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2016-2017 NC Hoops: Heel Turn

Discussion in 'College Sports' started by tims4wins, Apr 5, 2016.

  1. OilCanShotTupac

    OilCanShotTupac Sunny von Bulow Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I walked by Barclays Center yesterday and was stunned to see that this tournament was there (I hadn't been paying attention).

    Why????

    Just a money grab for being in a big market? I don't think anyone cared, since I pay a decent amount of attention to local media and the fact of this tournament taking place ten minutes from my home never surfaced.

    OT, but the de-emphasis on traditional geography in college sports sucks. There is no reason to have this tournament in Brooklyn.
     
  2. Greg29fan

    Greg29fan Member SoSH Member

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    Whether traditionalists like me like it or not, the ACC now extends into the northeast, and teams like Syracuse and BC should get a chance to have the tournament closer to their homes. We have as many teams in New York as the new Big East does, so "expanding the footprint" out of Greensboro and Charlotte is important to the viability of the league.
     
  3. Average Reds

    Average Reds Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    This is accurate, but incomplete.

    Basically, the collapse of the Big East and the expansion of the Big 10 and ACC have created a situation where these conferences are trying to make inroads into seemingly "foreign" territory to support the media ventures of each league. (The Big 10 has their own cable network and I believe that the ACC is launching their own network in partnership with ESPN.)

    So the Big 10 tourney is in DC and the ACC is in NY. Which sucks, IMO but reflects the new reality.
     
  4. OilCanShotTupac

    OilCanShotTupac Sunny von Bulow Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Syracuse or Boston =/= Brooklyn, and St. John's is in New York City and traditionally plays at MSG, as you know. Syracuse is not a New York City team. Yes, Syracuse has a good fanbase in NYC. No, Brooklyn is not a home game for Syracuse.

    I know this is "get off my lawn" territory, but having the tournament in Syracuse or Boston would be perfectly fine, insofar as this geographically awkward conference has schools there. But this business of just picking Big Media Market, regardless of tradition or geography, is going to weaken (has already done) the appeal of college sports, which is rooted in - geography and tradition.

    I know that many schools have one-off games in NYC and other big cities. That's not what this is.
     
  5. DukeSox

    DukeSox Rick Derris SoSH Member

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    It's easy to fly to NYC from anywhere. There are lots of schools in the conference now - it's easy for fans.
     
  6. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    And if you want to have some entertainment outside of the games, we're talking NYC vs. Greensboro here. Easy solution is a rotation among 3-4 cities.
     
  7. Greg29fan

    Greg29fan Member SoSH Member

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    Syracuse v. UNC-Greensboro (in Syracuse) in round one of the NIT cause that shit's just funny.
     
  8. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    Go Greensboro
     
  9. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    That is incredible
     
  10. garlan5

    garlan5 Member SoSH Member

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    so fitting for that ass
     
  11. rhopkins2323

    rhopkins2323 lurker

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    Damn, this team can be bad at times. Feels good to survive though.

    When they don't get it inside and are kept off of O boards, they have stretches where they are completely lost. Ball doesn't move and every shot is contested. Exactly what happened vs Duke in ACC tournament. Thank God Arkansas doesn't have 5 good players on the court and can make plays on offense like Duke or this would have been an L.
     
  12. Drocca

    Drocca darrell foster wallace SoSH Member

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    A truly shocking day yesterday. Due to the enormous expectations this team had (most celebrated Freshman class ever combining forces with pre/season national player of the year, Kennard + Jefferson) I don't think we can chalk this up to just another VCU, Mercer, Lehigh situation. This was an historic upset.
     
  13. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    Ha. We'll take our medicine.

    Will be a fascinating offseason. Allen's stock fell. Kennard may be a borderline first round pick but he was so bad in the tournament that probably hurt his stock. Obviously Tatum is gone, Matt Jones and Jefferson graduated. I think Frank Jackson stays although I wouldn't be stunned if he went pro. Giles I have absolutely no idea what happens. Bolden I anticipate a transfer. Even if he transfers they could potentially return a starting 5 of Jackson-Kennard-Allen-Giles-Jeter.
     
