Is he? I’m not sure we can know without Zappe getting full starters reps during the week. Maybe the coaching staff knows, but us couch coaches, I doubt it.I mean, he's still better than Zappe.
-sigh-They have the 4th worst point differential in the league.
That's an indication that this team is not competitive.
They are 2-9 and you're defending this joke. It's odd.
edit - it's especially sad you're using Carolina as your example. They are a joke, one of the worst teams in the last 10 years. When you need to use them as your example as to why the Pats are "competitive" all it proves is that the team sucks.
You see, because they had a couple of games that went down to the end, this team is actually a competitive squad. You know they are competitive when they lose to a truly bad Giants team with a 3rd string QB who has no receivers.Competitive, compared to what, though? Most NFL games are “competitive”. I guess I don’t understand the point. The team is terrible, and their point differential fully supports that.
It was skewed by defensive scores more than anything. They weren't the 6th scoring offense.-sigh-
I'm not "defending" them. I'm just saying they've been competitive. And they have been. They suck because in the end, they find ways to lose, no matter how close the game is. That's the sign of a losing team. They deserve to lose all these games. They haven't been "unlucky". They've lost all on their own. It's not "defending" them to point out, though, that they've been competitive. Because that's just a fact.
The point differential...that's what two historically bad losses - which still only count as one game in the standings, by the way - do. Just as, when we were talking about their #6 scoring offense during Mac's rookie year, it was emphasized over and over that that was skewed by a couple of monster games against bad teams. Works both ways.
Because there's not much difference between a day three pick and a UDFA.Nah, just stick with this kid. He'll improve.
I still can't believe that in an age when you can literally get a decent kicker off the scrap heap - either a vet or a rookie - that BB has used legit picks on kickers twice in the last few years. In fact, since 2006, BB has used six picks on kickers or punters:
2006 - K Gostkowski (4th round)
2010 - P Mesko (5th round)
2019 - P Bailey (5th round) - thanks for the correction @Ferm Sheller
2020 - K Rohrwasser (5th round)
2023 - K Ryland (4th round)
2023 - P Baringer (6th round)
None were high draft picks, and of course Gostkowski turned out great, but so many of the best kickers and punters in the NFL weren't drafted at all.
In fact... 2023 NFL top ten leaders in FG %:
1. Aubrey, Dal - 100.0% - UDFA
2. Butker, KC - 100.0% - 7th round (#233)
3. Zuerlein, NYJ - 95.7% - 6th round (#171)
4. Folk, Ten - 95.5% - 6th round (#178)
5. Koo, Atl - 95.5% - UDFA
6. Santos, Chi - 95.0% - UDFA
7. Boswell, Pit - 94.7% - UDFA
8. Fairbairn, Hou - 94.7% - UDFA
9. Dicker, LAC - 94.1% - UDFA
10. Lutz, Den - 91.7% - UDFA
So 7 of the top 10 kickers in the NFL this year (by FG%) were UDFAs, and the three that were picked were 6th and 7th rounders.
Punting - 2023 NFL top ten leaders in net yards per punt:
1. Cole, LV - 46.9 - UDFA
2. Anger, Dal - 46.1 - 3rd round (#70)
3. Stonehouse, Ten, 43.9 - UDFA
4. Cooke, Jax - 43.8 - 7th round (#247)
5. Dickson, Sea - 43.7 - 5th round (#149)
6. Gillan, NYG - 43.6 - UDFA
7. Hekker, Car - 43.2 - UDFA
8. Johnston, Hou - 42.6 - UDFA
9. Wishnowsky, SF - 42.5 - 4th round (#110)
10. Bojourquez, Cle - 42.4 - UDFA
So 6 of the top 10 punters in the NFL this year were UDFAs, and two of the guys picked were by Jacksonville.
Long story short, you can pretty easily find a quality K or P as an UDFA. So WHY IN THE WORLD use a draft pick to secure one, especially when you have a bunch of other holes on the roster?
I have no idea what point you are making. The second worst team in the NFL is “competitive”? At what? Some thing other than football?-sigh-
I'm not "defending" them. I'm just saying they've been competitive. And they have been. They suck because in the end, they find ways to lose, no matter how close the game is. That's the sign of a losing team. They deserve to lose all these games. They haven't been "unlucky". They've lost all on their own. It's not "defending" them to point out, though, that they've been competitive. Because that's just a fact.
The point differential...that's what two historically bad losses - which still only count as one game in the standings, by the way - do. Just as, when we were talking about their #6 scoring offense during Mac's rookie year, it was emphasized over and over that that was skewed by a couple of monster games against bad teams. Works both ways.
