All about the gyroball - inside. Options

[gyroballerkyle]

Hello, everyone. I was introduced to this board from a friend on here, named "captainladdie." Of course, I had heard of the Red Sox SoSH board from various sources, not the least of which is havebatwilltravel.com.

Allow me to introduce myself: My name is Kyle Boddy, and I love baseball. I'm 23 years old, an aspiring amateur pitcher (ex-HS/College player), living in Seattle, self-employed, and I'm not really a Red Sox fan (I know, I know). I'm an A's/Indians fan, for the most part. I run the website baseballdelusions.com, which is currently being redesigned and will contain videos, pictures, blogs, and other information about amateur players looking to get a second shot at baseball and having fun.

I pitched in high school and college, but after shoulder troubles, I moved to second base and became a converted position player. I worked very hard at it, became a relatively good hitter with plus power and good walk rates, though my speed was always a factor. In the end, I finished up at a small D-III school, had a lot of fun, and eventually called it quits. I moved out to Seattle to start a business and rediscovered the love of baseball after agreeing to coach a Little League Juniors (age 13-14) team, and gave it a second shot at a local league here called the Puget Sound Senior Baseball League (PSSBL). While there, I played second base and got a shot at pitching, where I basically embarassed myself in my one stint (2 IP, 3 BB, 1 HB, 2 K, 0 H, 1 ER, SV), but had a lot of fun.

I entered the off-season on a strict training and diet regimen and have added significant lean mass to my frame and took pitching and hitting lessons from Jeff Petersen (Fresno Grizzlies) and Justin Drake (ex-UWash OF), respectively, at their training gym called Strike-Zone.

To say that my mechanics need improvement is an understatement, but I'm ridiculously dedicated and I'm giving my all to study and understand both the physical and mental sides of baseball. My lofty goals are to play at the semi-pro level, and one day become the AGM of a baseball team.

So, what does any of that have to do with the gyroball? Good question! As a faithful reader of Baseball Prospectus, I realized that Will Carroll had been posting quite a bit about kids he had trained to throw the gyroball. On a whim, I emailed him and asked if he could train me. After some discussion and negotiation, I ended up flying out to Indianapolis to meet him and talk shop and eventually learn how to throw the gyroball. Will's a great guy, and we talked about the idiocy of the Mariners' FO (the Vidro deal was new at the time), the Cubs, and other hilariously bad teams. He showed me how to throw the gyroball and corrected a few of many of my mechanical flaws, and I flew home to Seattle.

Let me start off by saying this: At the end of the day, the gyroball isn’t just another type of pitch. Technically, it is an off-speed pitch that can be effectively used to complement a pitcher’s pre-existing arsenal; however, the gyroball is not a singular pitch. In fact, the gyroball is (at least) four different pitches that we know about. It is a concept; one that requires different mechanics altogether.

Unlike the different “styles” of the changeup, the separate variations of the gyroball have wildly different results. The different types of changeups all have the same goal – to change speeds and to disrupt the timing of the hitter using the same arm action as the fastball. Each variation of the gyroball uses the same grip and a similar arm action, but the alignment of the baseball changes in each scenario – all of them for different situations.

Will also showed me the book of the gyroball, literally translated to mean "Original Form of the Demon Ball." It looks like this:



The book reads more like a college-level physics text than it does a baseball primer book, and translations are spotty at best. However, the concepts of the book are clear – the book was written to help explain the concept of “double-spin” mechanics, where the pitcher seeks to maximize efficiency through the firing of the hips and back leg in tandem with the arm action for all pitches. Various graphs and charts describe the “sneaky fast” release point theory, which explains the correlation between reaction time allotted to the batter and what the perceived speed is (regardless of actual radar gun speed).

Unfortunately, changing kanji characters over to English text is not as simple as plugging in the literal words that the characters represent. Unlike most European languages, which often port over to English with 95%+ efficiency, Asian languages rely heavily on context, culture, and a different thought process than the dominant one in Western civilization. Simply handing the book over to a translator who knows little about advanced physics and baseball won't do me any good – the output would simply cease to make sense.

“That’s nice, but what does it do and how do I throw it?”

While I can’t explain the concept of Magnus forces on a baseball to the layperson (largely stemming from the fact that I don’t understand them fully myself), I can describe the action of the gyroball as it is commonly thrown. As with all pitches, getting the release point out in front and a smooth transfer of weight with late shoulder rotation is necessary for optimal results.

The basic grip for the gyroball is held like a football with the ball between the ear and the hand and the index and middle fingers touching a seam where they are closest together on the baseball (think: two-seam fastball, at the seams – not across the seams). The thumb is positioned directly under the baseball. The gyroball is typically thrown from the same arm slot as any other pitch. After reading these sentences, you may be envisioning a slider grip, but it’s not. The hardest part of envisioning the gyroball grip without seeing it is the ability to grasp the concept of holding a baseball like a football.