  14. rhopkins2323

    rhopkins2323 lurker

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    Clearly Miracle on Ice level. Duke essentially starts 5 NBA All-Stars while I'm not sure anyone at USC could sniff the Duke roster.

    And by NBA all-stars, I really mean future Liga all-stars.
     
  15. johnmd20

    johnmd20 voice of soccer Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Thornwell could probably sniff the roster. And the line was 6.5. It's not even remotely in the same breath as something like miracle, where the US was probably a 10-1 shot in that game.
     
  16. rhopkins2323

    rhopkins2323 lurker

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    It was all sarcasm directed at the Dukies who felt they were guaranteed to win the championship because they read articles and watched Youtube videos on the incoming freshman class.
     
  17. johnmd20

    johnmd20 voice of soccer Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I should have figured. Duke is the worst, their fans are the worst(worse than Drocca, which is saying something) so their loss made me really happy and I wanted to mock them more.
     
  18. rhopkins2323

    rhopkins2323 lurker

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    Has there been any rumors of Bolden transferring? I know it was a rough year for the kid, but he's only a frosh.

    I'm not sure Jackson would get drafted. I would say he's back. Giles needs to test where he's at. If anyone is willing to take him first round, he needs to take it. He has a history of knee injuries and didn't play well. He's risking not being a 1st round pick in 2018 if he stays. Take the money.

    If Kennard and GA stay, Duke is a top 10 team again. I think the class you're bringing in is a little more polished than this past year's group.
     
  19. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    No rumors on Bolden, but he barely got on the court. He can't have been happy for a top 10 recruit or whatever he was.

    I hope you are right on Jackson. I think he could be a great college player.

    And I totally agree on Giles - if he is a first round pick he should probably just take the $$ - with the caveat that if he knows he wasn't back to full health, but fully believes that he will be back in 2018, then he may consider staying to become a likely lottery if not top 5-10 pick. It's hard to believe he could get there. But we see it all the time in the NFL where it takes guys two years to get all the way back to pre-injury levels (especially with ACLs).
     
  20. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    I also want to add that I was really disappointed in how Grayson Allen responded to adversity this year. Clearly everything happening with him affected his play (and to be fair, I think the nagging injuries played a factor). I'm not a huge fan of the guy (although I love his compete level, for the most part), but if he comes back he has to be the stone cold assassin that Redick was back in the day.
     
  21. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    He just needs to play within himself. Pretty telling that even a coach like Coach K couldn't reel him in. I think he should just go pro and move on.
     
  22. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    That may be the case, but even as a likely 2nd round pick? I am guessing that with a great senior year he could play his way back into the late lottery, but I may be way off base.
     
  23. Average Reds

    Average Reds Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    He certainly has the skill to be a late lottery pick, and the things that are causing him issues really aren't going to scare off NBA teams. (See Green, Draymond.)

    If his stock has really fallen that far, I'm guessing he would stay.
     
  24. IdiotKicker

    IdiotKicker Member SoSH Member

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    Kind of a fitting end to how ths eason went, and definitely one of the most up-and-down seasons I can remember as a Duke fan. Gut tells me that Giles goes along with Tatum, but I think Grayson, Kennard, Bolden, and Jackson end up staying and forming the core for next year's team. I think Bolden has absolutely massive talent, and he is the one I'm actually most concerned about losing since I think his skillset is something that Duke needs badly. If Giles moves on, Wendell Carter is a pretty easy fit in, and with Gary Trent coming in, there's enough perimeter depth to still be very good, but I want a big man who can defend and has some post moves, and Bolden is that guy. He lacks top-end quickness, but he's actually pretty solid vertically, and his feet are smooth for a guy that big.
     
  25. rhopkins2323

    rhopkins2323 lurker

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    I'm not a fan of GA's game. I think he can be a very good college player, but in the NBA, I'm not sure yet. He'll be able to stick it, but he's a 6'4 guard that can't really defend and can't go by. He gets into the lane vs smaller defenders by bullying his way with his shoulder, and that type of game doesn't translate to the NBA where every guard is just as strong as he is. My take is that he's a 6'4 shooter, bad D, and has limited upside.