So we’re giving credit to Daboll for getting “something” out of DeVito (ignoring the abysmal games DeVito had against the Jets and Cowboys) but ignoring Daniel Jones being even worse than Mac Jones this year?See: Tommy DeVito.
Daboll is managing to get something out of a guy who was mediocre at Syracuse.
In the immortal words of Grady Little: They're entertaining a lot of people out thereI have no idea what point you are making. The second worst team in the NFL is “competitive”? At what? Some thing other than football?
delete-sigh-
I'm not "defending" them. I'm just saying they've been competitive. And they have been. They suck because in the end, they find ways to lose, no matter how close the game is. That's the sign of a losing team. They deserve to lose all these games. They haven't been "unlucky". They've lost all on their own. It's not "defending" them to point out, though, that they've been competitive. Because that's just a fact.
The point differential...that's what two historically bad losses - which still only count as one game in the standings, by the way - do. Just as, when we were talking about their #6 scoring offense during Mac's rookie year, it was emphasized over and over that that was skewed by a couple of monster games against bad teams. Works both ways.
No they’re not competitive or finding ways to lose, they don’t score enough points to win almost ever. They’ve scored 20+ points twice and are 1-1. They’re awful.-sigh-
I'm not "defending" them. I'm just saying they've been competitive. And they have been. They suck because in the end, they find ways to lose, no matter how close the game is. That's the sign of a losing team. They deserve to lose all these games. They haven't been "unlucky". They've lost all on their own. It's not "defending" them to point out, though, that they've been competitive. Because that's just a fact.
The point differential...that's what two historically bad losses - which still only count as one game in the standings, by the way - do. Just as, when we were talking about their #6 scoring offense during Mac's rookie year, it was emphasized over and over that that was skewed by a couple of monster games against bad teams. Works both ways.
Zappe at least led a TD drive today and would have led the game-tying drive if Ryland didn't choke on a chip shot.I mean, he's still better than Zappe.
I've tried to make it as clear as possible. They've been highly competitive in almost all their games this year. That's being competitive. Being non-competitive is being blown out regularly. That's not happening to them. Arizona, who also has just 2 wins, has lost by 10+ points 5 times this year. NE just 3. I already documented Carolina (a 1-win team). The 3-win Giants have lost by 10+ points 6 times. The 3-win Bears have lost by 10+ points 4 times.I have no idea what point you are making. The second worst team in the NFL is “competitive”? At what? Some thing other than football?
It’s not “giving credit” as much as it is calling out the lame excuse of not having a good QB (a problem of BB’s own making). NYG lost their crappy QB and still beat the Pats.So we’re giving credit to Daboll for getting “something” out of DeVito (ignoring the abysmal games DeVito had against the Jets and Cowboys) but ignoring Daniel Jones being even worse than Mac Jones this year?
That's because Mac is even worse than Daniel Jones AND DeVito.It’s not “giving credit” as much as it is calling out the lame excuse of not having a good QB (a problem of BB’s own making). NYG lost their crappy QB and still beat the Pats.
what i mean is if u hire the wrong guy like denver did after 2016 u look up 1 day and it's 6 years later and 4 cohes later u get more and more depatrteHow can we be more behind than we already are?
Let me be very clear: I don’t care at all about Daboll or Daniel Jones.So we’re giving credit to Daboll for getting “something” out of DeVito (ignoring the abysmal games DeVito had against the Jets and Cowboys) but ignoring Daniel Jones being even worse than Mac Jones this year?
Dowling was a consensus top 40 prospect who ended up opening day starter. It’s also a bit odd to suggest the 2011 Patriots were “loaded” at CB. That secondary consisted of McCourty regressing badly at CB, Bodden’s career derailed by injury, Arrington miscast as a boundary corner and a veritable who’s who of waiver wire, practice squad and street free agent types including such studs as Antwuan Molden, Sterling Moore and Nate Jones.The Strange thing from a couple days ago: it was never that Strange was picked in a vacuum. Though yea, interior oline in the first is pretty blah.
The problem is 1: They just traded away Shaq Mason a few weeks earlier, and for next to nothing, 2: They had various other needs, and players were still available, and 3: at best, he was a reach. Yea, it's still a reach even when BB does it. I love Belichick and want him here. But the Strange pick was bad the moment it was made, and it was bad even if Strange were nearly as good as Mankins. Problem is Strange isn't Mankins, and the pick is only defensible because he's been an okay player on an otherwise bad oline.
There are various picks that I think were bad even if the players ended up good. Joejuan Williams is another -- taking a DB at a time they were loaded with DB and badly needed offensive skill help. Ras I Dowling another.
