2014 Jets: Report -- Rex & Idzik both to be let go

[tims4wins]

I think it is questionable at this point, actually.
 
His pass defense has gone from ranking #1 in passer rating against in 2009 to 31 this year: 1, 6, 3, 7, 20, 31.
 
His points against has gone from ranking #1 in 2009 to #25 this year: 1, 6, 20, 20, 19, 25.
 
His DVOA has gone from #1 in 2009 to #21 this year: 1, 5, 2, 9, 12, 21.
 
All of these stats have flaws, but there is clearly a trend there. I guess if he was a DC he wouldn't have to pay any attention to offense and special teams and media obligations and the like then maybe his defenses would be better, but he already basically pays no attention to offense and special teams.
 
He hasn't shown he can coach up a good defense without Revis, one of the greatest defensive players of all time.

 

[Toe Nash]

His team has also spent its first round picks on defense every year except when they got Sanchez, including two last year. When you use that many picks on D and it's the identity of your team it should be trending upward or remaining steady, not declining.
 
They're good against the run still, but that doesn't matter in 2014 (unless they were playing themselves). 

 

[Super Nomario]

I think it is questionable at this point, actually.
 
His pass defense has gone from ranking #1 in passer rating against in 2009 to 31 this year: 1, 6, 3, 7, 20, 31.
 
His points against has gone from ranking #1 in 2009 to #25 this year: 1, 6, 20, 20, 19, 25.
 
His DVOA has gone from #1 in 2009 to #21 this year: 1, 5, 2, 9, 12, 21.
 
All of these stats have flaws, but there is clearly a trend there. I guess if he was a DC he wouldn't have to pay any attention to offense and special teams and media obligations and the like then maybe his defenses would be better, but he already basically pays no attention to offense and special teams.
 
He hasn't shown he can coach up a good defense without Revis, one of the greatest defensive players of all time.

He hasn't shown he can coach up a defense that's really lacking in talent, just like every other coach ever. He's got a fine 3-man line, but is there anyone in the back 8 of that D would would start for the Patriots? They replaced Revis with a draft pick that struggled as a rookie (as most corners do) and has missed all but two games this year. His other top corner was allowed to walk after last year, leaving his top CBs as Darrin Walls and Antonio Allen. He's managed to generally put together a good pass rush despite never having an elite edge rusher.
 
You'd expect to see the defense seriously decline given the talent drain, much as the Patriots D declined when Seymour and Vrabel were traded, Bruschi and Harrison retired, and Samuel left.

 

[soxfan121]

I think it is questionable at this point, actually.
 
His DVOA has gone from #1 in 2009 to #21 this year: 1, 5, 2, 9, 12, 21.

 
True. It was not questionable before this point. And despite the grocery shopping issues SN pointed out above, they're STILL 21st this year. 
 
1, 5, 2, 9, 12, 21 (with massive injuries/roster issues) = great defensive coach

 

[Tony C]

 
You'd hire him because he's an awesome defensive coach.  If you don't think he's a great defensive coach then we'll just agree to disagree.

 
Fair enough to agree to disagree (and the Jets have had a relatively lucky year in re injuries, though unlucky in that the relatively few they did have struck an area of weakness -- but no "massive injuries").  There are a lot of smart coaches out there and I certainly count Rex among them. He can be a very good game planner and a very good motivator (though the flip of his motivation skills is his teams either seem to come out sky high or flat), but I also think he's very flawed even just as a DC. Others have pointed out the dropping ratings and that he's basically been as good (or bad) as his players -- name a coach who wouldn't say the same? But I think it's a bit more damning than that. First, to go back to him as a motivator, his oversized/blowhard personality is reflected by his teams -- way too inconsistent in performance and incredibly undisciplined. Second, his flaws on offense -- which no one disputes -- are replicated in how he coaches his defense. He wants a ground and pound offense and he's stressed getting great players on the DL to stop the rush, rather than pash rushers. Among DBs, he was a big proponent of Calvin Pryor as an old school rock em sock em safety with shaky coverage skills. Not that Idzik wasn't an idiot for going along with Rex on that, but again it shows a conception of football that is rooted in his dad's days not how football is played today. I disagree their defense isn't talented -- tons of picks and some really good players. They are weak among DBs, but that has a lot to do with the sort of players Rex has wanted (as opposed to the players he inherited). Three, the suggestion wasn't that just that he be DC, but rather 2nd in command to BB over both the DC and OC. Rex is a politician who leaks and spins like the best Washington D.C. spinmeisters out there. That undermines the organization as a whole and is simply something BB would never tolerate...and should never tolerate. Can you imagine going back to the bad old days when Ron Borges was a prized recipient of leaks? That's not how winning organizations are run.
 