    But I agree, he should go pro and take advantage of starting his contract while he's still young
     
  26. Drocca

    Drocca darrell foster wallace SoSH Member

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    I'm seeing a lot of Duke talk in some threads elsewhere where Duke fans are repeating some of the same preseason stuff --- essentially that if only Tatum leaves they will be a juggernaut and that if Giles and Tatum leaves but they get Knox (most likely scenario) then they will be a juggernaut.

    Duke has 2 championships in the past 7 years so there's no question they are already a juggernaut and another early exit from the NCAA tournament doesn't change what they are doing. BUT, Coach K again talked about needing to get deeper. My question for Duke fans is: doesn't Coach K sort of do this to himself by burying McDonald's All-Americans on the bench? Shouldn't he accept an early season loss or two to develop some guys for March? What do ya'll think? I think of someone like Luke Maye --- here's a guy who would never sniff playing time with Duke but he's a real contributor for Carolina and has been given minutes when he probably shouldn't have.
     
  27. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    I think this year was super weird with injuries. Tatum, Giles, and Bolden didn't practice / play until December. Then Jefferson, Jones, and Allen all had various ailments. And Chase Jeter got hurt too. I don't think K was guilty of burying guys, at least not this year.

    Back in 2015 when they won it all they had 8 guys play 9+ minutes in the championship game. I think this year, if they were healthy, they could have been 9 deep - Jackson, Kennard, Allen, Jones, Jefferson, Tatum, Giles, Bolden, and Jeter.

    He has also had a fair amount of 4 year type players - Jones and Jefferson, Quinn Cook and Marshall Plumlee back on the 2015 team. I do think he would be wise to bring in a couple more of those types of guys.
     
  28. Greg29fan

    Greg29fan Member SoSH Member

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    He buried Javin DeLaurier harder than The Undertaker - he was a kid who had offers from all the big time programs and probably would have been a key guy most of those places.

    He got on the court twice in 2017 for a total of nine minutes.
     
  29. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    I just find it weird that every year it seems that Coach K is not getting any contribution from 1-3 four or five star recruits. Like, I root for BC and would be doing cartwheels to get the guys that Coach K refuses to play. Is it possible he closes the door on kids too soon? Some of that was injury related this year but it seems to be a recurring issue as Duke never goes more than 6-7 deep.
     
  30. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    Fair points both of you
     
  31. JShams

    JShams Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Giles, Bolden and DeLaurier scored a combined 158 points this year.

    Luke Maye has scored 159.

    I have to think K could have found these guys a few more minutes over the course of the year.

    Edit - Please remember how atrocious Luke Maye was as a freshman. The sight of him literally made me sick to my stomach, and was usually followed by a play that made me question why he had a scholarship (2016-2017 award winner Brandon Robinson).

    But that's why I'm not a coach, because Luke Maye has been a vital contributor to this team. This is literally a sentence I never thought I, or anyone with a pulse, would ever utter.
     
    #581 JShams, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  32. RedOctober3829

    RedOctober3829 Member SoSH Member

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    Tatum is turning pro.

     
  33. Drocca

    Drocca darrell foster wallace SoSH Member

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    What an insane stat, thanks for digging that up and sharing. At this point everyone understands that Coach K recruits over players (so don't sign early!) but more than that I feel terrible for the kids and their families who are 4/5 star recruits and just get entirely ignored once they get on campus and their basketball career is effectively killed without ever getting (it seems) instruction or opportunity.

    I understand why the top players want to go there, you get to play for the best coach in college basketball, most years you are going to have most of March off to prepare for the draft and you'll be on television every night. But these mid-tier (guys ranked 20-50) guys are the ones I'm surprised he can still convince to sit at the end of the bench for a year before they transfer.
     
  34. Greg29fan

    Greg29fan Member SoSH Member

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    Chase Jeter is outta there
     
  35. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    No more Jeter's, Dukies
     
  36. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    That's gotta be on K
     
  37. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    Time to retire, Mike, your self-centered strategies aren't working any more.

    Other than Kyrie, has there been a Duke player than didn't underperform NBA expectations in the last 10 years?
     
