There was also a lot of sentiment on this board and in the fan base in general to draft either Leiter or Rocker if available. Rocker was available and Bloom chose Mayer instead. I give him credit for this.
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Agree, 100%. Maybe Mayer will end up not making it. Totally possible. But at THIS point, Chaim absolutely deserves credit for that pick.There was also a lot of sentiment on this board and in the fan base in general to draft either Leiter or Rocker if available. Rocker was available and Bloom chose Mayer instead. I give him credit for this.
I don’t recall many people wanting Rocker if Mayer were also available but maybe I’m misremembering. In any case, he has to make a pick so he deserves some credit. How much credit you want to give a GM for taking the consensus top remaining guy at #4 is up to the individual. I don’t think Mayer will be the major deciding factor on how we ultimately evaluate Bloom. I certainly hope he becomes the star we all want and the team needs.There was also a lot of sentiment on this board and in the fan base in general to draft either Leiter or Rocker if available. Rocker was available and Bloom chose Mayer instead. I give him credit for this.
That’s because everyone assumed Mayer was going 1st overall.There was also a lot of sentiment on this board and in the fan base in general to draft either Leiter or Rocker if available. Rocker was available and Bloom chose Mayer instead. I give him credit for this.
Damn near a perfect take. Henry is a tone-deaf billionaire. He takes a lot of heat for not talking publicly, but frankly, we're all better off with him saying nothing. I count myself as a Bloom believer, and you have to admire his guts and poise if nothing else. He didn't get good enough returns for Betts and Benintendi, and he should have ducked under the CBT last year, but no one's perfect.I think it's totally acceptable to boo whoever and whenever. It's a little silly to act like it's some sort of great act of disrespect or morally reprehensible in anyway.
That being said, I believe Henry deserves the scorn way more than Bloom. His inability to read that room is a feature, not a bug and just another sign of his tone-deaf nature. Yes, he's been successful, and I completely understand how older fans recoil at what they perceive as entitled behavior from spoiled fans. However, Henry continues to put his foot in his mouth at every conceivable opportunity. It's the constant mixed messaging that drives people nuts. He just doesn't come off as a real or trustworthy person in anyway.
Chaim has been solid in his tenure. He clearly has a vision, and I think it's working (albeit slowly), but I have serious questions about his ability to read the market. I think he's more of less done what he had been instructed to do when he was hired however, so I don't personally have many issues with him.
I do however have a big problem with a billionaire owner who continually hides behind past successes, who cries about baseball players being expensive while simultaneously owning 2 other major sports franchises that were purchased after the Red Sox. The same owner who has presided over numerous PR missteps from large to small. The same owner who almost never answers direct questions from the press and when he does, it's almost always in a newspaper he owns.
So yes, John Henry has brought me great joy, I'm grateful for that. I also think he's a two-faced, overly sensitive, out of touch man child who refuses to take accountability for any of his mistakes. If I had the opportunity I'd boo him too.
I agree with this completely. Bloom also deserves credit for selling everything that wouldn't be here long term in 2020 to be in a position to draft Meyer with a top 5 pick (and land Pivetta, and re-set the tax).Agree, 100%. Maybe Mayer will end up not making it. Totally possible. But at THIS point, Chaim absolutely deserves credit for that pick.
They never got to the "FINAL." Once it was clear Xander was being offered 10+ years, the Sox were out. As they should have been, IMOWasn't the report from Speier that their final over was 6/$160?
Solid point. I should have mentioned this on the break out! Apologies...I just clicked on a Tomase article. Disappointed that Archer didn't indicate in the OP that the writer was Tomase. That should be a rule or something.
The Sox really should have ducked under the CBT last year. They were only 2 games out of the final wild card spot at the trading deadline, and Sale had just come back looking strong. It wasn't unreasonable to think they might sneak into the playoffs, but they weren't going anywhere. Once Bloom traded Vazquez, he should have moved JD and Eovaldi, regardless of returns. Fans/media would have screamed, but they're screaming anyway.I agree with this completely. Bloom also deserves credit for selling everything that wouldn't be here long term in 2020 to be in a position to draft Meyer with a top 5 pick (and land Pivetta, and re-set the tax).