SOSH likes to shit on the round 2 guys that were reaches like Tavon Wilson, but at least guys like that had productive careers.
After last season, you had to see what Mac could do with a more seasoned OC. Mac just doesn’t have the arm strength to be a viable NFL quarterback. That one fact combined with a crap attitude and unbelievably poor decision making = shit.They didn't want a veteran. They didn't want Mac looking over his shoulder. It was sink or swim time. He sank like a lead balloon.
You should apply for a Red Sox front office position.I've tried to make it as clear as possible. They've been highly competitive in almost all their games this year. That's being competitive. Being non-competitive is being blown out regularly. That's not happening to them. Arizona, who also has just 2 wins, has lost by 10+ points 5 times this year. NE just 3. I already documented Carolina (a 1-win team). The 3-win Giants have lost by 10+ points 6 times. The 3-win Bears have lost by 10+ points 4 times.
So yes, they're a losing team and losses are what matters (or wins, conversely). But the claim that the Pats haven't been "competitive" is factually false. It's not a difficult point to grasp.
At least the defense was elite.They just lost two consecutive games in which they gave up 10 fucking points in each. They are exactly as bad as their record. Maybe even worse.
Who are some nfl teams with worse lines and weapons?The offense would be perfectly cromulent with a QB who was better than Hodson level.
Every single problem with this team stems from Mac. Every one. Not exaggerating for effect.
The difference between 3 (Pats), 4 (Bears) or 5 (Cards) double digit losses doesn’t seem like a meaningful difference to me. Plus you are comparing them to the other really bad teams out there, one of whom just beat them today. I don’t know why you think this matters or what it proves? They suck. They are horrible.I've tried to make it as clear as possible. They've been highly competitive in almost all their games this year. That's being competitive. Being non-competitive is being blown out regularly. That's not happening to them. Arizona, who also has just 2 wins, has lost by 10+ points 5 times this year. NE just 3. I already documented Carolina (a 1-win team). The 3-win Giants have lost by 10+ points 6 times. The 3-win Bears have lost by 10+ points 4 times.
So yes, they're a losing team and losses are what matters (or wins, conversely). But the claim that the Pats haven't been "competitive" is factually false. It's not a difficult point to grasp.
I'd love that. There is no defending them as they're 2-9, but I'm just trying to be factual here.You should apply for a Red Sox front office position.
This.Anything is better than watching this dinosaur's product every Sunday. Don't care who the next guy is. I want them to clean the entire operation out.
This.They are 2-9 and deserve to be 2-9. Who cares if they were competitive in some games? Spreads in NFL games are rarely double digits, most games are close. When you play 11 games and lose 9 of them and have a negative triple digit scoring differential you suck.
You're right. Day three picks (rounds 4-7) never go on to become anything, and they aren't traded for impact players. Why do fans care? These marginal differences in value have nothing to do with winning and it's impossible for them to change the fate of a franchise.That fans spend so much time complaining about day three picks is wild to me.
I mean... Bill O'Brien is a good OC, he was a good OC here and he was a good OC in college and a good OC in HOU, he worked wonders in developing Deshaun Watson. His offense is not the issue. He may not be a sexy name, but he's a good OC.Bill also keeps bringing in his old friends as OC instead of finding/developing anyone young. Sure seems like his time has come in NE.
AgreeThis.
If they do manage a top 2 pick, do we really trust Belichick to put quality pieces and offensive coaching around the kid? Or is he going to just keep nickel & diming skill position players and recycling the same coaches from his tree that run what is looking like an antiquated and highly predictable offense?
Belichick will be 72 next year, he’s not changing. And even if he did, what’s he going to coach this team for 2/3 more years, then they have to start over anyway? Better to just cut the cord on him at the end of this season. Get a new, modern vision in the building.
What are we even doing here?Watching guys like Aidan O'Connell, Will Levis, Dorian Thompson-Robinson and Jake Browning be at least competent today suggests a couple of things: You can find a guy anywhere in the draft, it also suggests there might be something really wrong with your college evaluation process.
I get you're trying to be sarcastic, but if you replaced your word choices of never and impossible, with rarely and unlikely, you'd have accidentally just made a true statement.You're right. Day three picks (rounds 4-7) never go on to become anything, and they aren't traded for impact players. Why do fans care? These marginal differences in value have nothing to do with winning and it's impossible for them to change the fate of a franchise.
Lines and weapons are very dependent on the QB using them and Mac has been the very worst QB in the league. He's had time. He's had receivers. And he can't make the plays.Who are some nfl teams with worse lines and weapons?
