2016-2017 NC Hoops: Heel Turn

Grin&MartyBarret

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Time to retire, Mike, your self-centered strategies aren't working any more.

Other than Kyrie, has there been a Duke player than didn't underperform NBA expectations in the last 10 years?
Seth Curry wasn't supposed to be an NBA player. He's turned into a good player in Dallas.

Rodney Hoods a very good two way player on a very good playoff team. He was drafted late in the first, where many guys don't end up rotation players let alone very good players.

None of the Plumlees had big expectations, they've turned themselves into career NBA players. Same with Lance Thomas and Josh McRoberts. And those are just current guys.

Carlos Boozer also comes to mind as a 2nd round pick who made multiple all star teams.

I'm not a Duke guy or anything, but the knock on Duke guys in the NBA has always seemed overblown to me. I mean, who is the best UNC guy in the NBA currently? Harrison Barnes? Danny Green?
 

Greg29fan

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I've had to write President Donald Trump in sentences and that's still not as surprising as typing Luke Maye, most outstanding player in a regional final. Unbelievable.

Kids showed so much heart and determination tonight and played their guts out. Joel sprained his ankle again in practice yesterday and the other one today and he competed his tail off. Couldn't be any happier for all of them that they get a chance to go back to the Final Four.
 

garlan5

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UVA is also having transfer issues with Marial Shayok, Darius Thompson, and Jared Rueter all departing the program. Maybe Bennett to Indiana is happening.
I would have replied on this earlier but Bennett wasn't and isn't going anywhere for a while. Shayok is the only major loss but he's wanted to leave for the last two years. He wants to be the guy with the ball every play and he couldn't be that at Uva. He was too inconsistent. Reuter will be a force at a somewhere like odu but he's too short to compete in the acc. Thompson will be the same at a non acc school. All three were going to get less minutes likely due to next year's kids. Jay Huff and Deandre Hunter come to mind.
Edit : last time uva had transfer "issues" they went on to win the acc
 

JShams

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The Boston Globe sports editor was just on Toucher and Rich and when asked about NBA talent on teams said Kennedy Meeks is probably the only player on Carolina that would be able to make an impact in NBA.

I assume this was one of their "joke" interviews, otherwise this guy hasn't watched one minute of college basketball in the last 15 years.
 

Greg29fan

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Fair enough garlan. I did see his name in the IU rumor mill, but obviously they went in another direction.
 

uk_sox_fan

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Props to Carolina from a Duke alum - that was a fantastic win last night (and worth staying up till 12:30am to see the end - sucks to be across the Pond sometimes though). Maye and Berry are really likeable players that even a die-hard Dukie can enjoy watching - when they're playing outside of the ACC anyways...

On the rest of the recent posts since I visited last - it's truly amazing to see the level of hate for Krzyzewski on a site where the consensus opinion is that Patriots/Belichick-haters are just jealous morons that refuse to acknowledge genius. To me they're the two greatest coaches I've ever witnessed and they operate in sports where the Head Coach has far more influence on the success of a program than virtually any other (obviously NCAAF is at least as much as NCAAB and NFL but beyond those 3 I think no other sport comes close). Of course I would have wanted Duke to go further in the Tournament, but they're achievements in Brooklyn so far exceeded expectations that I was happy overall with what they were able to achieve and overcome this season. In many ways a season spent overcoming adversity and ultimately succumbing is more compelling than what the season looked like it was going to be last Summer (a 1991 UNLV/2015 UK attempt at history).

For next year I think we've got as good a chance as anyone. Jefferson and Jones have graduated, Tatum's going pro and Jeter is transferring (he's said it's to be closer to home which is understandable given the frustration he must have felt as he started the year looking like he was going to expand his role significantly only to suffer a herniated disc and miss the rest of the year but if the haters want to say it's because his coach refused to put him out there when he couldn't practice who am I to argue).

The maybes for the draft are Giles, Allen, Kennard, Bolden and Jackson. each guy's situation is different:
Giles should be able to get some intel onto where he would be drafted if he goes this year - it's probably going to be just outside the lottery and so the amount of money he'll lose relative to what he thought he was going to be able to command (high lottery) is at least $10 million over 2 years http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/06/21/why-second-round-nba-draft-picks-might-get-paid-more-than-first-rounders-this-year/. If he feels that he can get back to those expectations with a successful 2nd year he should take out an insurance contract against injury and stay. If it's too much of a risk that even without injury his stock continues to fall then maybe he should go. I think it's 50/50.