Of course, it's also why I maintain he deserves criticism for NOT doing as such last year. I understand what he did, I understand why he did it. But just like he deserves credit for where he got to pick - and whom he picked - in 2021 I think he also deserves to be questioned as to why he didn't do more to have that kind of opportunity with the 2023 class.
If we're going to credit him for Mayer (which I do, certainly), I think we have to be consistent and criticize him for not taking the same type of opportunity when it presented itself last year to get a higher pick with more slot / bonus money to sprinkle throughout the class.
It's never as simple as saying a GM is good or bad, because most intelligent GMs (and I certainly think Bloom is intelligent) are going to have "50 wins and 50 losses, and it's what they do with the other 62 that count" so to speak.
I think what was actually going on was that the plan was to draft Rocker or Leiter because there was no way Mayer was going to be available.There was also a lot of sentiment on this board and in the fan base in general to draft either Leiter or Rocker if available. Rocker was available and Bloom chose Mayer instead. I give him credit for this.
I also think SoSH collectively follows the minor league system a lot more fervently than the average fan. If the Sox traded Bleis for some modest MLB vet improvement, most Sox fans would probably be like, “cool!”People are still mad that they traded Mookie. That anger subsided in 2021, but came roaring back in the back half of 2022 because the team fell out of contention and then they lost Xander.
It's not rocket science to understand fan sentiment. If you're going to consciously jettison marquee players in the name of "long term franchise health" you better win, and win pretty quickly, or there's going to be blowback.
And on top of that, it's not like the minors are teeming with well-known, "can't miss", near-major-league-ready prospects. I get that people here are well versed on our farm talent, but most people aren't. Aside from Cassas and Mayer I'm not sure there's anyone else who moves the needle for the majority of the fan base.
So that's it. People don't see some bounty of great players on the horizon, and they think the present is pretty mediocre.
Hopefully a year from now Bloom can address that crowd with a "neener, neener, I told you so."
For sure, that was definitely my point. Hell, I barely follow our minor league guys and I post here all the time. There's just not enough time in the day when it comes to that for me.I also think SoSH collectively follows the minor league system a lot more fervently than the average fan. If the Sox traded Bleis for some modest MLB vet improvement, most Sox fans would probably be like, “cool!”
I dont think "sneaking into the playoffs" and "but weren't going anywhere" is a valid construct anymore. I suppose it depends on what "anywhere" means, but the Phillies won 87 games last year and got to the WS. On balance, I think the better course is to try and sneak in.The Sox really should have ducked under the CBT last year. They were only 2 games out of the final wild card spot at the trading deadline, and Sale had just come back looking strong. It wasn't unreasonable to think they might sneak into the playoffs, but they weren't going anywhere. Once Bloom traded Vazquez, he should have moved JD and Eovaldi, regardless of returns. Fans/media would have screamed, but they're screaming anyway.
I'm with you. Re: your comment I bolded, I'm thinking about Panda and Hanley and how poorly those deals worked out. I like the short-term commitments Bloom is making to plug holes.And probably the last. What a run?
I get why people are upset with where this team is in its build cycle but I can't imagine traveling to Springfield to boo John Henry. It's petulant and entitled at best. This team didn't resign Pedro. It traded Nomar and Jon Lester. The franchise recovered. I'm upset that Mookie Betts isn't here anymore. I am also sad to see Xander go, but it seems really "low information" to say that there isn't a plan here. The plan is really obvious to me. They want to build a strong player development system that will consistently supplement the major league roster at low cost. That seems prudent. They have consistently made low risk moves at the MLB roster level to supplement their chances but have mostly adhered to that plan. Last years trade deadline decisions notwithstanding. I have a hard time getting all that upset about the marginal moves they make at the top of the roster because they are clearly trying to plug gaps and get lucky to contend earlier in that build process. That's what happened in 2021 but this board talked about how fortunate that team was to get where they ended up.
I think I'd be more upset if they were paying big dollars for medicore players on long term deals because it would hamper the long term plan. All of the other teams in the division are doing this draft and develop plan and are further in the process than the Red Sox. Trying to compete by spending without the system behind it would almost certainly result in long term failure. I guess we could expect John Henry to spend $350m a year to try to contend every year at all costs but there is only one team in the sport doing that. The Mets. I'd prefer to live with more realistic expectations.