He has no receivers outside of a rookie in Pop Douglas. Everyone else blows. JuJu cashed, Parker blows and Miami laughed when they traded him, Thornton is a bust.Lines and weapons are very dependent on the QB using them and Mac has been the very worst QB in the league. He's had time. He's had receivers. And he can't make the plays.
That’s not an answer and you know it.Lines and weapons are very dependent on the QB using them and Mac has been the very worst QB in the league. He's had time. He's had receivers. And he can't make the plays.
He was also a good HC in Houston, just a terrible GM. He's a good football mind.I mean... Bill O'Brien is a good OC, he was a good OC here and he was a good OC in college and a good OC in HOU, he worked wonders in developing Deshaun Watson. His offense is not the issue. He may not be a sexy name, but he's a good OC.
Mac literally cannot throw the ball ten yards downfield.He has no receivers outside of a rookie in Pop Douglas. Everyone else blows. JuJu cashed, Parker blows and Miami laughed when they traded him, Thornton is a bust.
Bad teams do lose their fair share of close games, and usually have a couple of blowout losses to boot. So both the point differential and record point to the Patriots being a bad team.-sigh-
I'm not "defending" them. I'm just saying they've been competitive. And they have been. They suck because in the end, they find ways to lose, no matter how close the game is. That's the sign of a losing team. They deserve to lose all these games. They haven't been "unlucky". They've lost all on their own. It's not "defending" them to point out, though, that they've been competitive. Because that's just a fact.
The point differential...that's what two historically bad losses - which still only count as one game in the standings, by the way - do. Just as, when we were talking about their #6 scoring offense during Mac's rookie year, it was emphasized over and over that that was skewed by a couple of monster games against bad teams. Works both ways.
Strongly disagree. I think the line and weapons would be ok with a league-average QB. Not great, but not bad either. Onwenu at RT has made an enormous difference to the OL. And watching the games, WRs are open. There are plays to be made. Mac can't make them.That’s not an answer and you know it.
I totally agree with you about how awful Mac is and how it impacts everything. But you’re ignoring the fact that the line and weapons are almost definitely below average. The weapons are WELL below avg.
I literally can’t think of a team whose best weapon is worse than ours. Maybe Carolina
I don’t think anyone disagrees that Mac is a disaster. Some of us are just thinking that even if we get a stud qb (huge if), we still have a ton of work to do personnel wise bc BB’s drafts and FA moves on offense have been awfulMac literally cannot throw the ball ten yards downfield.
He has receivers. He simply can't get the ball to them. Look at his passing chart from today, literally not a single ball thrown past 10 yards except for one INT.
That's fine, I just disagree with the extent of the problems.I don’t think anyone disagrees that Mac is a disaster. Some of us are just thinking that even if we get a stud qb (huge if), we still have a ton of work to do personnel wise bc BB’s drafts and FA moves on offense have been awful
yeah, BOB isn't necessarily the guy I would pick if I could get anyone to run my team's offense, but of the guys available he was one of the ones with the best track recordHe was also a good HC in Houston, just a terrible GM. He's a good football mind.
I love onwenu (go blue!) and am not blind to the fact that they have some useful pieces. But almost every team in the nfl has a weapon on offense better than anyone on the pats. Just throw a dart…Strongly disagree. I think the line and weapons would be ok with a league-average QB. Not great, but not bad either. Onwenu at RT has made an enormous difference to the OL. And watching the games, WRs are open. There are plays to be made. Mac can't make them.
It's 100% on Mac. All of it. The entirety of why this team is shitty this season is because Mac Jones is their QB. On this hill I will die forever.
I think the line when healthy is actually pretty average. To me that (and Mac's mental collapse) has been the biggest difference from last year to this that took us from a mediocre team to a bad one.That’s not an answer and you know it.
I totally agree with you about how awful Mac is and how it impacts everything. But you’re ignoring the fact that the line and weapons are almost definitely below average. The weapons are WELL below avg.
I literally can’t think of a team whose best weapon is worse than ours. Maybe Carolina
Slot in rarely and unlikely. Does it then make sense to punt those picks altogether? Look at any good team in the league and they have someone who was 4th-7th round pick who's now a pro-bowler. Stefon Diggs. Jason Kelce. L'Jarius Sneed. Talanoa Hufonga. Amon Ra St. Brown And so on. Hitting on one of these players is probably the most impactful thing you can do when you build a franchise outside of finding a good QB. Hell, even finding a Pop Douglas in the sixth round is extremely helpful, much more so than the marginal value of drafting a "good" kicker or a "good" punter. The likelihood of finding these players is small, but the upside of doing is tremendous.I get you're trying to be sarcastic, but if you replaced your word choices of never and impossible, with rarely and unlikely, you'd have accidentally just made a true statement.