He'll probably get a DC gig someplace, I don't doubt -- I imagine it'll be some place more desperate like a Jacksonville or Oakland or D.C. rather than a top-flight gig. I'd be surprised but not shocked if he gets an NFL head coaching job...again, in a league of Dan Snyder and others, can't say never. But people are vastly overrating him and overlooking how his flaws as a head coach are also flaws for a DC or a #2 man position.
 
That said, I think he'll be tremendously entertaining as a television commentator.

 

[Super Nomario]

Second, his flaws on offense -- which no one disputes -- are replicated in how he coaches his defense. He wants a ground and pound offense and he's stressed getting great players on the DL to stop the rush, rather than pash rushers. Among DBs, he was a big proponent of Calvin Pryor as an old school rock em sock em safety with shaky coverage skills. Not that Idzik wasn't an idiot for going along with Rex on that, but again it shows a conception of football that is rooted in his dad's days not how football is played today.

I don't know which moves are Rex' and which are the GMs, but whoever's making decisions, I don't think they've tried to build the run defense at the expense of the pass D. They used a first on Quentin Coples, but he hasn't lived up to their expectations as a pass rusher. They used firsts on corners Wilson and Milliner, but Wilson's been a disappointment and Milliner's been hurt this year. Their best picks (Wilkerson and Richardson) are good against both the run and the pass. And the jury's still out on Pryor - he's stronger against the run than the pass at this point of his career, but that's not uncommon for rookies and he's got the physical tools to be a dynamic two-way safety.
 
Moreover, you could levy some of the same criticisms against Belichick (or probably a lot of other coaches). Chandler Jones is basically the only successful edge rush pick in his entire tenure. The list of CB busts is pretty long. They used a first on Hightower and a second on Spikes, two big throwback LBs who struggle at times in coverage. The high picks at safety (Chung, Wilson, Meriweather) have pretty much all been SS types. It's pretty hard to draft or acquire great pass rushers or shutdown corners.

 

[Tony C]

No doubt, and just a ton of noise on this so not trying to pin all player decisions on Rex. I just think that just as support for both the Sanchize and ground and pound is a fair indictment of him on the O-side, Calvin Pryor as someone he supposedly strongly endorsed indicates an overly run-focused approach.
 
The broader issues in re him and the Pats are not player selection, but rather his inconsistencies, lack of discipline, and political ways.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

For those who regard Rex as a great defensive mind, what is it that he does schematically and strategically that you're seeing to base this opinion on. I only watch a handful of Jets games a year and besides the one tough game they usually play the Pats, I'm not seeing it. Someone break it down.

 

[Reverend]

For those who regard Rex as a great defensive mind, what is it that he does schematically and strategically that you're seeing to base this opinion on. I only watch a handful of Jets games a year and besides the one tough game they usually play the Pats, I'm not seeing it. Someone break it down.

 
Dark magic.

 

[Super Nomario]

For those who regard Rex as a great defensive mind, what is it that he does schematically and strategically that you're seeing to base this opinion on. I only watch a handful of Jets games a year and besides the one tough game they usually play the Pats, I'm not seeing it. Someone break it down.

Mark Schofield did a terrific job breaking some of this down earlier this year:
http://soshcentral.com/nfl/2014/10/14/rex-ryan-is-an-evil-genius-passing-preview-part-i/
http://soshcentral.com/nfl/2014/10/15/rex-ryan-plotting-against-the-patriots-passing-preview-part-ii/
 
 

No doubt, and just a ton of noise on this so not trying to pin all player decisions on Rex. I just think that just as support for both the Sanchize and ground and pound is a fair indictment of him on the O-side, Calvin Pryor as someone he supposedly strongly endorsed indicates an overly run-focused approach.