Allen's stock has slipped from ~24th - 28th (most estimates last year) to early- to mid-2nd round now, but the way the NBA CBA works he wouldn't make too much less and could either stand to make more if he plays in the 2R. http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/06/21/why-second-round-nba-draft-picks-might-get-paid-more-than-first-rounders-this-year/ What should matter to him is a) can he have the season next year that he dreamed of having this year if he comes back and b) is he still learning/improving his game? He needs to make sure he does everything possible to maximise his chances of making a team and finding a productive role and whether that means staying 1 more year or leaving now could go either way.

Bolden would be drafted 100% on potential and so I don't see him going earlier than early 2nd. It's too bad that he hurt himself before the season started and never found a role, but unless Duke signs Mo Bamba he's likely to get plenty of PT next year, especially with Jeter and Jefferson gone. If Giles goes too it'll be a no-brainer as Wendell Carter and Bolden would share the duties up front with Vrankovic coming in to spell them, but even with Giles it seems there will be enough PT to go around.

Frank Jackson made a splash both early and late as an explosive combo-guard. His skills at point still need work but it's possible that he has attracted enough attention that he could command a slot at the end of the 1st round. I'd put his odds of declaring at about 30% and of actually leaving at about 20%.

Finally, Luke Kennard looked to be in a good position to go until his miracle season seemed to come off the rails in the 2 games of the NCAAT. Still, I doubt 2 games alters the opinion of NBA scouts overly much so I would expect him to at least declare and test the waters and let the opinions of scouts guide his decision. Having Kennard and Allen in the backcourt again alongside Jackson, Gary Trent Jr, and likely a true star PG in Trevon Duval would put the Devils back in the Top 5 to start the year.

But in the meantime, the floor still belongs to UNC. They beat UK for me (and won me £100, tyvm!) so my once every 20 years or so of rooting for them (last and only other game I remember pulling for them was vs the Fab 5 in '93) so has ended in success as far as I'm concerned. They upheld the reputation of the ACC (on the floor anyways) in a year when the ACC had been humiliated but I wouldn't be sad to see them fall to the Ducks or, better yet, the Zags in the Finals. But congratulations for your 20th Final Four Tarheels fans - it may be a while before you get there again.
 

garlan5

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Fair enough garlan. I did see his name in the IU rumor mill, but obviously they went in another direction.
He was also in the Illinois rumor even heavier before the IU rumor. Same as Wisconsin and Texas years before. I guess a good coach will get those rumor mills thing for a while. Thankfully he and his wife love Charlottesville and money isn't his primary goal even though UVA athletic fund has the money to match anyone
 

Drocca

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But congratulations for your 20th Final Four Tarheels fans - it may be a while before you get there again.
People say this every year. Perhaps it will be true next year. We've been in 25% of the Final Fours EVER which is really astonishing. I know it's sort of human nature to assume that if you win the the preseason that will carry over but I'm starting to sense that's not the case.
 

deythur

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People say this every year. Perhaps it will be true next year. We've been in 25% of the Final Fours EVER which is really astonishing. I know it's sort of human nature to assume that if you win the the preseason that will carry over but I'm starting to sense that's not the case.
Im not sure I know exactly what you meant by the bolded and I apologize if I took it the wrong way. This is about the 5th or 6th post in this thread referring to the pre season hype and Duke's "failure" to win another title. Any school with that class and returning players would have been thinking the same thing. (see Kentucky almost every year)

Combine that with "time to retire Mike" and "your strategies don't work anymore" and it gets real confusing as people seem to have some real short memories.

Lets not forget the 2 titles in the last 6 years and 3 in 16. Only UConn matches those numbers. Duke also carries the best winning percentage in tourney history. They were also the favorite to win this years tourney when it began.

Did this season turn out how many expected? No. Dont get it wrong though, things are just fine in Durham.

Now go bring that title back to the ACC.
 
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BigSoxFan

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Lets not forget the 2 titles in the last 6 years and 3 in 16. Only UConn matches those numbers.
Of course, if you go back 2 more years, UConn does more than match those numbers.

As an outsider to this Duke/UNC rivalry, I'm interested in seeing where it goes once Coach K and Roy hang it up.
 

Drocca

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I live in Raleigh. Things are fine here, I suppose. But it doesn't have anything to do with Duke or Carolina. I was not referencing the preseason hype of Kevin Keatts.
 

SumnerH

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As an outsider to this Duke/UNC rivalry, I'm interested in seeing where it goes once Coach K and Roy hang it up.
Duke especially. UNC won before Dean and after, they may have some down periods but they're more likely to weather a coaching change. I suspect Duke will as well, but their dominance is almost exclusively under K.
 

uk_sox_fan

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Of course, if you go back 2 more years, UConn does more than match those numbers.
So you're saying taking the 21st Century as a cut-off is arbitrary so you go back to 19 years as a less biased cut-off?

How about since the Tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985 (past 33 seasons)?

