I would phrase it differently: did they look so awesome with Brady? Or did they look like a team that had been picking near the end of the draft for 20 years? Their talent gap is across the roster, and like the Sox, it's actually getting better, but because of key positions not being fixed, the results don't show it, and play into lazy narratives about how the smartest organization of the past two decades is now a bunch of fools.It's not that complicated. The Patriots pushed the greatest player in NFL history out the door, he went on and won a Super Bowl with another franchise, and the Patriots devolved into one of the worst teams in the NFL.
The Red Sox let one of the greatest players in team history, in his prime, walk and he went on to win a championship with another franchise and is part of a machine in LA. The Sox went on to finish last 3 out of 4 years and without some major changes, if won't be pretty next year either.
Both franchises made some controversial moves and they back fired. I think Kraft still has some good will to work with. Henry is seen as cheap and not very interested in the franchise since the Betts trade.
I totally agree that they have been in rebuild mode. Like the Pats, they reached a point talent-wise where they couldn't keep plugging the holes. I wish they had the guts to just admit it, but maybe there are other reasons for not saying what we could pretty much all see? Sox ownership has done a great job but they seem unnecessarily thin-skinned. Just hold up the rings, tell people what you're doing, and then stop listening to the Globe.This is a well reasoned post. But I really think you’re overlooking something crucial. The Red Sox have been doing a hybrid rebuild the past two seasons. Of course they haven’t been competitive during that process. That is literally the point of a rebuild.
In 2019 they ran it back with the best team of this century and the highest payroll in the league. They underperformed, came in third, and the GM was fired. 2020 was the Covid year and they sucked.
They won 92 games in 2021 and went to the ALCS. The next year they fielded a good team with a high payroll (3rd in baseball, if I recall), that most of us felt good about. But that team was undone by injuries. That happens. After that they spent two years rebuilding, and have really improved the upper minors while andding five or so good young players to the major league roster during that span.
Now we’re in a place where they’ve announced they’re going for it and IF they can land two good starters they look like they can compete for a playoff spot In what may be the best division in baseball history. Meanwhile, they have three players at AA who have star potential and could be up within a year and a half, plus a handful of arms that could turn into something, plus a lot of talent lower down in the system.
Things are looking pretty good coming out of a rebuild in a beast of a division. But even your reasonable post boils all of this down to not being competitive since 2018.
Somewhere John Henry embraces his inner Vin Diesel (I’m sure it’s in there) and reaches for a 400m dollar nitrous bottle.Maybe they just can't find the throttle?
We're talking the Red Sox here ... not Munson Lidle AirwaysMaybe they just can't find the throttle?
Never! This is but a mere flesh wound.Give up! I know I have, now that I've heard he didn't find it worth his while to travel to Boston. It feels very good to give up.
If he goes to the NYY, I will be very sad, but whatchagonnado?
I don't imagine there would be any such ramifications or else it would have made its way into the media narrative by now. I'm not an agent or a lawyer, though. Can you expand on your thinking here? Curious as to what you're envisioning and why the same wouldn't have applied to, say, the Yoshida deal a year ago.If YY signs for a Cole-level contract (as seems likely), are there potential legal ramifications of his signing for a contract at his age that no player subject to the MLB draft could attain? I would assume Boras has invested significant energy in this realm.
Somewhere between 300-400MJust for fun, we should have another poll: how many posts will this thread have before YY makes his decision?
It's why Boston probably needs to offer a lot more than LA, NYY, or NYM. But for YY to simply not even consider Boston out of the gate seems....insane.How many 25 year old international superstars are going to pick Boston when LA and NY are options? I think it's that simple.
Anybody who’s worked an old outboard knows that equally important to throttle considerations are those associated with the choke.Maybe they just can't find the throttle?
This is the main reason I've become pessimistic about the Red Sox' chances. If the rumors are true that he wants the largest market and the biggest stage, then NY or LA are the logical choices. He's already been successful on the biggest stages he's faced - NPB, Olympics, WBC - what else is left? He's a young stud athlete with international appeal, an apparently engaging personality, and IMO very good looking...he'll have sponsors beating down his door.How many 25 year old international superstars are going to pick Boston when LA and NY are options? I think it's that simple.
He might just be thinking he wants to live in NY and Cohen promised him unlimited money, so why bother with the Sox?It's why Boston probably needs to offer a lot more than LA, NYY, or NYM. But for YY to simply not even consider Boston out of the gate seems....insane.
Supposedly they haven’t even really exchanged numbers yet. When you have your heart set on living in certain places, $300 million isn’t much different from $500. For all we know the thought of living in Boston is the same as living in Detroit, Philly, or like 15 other US cities without as much stuff going on as New York or LA.It's why Boston probably needs to offer a lot more than LA, NYY, or NYM. But for YY to simply not even consider Boston out of the gate seems....insane.
