There are pics in one of the threads here...anyone have the inclination to line up the videos and see if we can see what Gagne saw, i.e., the different angle of the glove? This is a cool story. I love the idea that Gagne and Cora used to sit around trying to find pitchers tipping their pitches. Team sport.
Right, but I'm interested in seeing the difference in his hand-positioning on fastballs and breaking balls before he realized he was tipping.There are pics in one of the threads here...
EDIT: Here are some pics of the 2 hand locations:
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/craig-kimbrel-dominant-closer.25242/page-3#post-3096504
Right, but I'm interested in seeing the difference in his hand-positioning on fastballs and breaking balls before he realized he was tipping.
Not every subscribes, so I think he was wondering if anyone else had it. Are posting pics from behind paywall frowned upon even if you don't post article?Photos are in the athletic piece.
12:30 for the relevant audio.Did anyone catch the Cora interview on eei on Friday? If it is being mentioned elsewhere, please let me know where because I would love to see the discussion. Anyway, Cora said he made a point of looking at the Astros dugout when Kimbrel started pitching to see if they had any reaction to the change he made. Sure enough, he said when he started to get into position they all started looking at each other in a wtf manner. I think that is such a cool little story.
It's easier to throw first pitch strikes when you don't have lingering doubts on tipping.He was also throwing first pitch strike fastballs which helped a ton.
You know, I wonder if there's a potential placebo effect of telling a struggling pitcher that he's been tipping pitches and 'fixing' him.It's easier to throw first pitch strikes when you don't have lingering doubts on tipping.
I think there is definately a mental component to a pitcher thinking "okay I fixed the problem."You know, I wonder if there's a potential placebo effect of telling a struggling pitcher that he's been tipping pitches and 'fixing' him.
And second and third pitch strikes.He was also throwing first pitch strike fastballs which helped a ton.
Was it control issues or simply pitching carefully to the one guy in the Astros lineup who'd been putting bat to ball consistently that night (2 for 3 with a double)? In retrospect, it seemed consistent with the strategy they took with the Astros throughout the series...the notion of it being better to walk a guy than give up an extra base hit.And second and third pitch strikes.
Even after he was “fixed” before Game 5 in Houston, he still walked a man on four pitches due to fastball control issues
Regarding the bolded - for this reason I was happy to see Kimbrel in there last night even with the four-run lead.It's probably a mixture of getting "fixed", tipping and just needing some more regular work.
+1. With planned days off, and it being the World F-ing Series, and the end of the season, I see no reason why Kimbrel shouldn't pitch in every game when ahead, even up by 10, and any game behind (yeah, like that might happen!) within 3.Regarding the bolded - for this reason I was happy to see Kimbrel in there last night even with the four-run lead.
+1. With planned days off, and it being the World F-ing Series, and the end of the season, I see no reason why Kimbrel shouldn't pitch in every game when ahead, even up by 10, and any game behind (yeah, like that might happen!) within 3.
The Dodgers would likely have known if the tipping problem is solved, regardless of what Cora and the Sox said publicly.Like you said Rip, its working.
However all the tipping talk does put some extra pressure on Kimbrel (not to do it again...even with more eyes looking for it) and does give the Dodgers something to look for. (Catching him doing it or something like it again).
Whereas if you keep that in house and quiet "Kimbrel must have been helped by the rest between the end of the ALCS and the beginning of the WS".
I worried aloud when they showed Brasier warming up. I thought: I don't know if he's gonna be warmed up enough given that they just got him up. I think maybe going with Kimbrel here is still the right move.Gotta say, quite baffled at the decision to put Kimbrel in, while up by 5 runs. Don't think he or Kelly are available tomorrow, even with it being the end of the season. He's thrown a lot of pitches in the last two days, and again did not look sharp last night/had a diminished fastball...
Once someone else got up (Brasier?) I thought for sure he would rest him. All good/we are in a great spot up 3-1, just a bit bothered by that move....
Inept ump and Swihart. You could see in Kimbrel’s face he couldn’t believe what was happeningWithout an inept ump, all different last night - no BB to the first batter and then probably no grooved pitch for the HR
Throw it out the window
Lumerloni was all over the tipping angle on the radio . Not just because of the HR. But also, all the takes on the curve.Brooks has the ump squeezing Kimbrel for four calls .. two of which were pretty egregious..
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/cache/numlocation_io.php-pitchSel=518886&game=gid_2018_10_27_bosmlb_lanmlb_1&batterX=&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=&league=mlb&pnf=&zlpo=&cache=1.gif
Know idea how Swihart affected that. That being said ..
It really looked like Kimbrel was tipping again. Hernandez’s HR on the hanger sure looked like he was expecting a curve ball.
Plus his stuff was subpar. He really needs a day off.
Brooks has the ump squeezing Kimbrel for four calls .. two of which were pretty egregious..
Time to get the Kimbrel Whisperer Eric Gagne on the phone again.Lumerloni was all over the tipping angle on the radio . Not just because of the HR. But also, all the takes on the curve.
During the regular season the home plate ump is supposed to review his night’s work using PitchFx .. I don’t know if this is the case in the post season. Regardless, I thought the ump had a pretty generous strike zone for most of the game .. which, inexplicably was reversed with Kimbrel.
Kimbrel threw 28 pitches to 6 batters. That is 15% of his pitches, effectively requiring him
MLB can look at this data just as well as we can. Is anything done on a regular basis to give umpires or the umpiring crew feedback?
Is there any systematic analysis of which umpires have more reliable strike zones, or the tendency of certain umpires to miss certain kinds of pitches? Seems like it would be easy analysis to develop and potentially quite useful.
Has anyone ever tried to measure the extent to which umps are influenced by a pitcher's overall tendencies or past record/reputation? I mean, it's kind of a cliche that "when a pitcher's always around the strike zone, he gets the borderline calls," but I can't recall seeing whether anybody's tried to verify that, now that we have the tools to do so.During the regular season the home plate ump is supposed to review his night’s work using PitchFx .. I don’t know if this is the case in the post season. Regardless, I thought the ump had a pretty generous strike zone for most of the game .. which, inexplicably was reversed with Kimbrel.
Sort of the opposite of the Maddux and Rivera strike zones.Has anyone ever tried to measure the extent to which umps are influenced by a pitcher's overall tendencies or past record/reputation? I mean, it's kind of a cliche that "when a pitcher's always around the strike zone, he gets the borderline calls," but I can't recall seeing whether anybody's tried to verify that, now that we have the tools to do so.
In other words, does the fact that Kimbrel has a reputation as an "effectively wild" kind of guy mean he'll get squeezed more, because umpires are predisposed to assume he's missing?
Maybe it’d have been a good idea to give Swihart more than 16 catching starts during the regular season.Inept ump and Swihart. You could see in Kimbrel’s face he couldn’t believe what was happening
It’s not that unusual to see a ball called when the catcher drops or misplays a strike or the catcher is set up inside and it’s an outside strike (and vice versa).If an ump is affected by a dropped ball on a pitch clearly in the zone, he needs to get better and calling strikes (his most important task in his professional life) or quit being a major league umpire since it’s obvious the league isn’t getting rid of these incompetent umpires. Instead they put some of these guys in the World Series. But I think the analysis will show that Ted Barrett might not have been worse, his calls overwhelming favored the Dodgers. Facts don’t lie. Might be still a SSS but 14 of 16 balls called strikes by Dodger pitchers is disturbing.
At least 4 and possibly 6 plus NO close pitches called strikes with Kimbrel out of 28 pitches when a bunch (how many?? 8? 10?) close pitches throughout the game were balls called strikes is even more disturbing.