When you deliver the pitch, all the motions should be the same as a normal pitch is thrown. However, when you are bringing the arm up to speed, the wrist never breaks at the release point. After throwing the pitch, your wrist will naturally pronate, just like a circle changeup. If this is all you did when throwing the gyroball, it would be an effective off-speed pitch with similar actions to a knuckleball. However, the real “magic” of the gyroball comes when you are at the release point with your wrist locked. As you are about to release the ball and your thumb comes off the ball, pull down with your index and middle fingers, imparting true gyroscopic spin on the ball. Again, remember the analogy to throwing a football – when you throw a football, you pull down with your fingers across the laces to impart spiral spin.

As the gyroball is thrown as described above, there will be no top, bottom, or side spin – the only spin will be gyroscopic in nature. Imagine that you put a dot in the middle of the baseball where the pitcher releases the ball. This dot will remain visible to you throughout the entire pitch!

The end result of this basic gyroball is a sharp, late drop in the strike zone, not unlike a very good sinker. The spin will not be recognizable to most hitters, since no other pitch is thrown with gyroscopic force.

Variations on a Theme: Gyroball Edition

As stated before, the gyroball can be thrown with multiple variations. There are at least four variations that are known using the standard gyroball grip (the two-seam variant), but experiments are being conducted by Americans on throwing it with a four-seam grip, amongst other changes.

The four known variations of the pitch involve tilting the hand inwards/outwards or angling it down/up with slight changes in arm action for all of the pitches. By slightly changing the arm action and the tilt of the baseball, it is possible to impart slight side or top spin in combination with gyroscopic forces. In doing so, strangely different results occur, including pitches that have what seem to be unnatural late sideways movement.

Again, little is known about the pitch due to the translation issues, but work is being done to complete the entire field of research of double-spin mechanics, not just the product which happens to be the gyroball.

After spending two days of pitching lessons and throwing well over 120 pitches from the mound and flat ground with my coach, I am extremely excited to continue the work on better understanding the gyroball and double-spin mechanics as a whole. It is obvious that despite all the brilliant minds flocking to baseball, we have yet to see a good explanation for many Japanese baseball concepts. It is this disconnect that leads me to believe that we will see extremely interesting developments as the MLB and the NPB continue to share players and coaches through the posting system, but that such developments will involve thousands, if not tens of thousands of translating and understanding Japanese concepts in general.

It is my opinion that the United States’ perceived dominance of baseball is no different than the previous domination the US clearly held in another sport 20 years ago – basketball. No one believed that a foreign team could stand up to the NBA’s best American players, but that idea has been firmly defeated in recent years. In fact, disparity in baseball is rapidly closing as we speak – the Japanese team won the World Baseball Classic, despite complaints by many that the WBC was largely set-up in favor of the United States with regard to pitching rules (limiting pitch counts for all teams and potentially allowing the dominating relievers of the United States to take over games).

Hearing comments such as “Japanese pitchers don’t throw nearly as hard as American pitchers,” “The level of play in Japan is equivalent to Triple-A in the United States,” or “Let’s see how Japanese pitchers deal with real talent in the MLB,” all remind me of the days of the NBA Dream Team, where the arrogance of the United States was swiftly crushed not two decades later. It is foolish to believe that we know everything there is to know about baseball, that raw velocity is king, and that no other country will catch up to us in the future. You need only look at the nation that won the true world championship of baseball tournament to see that the balance of power is shifting.

If you have any questions about the gyroball, or comments otherwise, I'd be more than willing to answer them. Fire away, and thanks for having me!

[leeharris]

Have you checked out "The Physics of Baseball" book (I'm sure you have). I know "The Physics of Golf" by Ted Jorgensen had some very clear explanations of the Magnus force on golf balls, it's not at all as complex as you might fear. Another basic reference is "The Mathematics of Projectiles in Sport". If I get a bit of time I'll flick through these again and pick out some useful diagrams and notes.

[smackdown924]

Welcome aboard, we sure are glad to have you. Keep us updated as to how the development of the pitch is going, and tell us how it goes if/when you use it in your baseball league! I am amazed that you got to meet Will and learn the Gyro, that really is awesome. Thanks for all that info, I can't wait to see your site w/ videos (of the gyro?).

I was fascinated by and agreed with everything you said, except the last part where you inclined that Japanese baseball is already on par with MLB because they won the WBC. Please, the best MLB players from the US weren't even on that team, not to mention that many of the best MLB players aren't FROM the US (Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Venezuela). I completely agree with you however that Japanese NPB is growing and evolving, and is rapidly advancing in terms of quality and skill toward MLB.