Exactly I’m not hanging out another day on the east coast in the winter waiting out a storm to go to a place that I wouldn’t want to live in. He has two teams in NY to bid against each other so he didn’t need to come here. He probably only went to San Francisco because the Angels are a train wreck and he needed someone to bid the Dodgers up.He might just be thinking he wants to live in NY and Cohen promised him unlimited money, so why bother with the Sox?
Reporters take internet BS and run with it these days?So if he’s not even considering the Sox, what do we make of all the talk about the Sox making him their primary target, offering him $300M+, etc. Did this really happen, or was it a leak from the org that doesn’t leak….designed to do what, exactly? If he was never considering Boston, you’d think the org should have a sense of that a while ago and ideally, planned accordingly.
It’s a terrible read on the target and a big waste of their time.So if he’s not even considering the Sox, what do we make of all the talk about the Sox making him their primary target, offering him $300M+, etc. Did this really happen, or was it a leak from the org that doesn’t leak….designed to do what, exactly? If he was never considering Boston, you’d think the org should have a sense of that a while ago and ideally, planned accordingly.
Yeah, there is another report about him taking his decision out past New Year's, so what if he shows up in Boston next week? I still don't think anyone knows much.Reporters take internet BS and run with it these days?
I'd guess they are trying, and his agents hvae reasons to keep Sox in the bidding until late just to maximize leverage on bids. Not sure why the agents wouldn't proceed as if he were serious about most teams who could push the bidding up, or how a team can tell he is not considering them until very late in the process (when, for example, he doesn't visit a city if that is in fact the situation)So if he’s not even considering the Sox, what do we make of all the talk about the Sox making him their primary target, offering him $300M+, etc. Did this really happen, or was it a leak from the org that doesn’t leak….designed to do what, exactly? If he was never considering Boston, you’d think the org should have a sense of that a while ago and ideally, planned accordingly.
Breslow and Warner did say the Sox would likely be scouring the trade market for pitching, so they probably agreed internally that Yamamoto would be a long shot. One worth pursuing, because you never know, but a long shot nonetheless. Trade market for pitchers the Sox would actually want hasn't really opened up yet, so everyone waits.So if he’s not even considering the Sox, what do we make of all the talk about the Sox making him their primary target, offering him $300M+, etc. Did this really happen, or was it a leak from the org that doesn’t leak….designed to do what, exactly? If he was never considering Boston, you’d think the org should have a sense of that a while ago and ideally, planned accordingly.
Exactly. Plan B time would seem to have arrived. If he’s not willing to accept an invitation to Fenway — which must have been delivered — then it’s arguably time to pivot in another direction and beat the YY hopefuls to any desirable FA pitcher who they can lockup before YY takes his talents to the South Bronx.So if he’s not even considering the Sox, what do we make of all the talk about the Sox making him their primary target, offering him $300M+, etc. Did this really happen, or was it a leak from the org that doesn’t leak….designed to do what, exactly? If he was never considering Boston, you’d think the org should have a sense of that a while ago and ideally, planned accordingly.
Yep, and if that truly is the case, then I can't be upset with the Sox, because they literally would have had no chance at him regardless of how much they offered.He might just be thinking he wants to live in NY and Cohen promised him unlimited money, so why bother with the Sox?
I’m not sure I’d classify the FO as one that never leaks; only that there have been times where they’ve moved quickly before rumors got out. If they knew they were out, they certainly would have a PR fan messaging incentive to leak that they had made a significant offer.So if he’s not even considering the Sox, what do we make of all the talk about the Sox making him their primary target, offering him $300M+, etc. Did this really happen, or was it a leak from the org that doesn’t leak….designed to do what, exactly? If he was never considering Boston, you’d think the org should have a sense of that a while ago and ideally, planned accordingly.
But I'm learning so much about where Yamamoto wants to live!Can we lock the thread for our sanity?
If you gave him 500 mil for 5 years I’m guessing you wouldn’t need to offer the opt out.The contract parameters are sure to be unique for this one. If I wanted to win I'd go with 5 for 500 mill opt out after 2. $`100 million dollar man who beats Ohtani's Current value and chance to cash in again at 27.
What if you defer most of that 500 mill to be paid at the heat death of the universe?If you gave him 500 mil for 5 years I’m guessing you wouldn’t need to offer the opt out.
In that case, my idea of $1.2 billion looks even better.What if you defer most of that 500 mill to be paid at the heat death of the universe?