Again, I think you're being way harsh on Pryor. How many safeties are really solid as rookies? Have Clinton-Dix and Bucannon (the only other safeties to get much burn so far) been a lot better?

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Thanks guys. Missed that first time around. I was driving to Nashville that week for a McCartney concert with the kids.

 

[mcpickl]

 
True. It was not questionable before this point. And despite the grocery shopping issues SN pointed out above, they're STILL 21st this year. 
 
1, 5, 2, 9, 12, 21 (with massive injuries/roster issues) = great defensive coach

I'd say it's more that those stats = had the best cornerback on earth for the three stellar years at the beginning, doesn't have him for the last three middling years(save for 2 games in 2012) at the end. Says much more about the CB than the coach to me.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I'd say it's more that those stats = had the best cornerback on earth for the three stellar years at the beginning, doesn't have him for the last three middling years(save for 2 games in 2012) at the end. Says much more about the CB than the coach to me.

Bill belichick sucked in Cleveland! It's only because of Brady!!!!!






Spygate.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Don't forget hasn't won a Super Bowl without Charlie and Romeo

 

[mcpickl]

Bill belichick sucked in Cleveland! It's only because of Brady!!!!!






Spygate.

Not sure what the point is here.
 
Are you saying if people pointed out excellent offensive stats for the Patriots, those stats would be attributed more to Belichick being an offensive genius as opposed to Brady being a great QB as a comparison to Jets defensive stats and Rex/Revis?
 
Because I don't think that has ever happened.

 

[dcmissle]

I think the point is be wary of writing off a coach's accomplishments to a great player.

Everything great BB has done as a HC has been done with Brady. Everything. His record was mediocre in Cleveland, and he was 5 and 11 here in 2000. We don't know how BB would have fared these many years without Brady, and we may never know.

 

[Ed Hillel]

5-11 on a team he inherited that was 18 million over the cap with 38 men signed.

 

[Van Everyman]

Also, 2008, where he was 11-5 with a QB who has proven he is not starter material.

I'm not saying Brady is irrelevant to BB's success. But to suggest everything BB has done has been with his HOF QB simply isn't true.

 

[dcmissle]

To be sure, a quick turnaround. But one fueled by Brady.

There are no great coaches without great players. Even when Joe Gibbs won 3 SBs with 3 different non-HOF quarterbacks, he had terrific players on those teams. Walsh had Montana and Young. Parcells had Lawrence Taylor.

So when someone says, yeah but Rex had Revis, I yawn.

 

[dbn]

That's actually pretty funny. Somehow, the Jets have out dysfunctioned the Raiders. And if Idzik really thinks that Geno can be a starting QB in this league, he should be canned with Rex. Geno Smith's failure was the easiest thing to predict.

 
That deserves some love. It's funny because it's true.

 

[dcmissle]

FWIW, Francesa believes Idzik is gone too. We shall see.

 

[Tony C]

To be sure, a quick turnaround. But one fueled by Brady.

There are no great coaches without great players. Even when Joe Gibbs won 3 SBs with 3 different non-HOF quarterbacks, he had terrific players on those teams. Walsh had Montana and Young. Parcells had Lawrence Taylor.

So when someone says, yeah but Rex had Revis, I yawn.

 
How on earth is Rex comparable to any of those coaches, much less BB?

 

[mcpickl]

I think the point is be wary of writing off a coach's accomplishments to a great player.

Everything great BB has done as a HC has been done with Brady. Everything. His record was mediocre in Cleveland, and he was 5 and 11 here in 2000. We don't know how BB would have fared these many years without Brady, and we may never know.

Depends on the accomplishments no?
 
If Belichick just had three years where he had good offensive stats when Brady was his QB, then had three mediocre years of offensive stats without him I'd be attributing those offensive stats to the player more than the coach. Wouldn't the evidence point you in that direction?
 
I'm not even saying Rex is a bad defensive coach. I'm just saying the media almost unanimously touting him as a defensive genius is a bit much. Don't feel I'm stating anything outrageous there.