Top 5 (plus UConn) of Appearances:
Duke (32), Kans (32)
Ariz (31)
UNC (30)
UK (28)
...
UConn (20)

Top 5 (plus UConn) of Sweet 16s:
Duke (23)
UNC (22)
Kans (21)
UK (20)
Ariz (17)
...
UConn (14)

Top 5 of Elite 8s:
UNC (17)
UK (16)
Duke (14), Kans (14)
Ariz (10), UConn (10)

Top 6 of Final Fours:
Duke (12)
UNC (11)
UK (8), Kans (8)
Mich St (7)
UConn (5)

Top 5 of Championship Finals:
Duke (9)
UK (5), Kans (5)
UNC (4*)
UConn (4), Mich (4)

Top 5 of National Championships:
Duke (5)
UConn (4)
UNC (3*)
UK (3)
Kans (2), Flor (2), LU (2), Vill (2)

*UNC could add a finals and a Championship to their total next week.
 

BigSoxFan

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So you're saying taking the 21st Century as a cut-off is arbitrary so you go back to 19 years as a less biased cut-off?

How about since the Tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985 (past 33 seasons)?

Top 5 (plus UConn) of Appearances:
Duke (32), Kans (32)
Ariz (31)
UNC (30)
UK (28)
...
UConn (20)

Top 5 (plus UConn) of Sweet 16s:
Duke (23)
UNC (22)
Kans (21)
UK (20)
Ariz (17)
...
UConn (14)

Top 5 of Elite 8s:
UNC (17)
UK (16)
Duke (14), Kans (14)
Ariz (10), UConn (10)

Top 6 of Final Fours:
Duke (12)
UNC (11)
UK (8), Kans (8)
Mich St (7)
UConn (5)

Top 5 of Championship Finals:
Duke (9)
UK (5), Kans (5)
UNC (4*)
UConn (4), Mich (4)

Top 5 of National Championships:
Duke (5)
UConn (4)
UNC (3*)
UK (3)
Kans (2), Flor (2), LU (2), Vill (2)

*UNC could add a finals and a Championship to their total next week.
Sigh, I was just busting your balls (I hate UConn)...

I think timsforwins might be the only chill Duke fan alive.
 

IdiotKicker

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Duke especially. UNC won before Dean and after, they may have some down periods but they're more likely to weather a coaching change. I suspect Duke will as well, but their dominance is almost exclusively under K.
The resurgence the last few years has largely been due to the recruiting from Capel. While K is obviously a massive piece, I think there is far greater involvement from assistants in the last 5-7 years than at any time previously.
 

uk_sox_fan

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Sigh, I was just busting your balls (I hate UConn)...

I think timsforwins might be the only chill Duke fan alive.
Nah - I wasn't wound up. I just like to look up that stuff (Top 5 results) and post it somewhere so I can find it later.

If I were really all tight do you think I would have said how much I enjoyed Carolina's win on Sunday and called them 'really likeable players'?
 

Drocca

darrell foster wallace
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Perhaps we should start a 2017/2018 thread for the Duke fans to follow their transfers, early entries and recruits and us Carolina fans can continue following basketball games (as our season marches on).
 

tims4wins

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Sigh, I was just busting your balls (I hate UConn)...

I think timsforwins might be the only chill Duke fan alive.
HA. Thanks. Years of many consecutive Sweet 16 losses (2002-200?) settled me quite a bit. That and of course growing up on the Sox and realizing the other shoe can fall at any minute.

I also went to school during a unique point in time where Maryland was a bigger rival than UNC (I was there 99-03). I don't hate UNC, never have. I respect their style and program and generally like how they play. I despise some other teams in the league like Wake and Georgia Tech, and hate Maryland beyond any other school in the country.
 

tims4wins

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Perhaps we should start a 2017/2018 thread for the Duke fans to follow their transfers, early entries and recruits and us Carolina fans can continue following basketball games (as our season marches on).
I think I have started the last 2 or 3 seasons... will let you bear the torch for 2017-2018, if you wish
 

rhopkins2323

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Better than Hicks' ratio lately.
I mentioned Hicks in another post, but I am at a loss as to what is happening with Hicks. There seems to be no effort at all. Not only is he not scoring, but he has 1 rebound in the last 2 games....and that's in 37 minutes of play!!!

By my eye, his defense has been just as bad. He's constantly in bad position. He just doesn't move his feet well which allows other bigs to get to an easy spot to score or get fouled.

He's a senior playing with no energy. Roy needs to figure out how to get some production out of him. Or let's hope Luke Maye keeps putting up 15 and 10 type nights.
 