I think the Sox were sincere and serious about their pursuit of YY. Mazz was saying today that sources he has who usually have stuff Sox-related have nothing. When you’re tight-lipped, you are usually meaning serious business. They did get an initial meeting with him, so they’re in the game. Sometimes it just doesn’t go your way. At the end of the day, I just want the Sox in the game on the biggest free agents in the game. If they’re serious about spending, they’ll land someone. But after the last few years, I have to see it to believe it.So if he’s not even considering the Sox, what do we make of all the talk about the Sox making him their primary target, offering him $300M+, etc. Did this really happen, or was it a leak from the org that doesn’t leak….designed to do what, exactly? If he was never considering Boston, you’d think the org should have a sense of that a while ago and ideally, planned accordingly.
I don't think teams are allowed to do this, it would be a collusion violation. There are ways to do it if they really wanted to, I guess, but a grey area that teams tend to stay away from.Two things:
If there is anything to the idea that he’s not interested in the Sox, I expect the team to make some kind of announcement by tomorrow that they are out, in order to mitigate the PR damage.
Yoshida was older, and his total contract value was under $100M. We might see 25-year-old YY joining Cole in the same rotation for one of the most lucrative pitching contracts in MLB. Maybe Boras-types will try to find an angle to blow up the MLB draft on some kind of restraint-of-trade grounds. Nothing probably changes. though.I don't imagine there would be any such ramifications or else it would have made its way into the media narrative by now. I'm not an agent or a lawyer, though. Can you expand on your thinking here? Curious as to what you're envisioning and why the same wouldn't have applied to, say, the Yoshida deal a year ago.
OK I didn’t realize that. Thank you for that info. I suppose they could leak something but we may end up having to remain in the dark for a while.I don't think teams are allowed to do this, it would be a collusion violation. There are ways to do it if they really wanted to, I guess, but a grey area that teams tend to stay away from.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_collusion
Montgomery’s agent must be salivating if the Sox are willing to spend that and they don’t land Yamamoto.So if he’s not even considering the Sox, what do we make of all the talk about the Sox making him their primary target, offering him $300M+, etc. Did this really happen, or was it a leak from the org that doesn’t leak….designed to do what, exactly? If he was never considering Boston, you’d think the org should have a sense of that a while ago and ideally, planned accordingly.
I think the idea would be leaking it to all Boston outlets that they aren’t in on YY. IMO, I completely agree.I don't think teams are allowed to do this, it would be a collusion violation. There are ways to do it if they really wanted to, I guess, but a grey area that teams tend to stay away from.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_collusion
Also if things got serious with him and the Sox he could just jump on a plane and be thereYoshida's opinion (thumbs up or thumbs down) on playing in Boston is likely a key input. Since YY is at least talking to the Sox, then maybe Yoshida's review was at least neutral if not positive. On the other hand, YY's agent would want to keep the Sox in as bidders as long as possible even with a negative review from Yoshida.
As someone noted upthread, maybe the trip to Boston got wiped out by the major windstorm. As is typical, no one knows anything right now.
Is there someone expendable in the minors we can sacrifice in exchange for 2017 Sale?It's one thing not to close the deal, it's another to seemingly not get a seat at the final table. Wins cure all, but it's hard to see how the current roster and mid(ish)-level additions will accomplish that.
The fact that neither are 25 year old international stars probably makes their situations different.I feel like it is going to be just as difficult for the Red Sox to lock down Montgomery/Snell or the other sought after pitchers.
I’m pretty confident that if you give either one of those guys the most money, they’ll come here.I feel like it is going to be just as difficult for the Red Sox to lock down Montgomery/Snell or the other sought after pitchers.
“To me, the most important thing this study shows is that virtually all of the underpaid players are under 30 and virtually all the overpaid players are over 30,” Henry says. “Yet teams continue to extravagantly overpay for players above the age of 30.”
Bloomberg"Henry says the Red Sox use as many as three “nonbaseball financial experts” to determine how much to spend on a particular player." Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington also weighs in. “There are fewer and fewer players getting to free agency, or even close, in their prime-age seasons,” says Cherington.
The fact that neither are 25 year old international stars probably makes their situations different.
And, the other teams that lose out on YY and likely others will be in the bidding too. The Red Sox cannot rest on this "we won four WS titles in the last 20 years" approach because it isn't working.I’m pretty confident that if you give either one of those guys the most money, they’ll come here.
Good post. I think this is a good read on the situation.I think the Sox were sincere and serious about their pursuit of YY. Mazz was saying today that sources he has who usually have stuff Sox-related have nothing. When you’re tight-lipped, you are usually meaning serious business. They did get an initial meeting with him, so they’re in the game. Sometimes it just doesn’t go your way. At the end of the day, I just want the Sox in the game on the biggest free agents in the game. If they’re serious about spending, they’ll land someone. But after the last few years, I have to see it to believe it.
Wait, so that's the approach they're taking with free agents? Do they at least serve snacks?And, the other teams that lose out on YY and likely others will be in the bidding too. The Red Sox cannot rest on this "we won four WS titles in the last 20 years" approach because it isn't working.