 

[jsinger121]

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/12/4/7335427/the-toxic-downfall-of-rex-ryans-jets

 

[dcmissle]

There is nothing outrageous here, and I'm obviously not comparing Rex as HC to any of the people I mentioned.  What I am cautioning against is holding Revis against Rex when evaluating Rex as a defensive coach.  If a vacancy opened on the Pats, I'd take him in a heartbeat.  I think he is far above average both motivationally and schematically. 

 

[Stitch01]

I think Rex has a decent chance to be a successful head coach again someday and is a very good defensive coordinator, but he's a godawful fit on the Patriots.
 
Revis caveats are sort of weak though, figuring out how to maximize a great players talents is a coaching skill and Id argue Rex did that with Revis/those defenses. 

 

[glennhoffmania]

Players haven't yet quit on Jets coach Rex Ryan, despite the 2-10 record and three months of truly awful football. But one veteran told Metro's Kristian Dyer this week that the organization's decision to start quarterback Geno Smith over Michael Vick was evidence that management “packed it in, waived the white flag, whatever you want to call it.”
 
The veteran player clarified his remarks a day later: “I wasn't trying to say that we've quit, that any of the players quit. I don't think any of us have quit in this [locker] room. But it seems like those above us, they've quit on this season. You can't do that. Players need to make a living, get stuff on tape, play for that next year.
 
"But it seems like that isn't important, that winning this year isn't a big deal to them anymore. Like they're already looking at 2015 and beyond. Maybe they felt that way earlier this year and stuff but I don't know.”
 

 
Link

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/12/4/7335427/the-toxic-downfall-of-rex-ryans-jets

 

 
Ryan all season long wanted a ground and pound offense. Mornhinweg is a West Coast offense traditionalist who believes the passing game is nearly always the answer. Ryan hired Mornhinweg before the 2013 season.

 
So tell me again why Rex is getting the soft hands treatment from the media? As much as they want to blame Idzik for a lot of this mess, Rex is a huge part of the problem as well.

 

[dcmissle]

Maybe because the media know Rex is dead man walking.  Were I a writer in that town, I too would have a red laser focused on Idzik.
 
What they need there is a total house cleaning and pressure on Woody to bring in and pay first rate people, starting with a GM.

 

[Reverend]

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/12/4/7335427/the-toxic-downfall-of-rex-ryans-jets

 
SSF may very well blow this up, frame it and hang it over his mantle.
 
It's incredible how many basic org theory things they have totally screwed up. I mean, right down to making the coaches insecure by contract. One of Belichick's advantages is that he has the best job security in the industry. Sure, he earned that through perennial success, but that success is also helped by him being able to think long term. Similarly, I heard on the radio the other day a guy explaining that Green Bay's "new" hurry up has been something they began installing three years ago. Longer time horizons allow for a different kind of decision making.
 
I'm having trouble grasping how the Jets manage to do everything wrong.

 

[luckiestman]

 
SSF may very well blow this up, frame it and hang it over his mantle.
 
It's incredible how many basic org theory things they have totally screwed up. I mean, right down to making the coaches insecure by contract. One of Belichick's advantages is that he has the best job security in the industry. Sure, he earned that through perennial success, but that success is also helped by him being able to think long term. Similarly, I heard on the radio the other day a guy explaining that Green Bay's "new" hurry up has been something they began installing three years ago. Longer time horizons allow for a different kind of decision making.
 
I'm having trouble grasping how the Jets manage to do everything wrong.

You shouldn't have any trouble at all. It starts at the top.

 

[Reverend]

You shouldn't have any trouble at all. It starts at the top.

I get that, but shouldn't there be a stopped clocked being briefly correct effect at some point?

 

[Super Nomario]

I get that, but shouldn't there be a stopped clocked being briefly correct effect at some point?

I think it was the back-to-back AFCCG appearances. Just gotta wait another 12 hours!

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

I get that, but shouldn't there be a stopped clocked being briefly correct effect at some point?

 
On January 16, 2011, the #6 seed NY Jets went into Foxborough to face the 14-2, #1 seed Patriots - who were favored by 9.5, employed a healthy and productive Rob Gronkowski, and had lost exactly one game since mid-September - and beat them 28-21.  I wish I could make that point more emphatically, but I don't know how.
 