But I guess go to Springfield and boo because they didn't resign a player 5 years ago. It's bizarre.
Beyond some real question whether they got anywhere near $200M.... it's relative. If you make an offer that is way below market you can't say it's a top priority. I mean, if my top priority is buying a Ferrari and I go to the dealership, see list price is $300k and tell the dealer "hey I'll give you $130k" was it really a top priority? The Red Sox wanted him back if he would take a massively lesser deal than what was going to be on the table, it's fine to say "we were only interested in Xander at our price", I can respect that, but if you're nowhere near the market on him you can't really say bringing him back was a top priority.They offered him almost $200 million. What about that screams, "Not actually a top priority!"
Accusing people of lying without proof is pretty spectacular.
They wanted him back, on a reasonable deal. Bogaerts was always going to test free agency unless the Sox did something really stupid. They held the line and let San Diego do something really stupid instead.
Yep, he’s regressed and trading him was the right move. The return was the problem.I know Mookie Betts is awesome. I don’t care about batting average, and he is an extremely productive all around player.
Having said that, I’m sure that this fan base
would be extremely rationale about paying him $40 million dollars a year to hit around .270 with power and great defense to really not change the AL East picture too much with all the Red Sox pitching and injury issues.
A team that literally never finishes below .500 by definition is playing "competitive" baseball games.It strikes me that those that are accusing others of being entitled or not the ones attending games and paying premium prices for a barely competitive
If you don't find baseball games entertaining, I'd think about not going to baseball games.and non entertaining product.
The Red Sox of the last 20 years - shit, the last 5 years even - have been more competitive than they were when you were your grandson's age. Why did you care about them then? Perhaps you used a different measuring stick? One that emphasized liking baseball over back-of-the-envelope financial calculations concerning who got paid what? Maybe you can think about how to explain whatever that was then to your grandson now?I struggle to explain to my grandson why he should be happy since the Red Sox were good years ago and they will possibly be again in the future once the billionaires can pay the millionaires more money.
At issue seems to be your definition of "value" relative to what you are actually "entitled" to as a ticket purchaser.I apologize for feeling entitled that I should be getting value for the money I’m paying to attend games.
I hope the stigmata scars aren't too noticeable at formal events.I guess I should keep quiet, wave at Wally, sing Sweet Caroline and buy my merchandise and leave the park quietly.
I don't understand how people, especially older generations, see this as some fallow period for Red Sox baseball. I don't mean to assume anything about you or your fanship, but since you mention your grandson, I assume you're older than me, an "old millennial." Hasn't there been many stretches spanning several years of mediocre Red Sox teams?It strikes me that those that are accusing others of being entitled or not the ones attending games and paying premium prices for a barely competitive and non entertaining product.
I struggle to explain to my grandson why he should be happy since the Red Sox were good years ago and they will possibly be again in the future once the billionaires can pay the millionaires more money.
I apologize for feeling entitled that I should be getting value for the money I’m paying to attend games. I guess I should keep quiet, wave at Wally, sing Sweet Caroline and buy my merchandise and leave the park quietly.
Winning a championship is not the only impetus to becoming a fan of whatever team you're a fan of. If you tell your grandson that vegetables are poisonous, he won't eat them. If you buy him ice cream at a game, or show him how to keep score while watching at home, how the team does in any particular season probably won't be at the top of his list as to why he's having a good time.It strikes me that those that are accusing others of being entitled or not the ones attending games and paying premium prices for a barely competitive and non entertaining product.
I struggle to explain to my grandson why he should be happy since the Red Sox were good years ago and they will possibly be again in the future once the billionaires can pay the millionaires more money.
I apologize for feeling entitled that I should be getting value for the money I’m paying to attend games. I guess I should keep quiet, wave at Wally, sing Sweet Caroline and buy my merchandise and leave the park quietly.