Drocca

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Checked in to see what Duke fans are up to at TDD and they are already counting Duval, Bamba and Knox as done deals and inserting them in their lineups. The word over there is that Boldin, Allen, Kennard & Jackson stay and they add those three recruits plus the two top ten guys already signed - Trent & Carter. That means they will have upperclassman AND five of the top ten recruits coming in. It looks to be another historic team, should be a lot of fun for Duke fans.

With the season still going on for us I haven't peeked much at the high school players coming, but I know Raymond Felton's nephew is our only decently ranked recruit and he's mid-twenties. We are getting killed in the pre-season again.
 

Greg29fan

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Is he taking the #5 from Bradley?
Probably, Tony likes #4 and that will be available next season.

Sounds like C.B. McGrath, one of Carolina's assistants, is likely to take the UNC-Wilmington job, so a staff position could be coming open this year. I hope they pursue Jerry Stackhouse heavily.
 
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Drocca

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For Stackhouse to take it I'd think a more or less deal would have to be at least verbally agreed upon for him to be next in line and I don't see Roy doing that to Coach Rob, Hubert and others like Hasse, McGrath in his little tree. Stackhouse is probably 3 years away from an NBA head coaching gig and it would be hard for me to see him take an assistant role in college right now though of course I would love it. I think it goes to Bobby Frasor or Sean May.
 

Greg29fan

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Been hoping and praying since 4/4/16 that they could get another shot at it. They managed to get there. Can't wait.
 

rhopkins2323

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This is a tough matchup for UNC. Meeks doesn't have an advantage in this game. I can't see UNC getting a lot of points in the paint. Guards will have to pick up a lot of the scoring.

Guarding the paint will be big. Meeks and Hicks will be more important on D than offense.
 

Greg29fan

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This is a tough matchup for UNC. Meeks doesn't have an advantage in this game. I can't see UNC getting a lot of points in the paint. Guards will have to pick up a lot of the scoring.

Guarding the paint will be big. Meeks and Hicks will be more important on D than offense.
On the other hand, it's a tough matchup for them too, and they haven't played a team of Carolina's quality in months.
 

Ale Xander

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Been hoping and praying since 4/4/16 that they could get another shot at it. They managed to get there. Can't wait.
Likewise, (since BC had no chance) but was hoping the opposition was a less likeable team to root against
 

rhopkins2323

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On the other hands, it's a tough matchup for them too, and they haven't played a team of Carolina's quality in months.
Oh, I agree. And I think UNC should win. Their toughest matchup will be Jackson. If Jackson can get free, I think UNC finds a way to win.

Will be interesting to see how both teams defend.
 

Greg29fan

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One thing that sticks out is when they played West Virginia, who was the #5 offensive rebounding team in the country, WVU grabbed 20 offensive boards on them. Now, UNC is #1 in that statistic, so that's something that has me very optimistic and something they need to dominate on Monday to win the title.

Even South Carolina grabbed 13 on them tonight, with Silva getting six by himself.
 

BigSoxFan

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Congrats to all the Tarheels fans on here. You can now watch the Jenkins shot without puking.

Poor DukeSox won't be able to post here for months
 

Greg29fan

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Without Kansas 08 there isn't 09
Without Villanova 16 there isn't 17

Not the best UNC team ever but they are the toughest bunch of kids to ever don Carolina Blue. So happy for everybody and for Roy and what a way for C.B. McGrath to head off to UNC Wilimington.
 

Ale Xander

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Congrats to all the Tarheels fans on here. You can now watch the Jenkins shot without puking.

Poor DukeSox won't be able to post here for months
Fuck Nova

Would much rather have beaten them than Zag Nation

Especially for Paige and Few
 

rhopkins2323

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It's definitely easier to take. I'll still change the channel the same way I change when the Tyree catch is on, but I can at least talk about it without puking lol.

I'm happy Hicks came through. He would have been ripped for a while for how poorly he played.

Roy doesn't always get a ton of credit, but this might be the best job he's ever done. I've slammed him in the past for some of his teams being soft and not getting the most out of them, but he really got this team to play. He is now clearly one of the best coaches ever.
 

JShams

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Loving the scenes from franklin street. What a season.

It is fun to go back and read the first few pages of this thread.
 

Drocca

darrell foster wallace
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Loving the scenes from franklin street. What a season.

It is fun to go back and read the first few pages of this thread.
I watched the game in Chapel Hill at my best friend's house, a few blocks from Chapel Hill, with the guy who I go to the games with. As soon as the game ended I had to hug it out and then hightail it out of there because I'm too old to get caught up in Franklin St. b.s. But God I love the pictures.
 

IdiotKicker

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That's a good win right there. Congrats to all the UNC fans, it is still always good to see the ACC do well in the tourney. Tomorrow, I hate you again.