We all want to forget about that nearly as much as we want to forget about Super Bowl AAAAAHHHSEIZURES... uh... where was I, yeah, we don't like to acknowledge that game.  Or the other loss the Pats had that season, or the previous season, or last season... but those all happened.  At the direction of Rex Ryan, in spite of all the dysfunction undermining him, and with Mark Fucking Sanchez as his quarterback.  And the last of which had no Revis and Geno 'Clueless' Smith at QB.  So despite all of that, it's been a long time since a coach had the kind of W-L record vs Bill Belichick that Rex Ryan owns.  It's not a fluke any more than our loss at the AFCCG was last season.
 
Rex's stopped clock has been right, way more than we're able to justify, even with the historically-great levels of rationalization power that this board has at its disposal.  If he had had a functional organization and a league-average QB at his disposal (who, to be fair, it's possible Sanchez was all along), god only knows what he could have done.  Basically, I think you're under-selling him.

 

[luckiestman]

 
On January 16, 2011, the #6 seed NY Jets went into Foxborough to face the 14-2, #1 seed Patriots - who were favored by 9.5, employed a healthy and productive Rob Gronkowski, and had lost exactly one game since mid-September - and beat them 28-21.  I wish I could make that point more emphatically, but I don't know how.
 
We all want to forget about that nearly as much as we want to forget about Super Bowl AAAAAHHHSEIZURES... uh... where was I, yeah, we don't like to acknowledge that game.  Or the other loss the Pats had that season, or the previous season, or last season... but those all happened.  At the direction of Rex Ryan, in spite of all the dysfunction undermining him, and with Mark Fucking Sanchez as his quarterback.  And the last of which had no Revis and Geno 'Clueless' Smith at QB.  So despite all of that, it's been a long time since a coach had the kind of W-L record vs Bill Belichick that Rex Ryan owns.  It's not a fluke any more than our loss at the AFCCG was last season.
 
Rex's stopped clock has been right, way more than we're able to justify, even with the historically-great levels of rationalization power that this board has at its disposal.  If he had had a functional organization and a league-average QB at his disposal (who, to be fair, it's possible Sanchez was all along), god only knows what he could have done.  Basically, I think you're under-selling him.

No, I disagree. Here is the problem, that game was Rex's Super Bowl. The Jets came out against the pats like they were playing for their lives, it didn't happen the very next week. Rex is way too emotionally imbalanced. I think his very high highs make people overlook his poor week in week out performance.

How long is Rex going to be able to pull the in spite of Sanchez card. I mean if Sanchez takes the Eagles to the Super Bowl is that over?

 

[steveluck7]

No, I disagree. Here is the problem, that game was Rex's Super Bowl. The Jets came out against the pats like they were playing for their lives, it didn't happen the very next week. Rex is way too emotionally imbalanced. I think his very high highs make people overlook his poor week in week out performance.
How long is Rex going to be able to pull the in spite of Sanchez card. I mean if Sanchez takes the Eagles to the Super Bowl is that over?

And that team only got into the playoffs because in November, the Lions had Suh attempt an XP, allowing the Jets to tie with a FG at the end of regulation.
Much of the lore of Rex was built on a house of cards and he has gotten a TON of mileage out of it.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

And I believe they made it to their first AFCCG under Rex because opponents missed 5 straight FGs. They made the most of their opps and for that they should be credited, but that success model wasn't sustainable and in the following years they more than proved it.

 

[dcmissle]

I don't care how they got in. They got in and beat a 14 and 2 Pats team playing at home in a freaking playoff game. And Rex frustrated the Pats offense again.

MDL is right. But we just Baghdad Bob that shit out of our memory banks.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I don't care how they got in. They got in and beat a 14 and 2 Pats team playing at home in a freaking playoff game. And Rex frustrated the Pats offense again.

MDL is right. But we just Baghdad Bob that shit out of our memory banks.

 
The five missed FGs was the previous year IIRC.
 