Could you go into more detail about the "various differences" between the different TYPES of Gyroball? I hadn't heard of them, I only thought there was 1 Gyro, and that the confusion was between people who thought it broke in on a righty and people (like Will) who claimed it broke away from righties.

[DJnVa]

But, but, but...the YouTube Scouting Service said...

Seriously though, have you had a chance to throw it to actual hitters yet? Either in a batting practice type of setting or otherwise?

Has there been any discussion on how quick hitters can adjust to this type of pitch, never having seen it before? It's been a while since a truly "new" pitch has been seen over here.

[exGloucester]

Thanks for the great post, especially the bit about the football grip - that helps a lot. You noted that hitters will have a hard time recognizing a gyro pitch coming at them because they havent seen it before, but to me it would seem that the odd rotation might make it easier to pick up. Any thoughts on that from the experience of the Japanese players?

[Ted Cox 4 presid...]

This makes for very interesting reading. Thanks for taking the time to write in such detail. I wonder how MLB pitching coaches, in general, are going to react, and I wonder whether the change of guard for the RS was in anticipation of these types of new and different techniques coming on to the scene.

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

BTF now has a discussion thread about this post.

One interesting note already: one poster says that the book on the gyroball translates to "The Truth of the Magic Pitch."

[Old Fart Tree]

Awesome stuff, Kyle. Thanks!

[Frisbetarian]

The basic grip for the gyroball is held like a football with the ball between the ear and the hand and the index and middle fingers touching a seam where they are closest together on the baseball (think: two-seam fastball, at the seams – not across the seams). The thumb is positioned directly under the baseball. The gyroball is typically thrown from the same arm slot as any other pitch. After reading these sentences, you may be envisioning a slider grip, but it’s not. The hardest part of envisioning the gyroball grip without seeing it is the ability to grasp the concept of holding a baseball like a football.

Welcome aboard, Kyle. Great stuff.

Did you throw a slider before you learned this pitch? If so, could you please elaborate on the differences between the pitches. What you describe above sounds very much like the way I was taught to throw a slider way back in the dark ages. Also, what speed is your gyroball thrown, i.e., is it faster than your curve, two seam fastball, etc.? Where would you rank it among pitches in terms of speed? Finally, have you seen any evidence that Matsuzaka throws this pitch?

Yo la tengo,
Fris

[dcb46]

Very interesting... perhaps you or someone else can clarify something that has been nagging at me. Virtually every discussion I have seen of the gyroball emphasizes that what is being sought is a "football spin," with the axis pointed horizontally toward home plate. But if you research what is being sought with the slider, the same football analogy comes up over and over. The tighter the football spin, the nastier the slider. See for example

http://www.webball.com/cms/page1999.cfm

I read somewhere that Steve Carlton's slider was so tight that the seams appeared like a dime on the front of the ball where they spun around the axis. Football spin.

So is a gyroball just a perfected slider? Is it really just a different way of delivering the ball -- achieving the same desired football spin through a different set of mechanics than is conventionally taught for the slider -- rather than a different spin?

If so, this would take a bit of the intrigue away from the pitch.

[dcb46]

Fris, believe it or not I did not see your post while I was composing mine.

[gyroballerkyle]

I was fascinated by and agreed with everything you said, except  the last part where you inclined that Japanese baseball is already on par with MLB because they won the WBC.  Please, the best MLB players from the US weren't even on that team, not to mention that many of the best MLB players aren't FROM the US (Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Venezuela).  I completely agree with you however that Japanese NPB is growing and evolving, and is rapidly advancing in terms of quality and skill toward MLB.

I don't believe the MLB and the Nippon league are on par; just that Japanese baseball is rapidly approaching parity, and that American ignorance of Japanese computer simulations and research into baseball isn't doing us any favors.

Could you go into more detail about the "various differences" between the different TYPES of Gyroball? I hadn't heard of them, I only thought there was 1 Gyro, and that the confusion was between people who thought it broke in on a righty and people (like Will) who claimed it broke away from righties.

There are four types of gyroballs - at least. They are all held with the same basic grip, but by altering the tilt of the wrist and slight changes to the arm action, you can produce wildly different results.

[Smiling Joe Hesk...]

Kyle, would it be possible to post some pictures of the grip on the basball for the gyro? I think in this case showing folks how one grips it may be a lot clearer than trying to describe it.

Also, what is the difference between throwing a gyroball and the more ordinary slider? Folks over at BTF are saying it sounds like the same grip and the same arm action.

[gyroballerkyle]

But, but, but...the YouTube Scouting Service said...

Seriously though, have you had a chance to throw it to actual hitters yet?  Either in a batting practice type of setting or otherwise?