While I get the point here, I think the thing that those teams that "sneak in" and then thrive in the playoffs tend to have something in common. An ace (or two) at the top of their staff that can get on a run or have players actually believe they can do something special. Sure, this isn't analytic, but we all remember Millar and his whole "Don't let us win tonight..." mindset for the team in 2004. But that is of course impossible to measure or quantify and I get it, but it becomes easier to go on a run with top of the line starting pitching - even recently.I dont think "sneaking into the playoffs" and "but weren't going anywhere" is a valid construct anymore. I suppose it depends on what "anywhere" means, but the Phillies won 87 games last year and got to the WS. On balance, I think the better course is to try and sneak in.
Geez.... do you feel entitled to a win every time you see the Sox play a game? You're entitled to feeling like the Sox should win... and to feeling disappointed if they don't. But this isn't a government agency... you're entitled to Social Security but not to a good product by a corporation. If you don't like the product... you can go elsewhere. Nobody is forcing you to spend your money on the Sox.. . or even your time and energy and attention.It strikes me that those that are accusing others of being entitled or not the ones attending games and paying premium prices for a barely competitive and non entertaining product.
I struggle to explain to my grandson why he should be happy since the Red Sox were good years ago and they will possibly be again in the future once the billionaires can pay the millionaires more money.
I apologize for feeling entitled that I should be getting value for the money I’m paying to attend games. I guess I should keep quiet, wave at Wally, sing Sweet Caroline and buy my merchandise and leave the park quietly.
I'll cop to this; I'm a fan living in NYC (really I'm probably a fan because I live in NYC) and I've never been to Fenway. I imagine it's easier to remain sanguine about the state of the team when I'm not constantly inundated with local negative clickbait media pounding the drum about how terrible everything is.It strikes me that those that are accusing others of being entitled or not the ones attending games and paying premium prices for a barely competitive and non entertaining product.
I struggle to explain to my grandson why he should be happy since the Red Sox were good years ago and they will possibly be again in the future once the billionaires can pay the millionaires more money.
I apologize for feeling entitled that I should be getting value for the money I’m paying to attend games. I guess I should keep quiet, wave at Wally, sing Sweet Caroline and buy my merchandise and leave the park quietly.
That wasn't my argument. I think if we all take emotion out of it, the catching transactions around the deadline make sense. I would also accept that the Pham and Hosmer trades also made sense. However, I will not concede that their inability or unwillingness to get under the cap should regard the entire deadline as a failure.Some numbers:
McGuire = $1,125,000 plus two arb years
Vazquez = $10,000,000 each of the next three years
which contract would you want?
The guy who just posted a 136 OPS+, which was better than all but one of his seasons in Boston, has "regressed".Yep, he’s regressed and trading him was the right move. The return was the problem.
I don’t want to relitigate the Betts trade except to say that, for me, it was like trading Yaz in 1968.The guy who just posted a 136 OPS+, which was better than all but one of his seasons in Boston, has "regressed".
OK.
Mookie + 2020 + 2022 + Xander + few major FA signings + few 2023-MLB-ready noteworthy prospects = todayI genuinely don't understand where all the vitriol is coming from.
Because too many fans are fickle, impatient children. Booing your own guys is so childish and the people who did it at this get together should be embarrassed. And I wouldn’t say they lost Xander so much as they decided that he wasn’t worth what he was going to get and let him walk.They finished in last place and lost the face of the franchise to free agency. They deserved to be booed.
Fans will cheer again when they win. That’s how it works. Lose. Boos. Win. Cheers.
The impact of not getting under the cap was that two compensation picks they are getting will drop from 2nd round to the 5th round, along with a proportionate drop in spending pool money.However, I will not concede that their inability or unwillingness to get under the cap should regard the entire deadline as a failure.
Yaz literally had no choice but to play for the Red SoxI don’t want to relitigate the Betts trade except to say that, for me, it was like trading Yaz in 1968.
Fan is short for fanatic. I didn’t say it was reasonable.Because too many fans are fickle, impatient children.
I agree wrt booing players.Booing your own guys is so childish and the people who did it at this get together should be embarrassed.
There's also the fact that they will feel obligated to get under the cap this year or next and they would be doing so in a year where they could otherwise spend or be more competitive. They finished in last place and failed to get under the cap, that's a problem.The impact of not getting under the cap was that two compensation picks they are getting will drop from 2nd round to the 5th round, along with a proportionate drop in spending pool money.