Pats played like shit in the 2011 game and Chung calling for, then fucking up the fake punt was likely the worst play in Patriots playoff history. Just a horrible time for the call, in the wrong place on the field, and then he dropped it on top of all that. I'm still actually shocked that BB brought Chung back this year (and that he's played well) because I've never forgiven him for that.
 
But again, who cares? That was 4 years ago and Rex has accomplished exactly nothing since and yet he's continuing to live off those two years as if he actually won the SB both times. Long story short, he's been a bad HC since and his teams have sucked since and discord and humiliation follow wherever both have gone. And any owner who's willing to hire him as a HC again immediately after this year is by definition an idiot. The guy needs serious time to learn what to do with an offense. Pete Carroll seems to be the poster boy for this "he sucked as a HC once but did great with another chance" idea but remember that Pete had to go back into the college ranks for a looooooooooong time, with great success, before getting another NFL shot.

 

[Reverend]

 
On January 16, 2011, the #6 seed NY Jets went into Foxborough to face the 14-2, #1 seed Patriots - who were favored by 9.5, employed a healthy and productive Rob Gronkowski, and had lost exactly one game since mid-September - and beat them 28-21.  I wish I could make that point more emphatically, but I don't know how.
 
We all want to forget about that nearly as much as we want to forget about Super Bowl AAAAAHHHSEIZURES... uh... where was I, yeah, we don't like to acknowledge that game.  Or the other loss the Pats had that season, or the previous season, or last season... but those all happened.  At the direction of Rex Ryan, in spite of all the dysfunction undermining him, and with Mark Fucking Sanchez as his quarterback.  And the last of which had no Revis and Geno 'Clueless' Smith at QB.  So despite all of that, it's been a long time since a coach had the kind of W-L record vs Bill Belichick that Rex Ryan owns.  It's not a fluke any more than our loss at the AFCCG was last season.
 
Rex's stopped clock has been right, way more than we're able to justify, even with the historically-great levels of rationalization power that this board has at its disposal.  If he had had a functional organization and a league-average QB at his disposal (who, to be fair, it's possible Sanchez was all along), god only knows what he could have done.  Basically, I think you're under-selling him.

 
I wasn't speaking to Rex's abilities as a coach but to the organizational dysfunction more broadly.
 
I mean, Rex hired an offensive coordinator with a philosophy 180 degrees opposed to what he wanted to do? Who does that? That's just weird.

 

[soxfan121]

 
I wasn't speaking to Rex's abilities as a coach but to the organizational dysfunction more broadly.
 
I mean, Rex hired an offensive coordinator with a philosophy 180 degrees opposed to what he wanted to do? Who does that? That's just weird.

 
Someone under orders? The news of both Idzik and Mornhinweg being hired broke on the 18th/19th of January. For all we know Rex was given a list of names, told to pick one and Mornhinweg was the least bad choice. Like Woody saying, "Idzik will take the job only if this guy is OC. And you (Rex) have to say it's your guy to the press."
 
Sparano was Rex's choiceno doubt about that; the 180 in philosophy, to me and despite press reports/statements to the contrary, feels like a "here's who you picked, Rex."

 

[Super Nomario]

 
I wasn't speaking to Rex's abilities as a coach but to the organizational dysfunction more broadly.
 
I mean, Rex hired an offensive coordinator with a philosophy 180 degrees opposed to what he wanted to do? Who does that? That's just weird.

I think SF121's point - that it's hard to know who's really calling the shots as far as these moves - is fair. Beyond that, it's worth noting that at the time they hired Mornhinweg, Sanchez was their QB, and he was a guy that most people thought would be better in a Walsh-style short passing offense. And a ground-and-pound philosophy is not inconsistent with a so-called "West Coast Offense": the Jets are 5th in run / pass ratio, and #1 (Seattle) and #4 (Kansas City) are also Walsh-tree offenses, as is Cleveland (#7) and Baltimore (#9).

 

[dcmissle]

If Rex hits the market and no team with a HC vacancy wants any part of him, that would be a reasonable assessment. Not necessarily right, or wrong, but quite defensible.