  38. JShams

    JShams Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Hard to judge Parker since he can't seem to stay healthy. Can't put that on his college coach.
     
  39. rhopkins2323

    rhopkins2323 lurker

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    It's tough to argue with K's approach. He's not going to have a stacked roster 1 through 9 team every year. Luke Maye wouldn't have helped Duke. We all will hate Maye next year if he's asked to be a top 5 or 6 player where is lack of talent will be exposed.

    IMO Duke's expectations were wrong this year (even though they got an ACC tournament title). Media/fans overrated everyone on that roster. GA had a horrible season and their freshman weren't good enough....and of course some bad luck with injuries. I'm not sure I would count Jeter. He's been soft and bad since he got to Duke. Just because he was highly ranked and didn't pan out that it's K's fault. Some kids get to college and don't work at it. It's competitive as can be and you are going to have kids that flame out.

    @Ale Xander - Here are all current solid NBA players from Duke:

    Mason Plumlee
    Austin Rivers
    Rodney Hood
    Gerald henderson
    JJ Reddick
    Mike Dunleavy

    TBD - Parker, Ingram, Winslow

    Can't believe I am defending Duke, but not only is the hate for K is ridiculous, but the belief that what he does doesn't work. They just won the ACC tournament title. It is such Patriotesque jealousy hate
     
  40. JShams

    JShams Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I think you're missing the point. No other coach has the talent he has at his disposal. What was it nine McDonalds All-Americans on this year's team, when the next closest team in the nation had four. Yet, many players haven't grown or developed to the point where he trusts them to even play modest minutes in February and March, so he is "forced" to have a 7 man rotation and then complain about the team's lack of depth.

    That was the point of the Luke Maye comparison. Giles, Bolden and DeLaurier are/were all significantly more touted and, at the very least, Giles will be playing basketball much longer then Luke Maye. Don't go complaining about your lack of depth when some of this must be on you and your failure to bring these young men along.
     
  41. Greg29fan

    Greg29fan Member SoSH Member

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    UVA is also having transfer issues with Marial Shayok, Darius Thompson, and Jared Rueter all departing the program. Maybe Bennett to Indiana is happening.
     
  42. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Ale's point was their performance in comparison to expectations not their overall ability. Not sure I blame K for this though. Some guys are just naturally better-suited for college than the NBA. And he obviously has no control over them when they reach the NBA.

    My only criticism of Coach K would be player development of some of these highly ranked kids. And for recruiting and playing that fuckstick, Greg Paulus.
     
  43. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    Maye with 14 and 9 with an assist in the first half of a sweet 16 game
    Arguably the best player on the court so far
     
  44. JShams

    JShams Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Remember when he was air balling wide open layups. Yeah, same guy.
     
  45. Greg29fan

    Greg29fan Member SoSH Member

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    Really proud of the way the kids responded to Butler's second half run. Hope for 10 overtimes in the nightcap.
     
  46. Ale Xander

    Ale Xander Member SoSH Member

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    Same guy
     
  47. BigSoxFan

    BigSoxFan Member SoSH Member

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    Congrats to the pre-eminent ACC program on another gutsy win. Nice to show those one-and-done factory programs like UK and a certain neighbor that there is another path to success!
     
  48. Drocca

    Drocca darrell foster wallace SoSH Member

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    Thank you. Very funny that Luke Maye, who kind of symbolizes the difference between the two programs, would hit that shot. I love this team. I know it's fun to win the offseason and I also understand that, for guys like Tatum, the extra rest and time to prepare for their real career is vital but it's so nice to just love a team and be able to keep watching them.
     
  49. tims4wins

    tims4wins PN23's replacement SoSH Member

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    Felt that way about the 2010 Devils. Congrats on B2B F4s. Maybe it'll end better than the Jets last claim to fame of B2B F4s.
     
  50. rhopkins2323

    rhopkins2323 lurker

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    What an F'n idiot that guy is for saying that.

    It was Maye's fault Monk got a good look to tie it, but man he has played his balls off this entire tournament. With Hicks playing soft as can be, Luke Maye was needed to win. They go home without him.

    Roy needs to get something out of Hicks.
     

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