Given the low hit rate in the MLB draft once you get past the first round (the top 10, really), this seems like a very small price to pay. I can't believe people wanted them to punt on a 33% chance at the postseason in order to get a marginal gain in the draft.
We boo because we want to cheer. I wasn't at the Winter Weekend, but I have absolutely booed athletes under certain circumstances. A perfect example would be Durran not going after Tapia's inside the park homer last year. At the same time, I'm also amongst the first to stand for a solid pitching performance when I think the casual members of Fenway faithful don't truly appreciate such performances. The alternative here is to vote with our wallets. I could cancel my tickets (and at times I've debated it) or simply sell more of them. All of these are ways to address something you're dissatisfied with.Because too many fans are fickle, impatient children. Booing your own guys is so childish and the people who did it at this get together should be embarrassed. And I wouldn’t say they lost Xander so much as they decided that he wasn’t worth what he was going to get and let him walk.
... and of course if they had punted on the season everyone would have totally understoodThe impact of not getting under the cap was that two compensation picks they are getting will drop from 2nd round to the 5th round, along with a proportionate drop in spending pool money.
Given the low hit rate in the MLB draft once you get past the first round (the top 10, really), this seems like a very small price to pay. I can't believe people wanted them to punt on a 33% chance at the postseason in order to get a marginal gain in the draft.
And 3) he'd been hitting like absolute garbage for a month and a half straight at the deadline, so which team wanted to add him to their roster at all, let alone pay his salary?... and of course if they had punted on the season everyone would have totally understood
I would've like to see them jettison JD because I thought he was toast and that would've been enough to get them under the LT limit, but I think 1) it would've been reasonable to hope he had a bit of bounce back in him, and 2) I'm not sure on that math anyway.
Reporting at the time and subsequently has said that there were a few suitors for him. I understand the reasoning for it but if Bloom wanted to jettison salary to get under the tax he absolutely had the chance to do it. They had a shot at the wild card and the FO made the decision to go that route, no need to stack the deck more or act like he had no opportunities to get rid of salaryAnd 3) he'd been hitting like absolute garbage for a month and a half straight at the deadline, so which team wanted to add him to their roster at all, let alone pay his salary?
You can argue all you want that they had a chance at the playoffs, but they would have had to do far more than McGuire, Pham and Hosmer for that to be a realistic goal, let alone go deep in the playoffs. The 2022 deadline was a missed opportunity to reset the cap.
Oh come on, he's only had two top five MVP finishes in the three years since he left Boston. He's clearly not the player he once was!The guy who just posted a 136 OPS+, which was better than all but one of his seasons in Boston, has "regressed".
OK.
There appeared to be suitors, but not at the return Bloom wanted, which was reportedly talent and taking on his salary; if it was just a flyer prospect and absorbing his salary, then I think they might've found someone, after all, how many players have a bad month and then come back? I was pretty down on JD, and didn't think they'd offer him arb, so he was a candidate to be moved and replaced by someone not as famous, but likely to produce similarly (in my view) - that's basically what happened with Vazquez.And 3) he'd been hitting like absolute garbage for a month and a half straight at the deadline, so which team wanted to add him to their roster at all, let alone pay his salary?
What does cheering accomplish? It's fucking sports, nobody is accomplishing anything.You're allowed to boo, personally I think it's dumb and immature at any point. What does it ever accomplish?
Exactly. We keep going around and about on this stuff, bemoaning the lost opportunity that Bloom just couldn’t see cuz he’s clearly incompetent, without looking at what actually transpired.And 3) he'd been hitting like absolute garbage for a month and a half straight at the deadline, so which team wanted to add him to their roster at all, let alone pay his salary?
I mean, I would guess the people booing him (and Henry) would say that it's as much about process/plan as it is about results, and so is a lot more comparable to booing a player for bad approach than bad results. Like if a guy comes on with 1 out and guys on and takes HR swings on 3 straight in the dirt, he's more likely to get booed than the guy who pops out on a tough 3-2 pitch.Do people here really think Bloom is just sitting on his ass doing nothing? That he’s not running out his ground balls?? If so, I call bull sh!t. There’s no evidence of that. And in that context, booing him for interim/incomplete results, is petulant. You’re not 12 years old (apologies to posters here who are, in fact, 12 years old.).