Just don't tell me that he is a blowhard with an outsized reputation who isn't gifted on the defensive side of the ball. There is too much history in NY, and certainly Baltimore before that for many years, to carry that argument. Billick and Harbaugh (for one year) had nothing to do with that defense

 

[Ed Hillel]

Just don't tell me that he is a blowhard with an outsized reputation who isn't gifted on the defensive side of the ball.

 
Has anyone actually said this?

 

[tims4wins]

I would. "Gifted" overstates it IMO

 

[Tony C]

Just don't tell me that he is a blowhard with an outsized reputation who isn't gifted on the defensive side of the ball. There is too much history in NY, and certainly Baltimore before that for many years, to carry that argument. Billick and Harbaugh (for one year) had nothing to do with that defense

 
well, this is 3 claims, really:
 
1: blowhard -- I don't think even his firmest defenders deny that the guy is a blabbermouth with a big ego. Beyond blowhard, the real problem with him is what a spinner/politician he is, constantly undermining those working with him. That takes blowhard in a very destructive direction.
 
2: outsize rep -- he's under .500 for his career and yet he still avoids criticism. There's only "firejohnidzik.com" even though Rex has been associated with this regime for much, much longer. This popular rep flows out of his popularity with the media, which has consistently ignored his role in the Jets' decline. One can parse forever how much credit a guy gets for the good (2 flukey playoff runs) and bad (a terrible run after he lost some key players), but bottom line no way his record is other than, at best, journeyman.
 
3: gifted on defensive side of ball: I guess tims4wins would agree with your claim some say he isn't gifted, but generally I think that's a bit of a strawman. My own call is that he does come up with some innovative defensive plans and can, at times, clearly a great motivator. So that = gifted to me. He has plenty of faults, though, even on the defensive side, so if by "gifted" you mean he deserves his defensive genius label, then no. He has gifts, but too many flaws, too.
 
The rubber hits the road in two ways:
 
1: should he replace MP as Pats' DC if he is fired? I say no way -- would be a disaster, and I think this points that he's "gifted but flawed, not "so gifted you must hire him." The same goes triple for being hired as the Pats' #2, as was suggested above -- that's pure insanity.
 
2: should he be hired elsewhere? As a HC only really as a PR move for a bad team. If I was Jacksonville and needed to get fannies in the seats I might hire him...but if I ever had players good enough to compete there I'd immediately fire him, too. As a DC, I could see more situations where he's as skilled or more than others so in the abstract he deserves those jobs....and is certainly qualified for them. That said, if I'm a HC or GM, do I really want him in house knowing what chaos he sows and how he can undermine those around him? Nope, but I could see a meddling owner -- in Oakland or Cleveland or D.C. -- overlooking that and wanting to bring in his outsized rep.

 

[tims4wins]

Right TonyC, I think is he an above average, good, defensive coach. Genius / gifted is way generous IMO. I'm not sure he is any better than a Romeo Crennel.

 

[Reverend]

 
Someone under orders? The news of both Idzik and Mornhinweg being hired broke on the 18th/19th of January. For all we know Rex was given a list of names, told to pick one and Mornhinweg was the least bad choice. Like Woody saying, "Idzik will take the job only if this guy is OC. And you (Rex) have to say it's your guy to the press."
 
Sparano was Rex's choiceno doubt about that; the 180 in philosophy, to me and despite press reports/statements to the contrary, feels like a "here's who you picked, Rex."

 
 

I think SF121's point - that it's hard to know who's really calling the shots as far as these moves - is fair. Beyond that, it's worth noting that at the time they hired Mornhinweg, Sanchez was their QB, and he was a guy that most people thought would be better in a Walsh-style short passing offense. And a ground-and-pound philosophy is not inconsistent with a so-called "West Coast Offense": the Jets are 5th in run / pass ratio, and #1 (Seattle) and #4 (Kansas City) are also Walsh-tree offenses, as is Cleveland (#7) and Baltimore (#9).

 
All of this simply amplifies my awe in how badly they are doing as an organization.

 

[soxfan121]

 
 
 
All of this simply amplifies my awe in how badly they are doing as an organization.

 
What do you expect from a U of A grad?

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

The Rex spin machine in full swing?

"Idzik has alienated staff, coaches"

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/11992642/new-york-jets-gm-john-idzik-alienates-staff-coaches