Has there been any discussion on how quick hitters can adjust to this type of pitch, never having seen it before?  It's been a while since a truly "new" pitch has been seen over here.

I have thrown the pitch to hitters, but not in a game setting - it's the offseason here and I'm actually about to head to baseball workouts right now! Most of the hitters I work with say the pitch resembles a good sinker for the most part. I taught my friend a variation on the gyroball, and he throws the sinker-variant (which is achieved by tilting the hand down slightly).

While his velocity is slow and it's still very raw, he gets good tight bullet-spin on the pitch here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74lawNUgYLw

You can somewhat see the resemblence of this pitch and some of Matsuzaka's gyroballs.

[gyroballerkyle]

BTF now has a discussion thread about this post.

One interesting note already: one poster says that the book on the gyroball translates to "The Truth of the Magic Pitch."

I will address more questions when I return from baseball workouts, but I wanted to make sure I got to this one: The translation of the book has come to mean a lot of things. If you take it literally, it means "Demon Pitch." However, kanji is a weird character set, and by taking it into context, I have gotten a lot of results ranging from Magic Pitch to Miracle Ball.

[86spike]

you got any youtubes of yourself throwing the 4 different pitches?

Interesting stuff

[kazuneko]

I will address more questions when I return from baseball workouts, but I wanted to make sure I got to this one: The translation of the book has come to mean a lot of things. If you take it literally, it means "Demon Pitch." However, kanji is a weird character set, and by taking it into context, I have gotten a lot of results ranging from Magic Pitch to Miracle Ball.

Though I am not sure if the exact English translation of this is really that neccesary I can explain some of the issues involved.
A large percentage of Japanese words are made up of two logographic characters (called kanji in Japanese but actually of Chinese origin). One interesting part of compound character words in Japanese is that they make creating new words that combine multiple ideas relatively simple. Japanese simply take one logogram associated with one meaning and combine it with another logogram associated with another meaning and through this develop words that represent new but understandable compound ideas. In the book title the first word of the title is this type of created word and as such is based on two common characters. The first of these logograms is a character most commonly used in the words "demon" and "magic" . The second character is is most commonly used in the word "ball" and "baseball" and in this context clearly refers to the latter.
The second word is a standard Japanese 2 character compound word. The first of the characters is most associated with the meaning "correct" and the second is most commonly associated with the meaning "form" or "body". Taken together they make a word that means "actual form" or "true form" or even "original form".
As a rule I think direct translation like this is interesting but relatively unimportant. If one wanted to directly translate this the words "magic ball" or "demon ball" and "actual form" or "true form" might all work equally well, but in reality all these phrases sound awkward in English and through this awkwardness impart an exotic quality to the translation that does not exist in the original Japanese. As the term gyroball is now widely understood in baseball circles I think the most fitting translation would be something along the lines of "The Truth about the Gyroball" .

This post has been edited by kazuneko: Jan 9 2007, 08:35 PM

[dcb46]

Well the suggestion it moves like a sinker has me completely flummoxed, because the other descriptions of the gyroball have it moving (for a RHP) sharply away from a RHB. The prototypical sinkers I have seen (Bob Stanley and DLowe at their best) did not move anything like that. Nor do I understand that sinkerballers attempt to put a football spin on the ball. The discussions of the Magnus effect I have seen do not suggest that a ball with a football spin will move like a sinker. So I hope we can get this clarified.

[smackdown924]

There are four types of gyroballs - at least. They are all held with the same basic grip, but by altering the tilt of the wrist and slight changes to the arm action, you can produce wildly different results.

This is most interesting indeed. If a pitcher became a master of the Gyro, he could throw the same pitch and get 4 different results.... puzzling for a batter. Could you please go into more detail about the 4 different types of gyroballs, the differences in wrist and arm action, and what exactly are the "wildly different results" of each variant?

EDIT:
may have found some answers in this vid (of you, apparently) throwing gyroball variants:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4m8w3LcmwU&mode=user&search=

This post has been edited by smackdown924: Jan 9 2007, 05:08 PM

[gyroballerkyle]

Well the suggestion it moves like a sinker has me completely flummoxed, because the other descriptions of the gyroball have it moving (for a RHP) sharply away from a RHB.  The prototypical sinkers I have seen (Bob Stanley and DLowe at their best) did not move anything like that.  Nor do I understand that sinkerballers attempt to put a football spin on the ball.  The discussions of the Magnus effect I have seen do not suggest that a ball with a football spin will move like a sinker.  So I hope we can get this clarified.

By removing the x/y axes from the ball's spin, we remove the lift force from the equation of the pitch. As a result, the pitch behaves like a dead ball / drop ball - perhaps the term "sinker" was a poor one.