A couple of Steeler fans called Mad Dog yesterday. And there complaint was not going for the first down on 4 &1 (or 2) on their on 28 right before the go ahead td.
2017 Steelers: MyFace Champions
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At least dogpiles can be fun. This is more like a dozen Andre the Giants flying off the top rope. I dealt with enough of that shit from MFY fans for the first 35 years of my life.
This is a thread to discuss the Steelers but not a thread to "Gronk" spike what happened, as Insta has put it. So it can be a thread for both Steelers AND Pats fans.
After a loss, it's easy to stay away from posting. Especially if the opposing fans *seem* to be egging/piling it on.
We all are interested in BbtL being for fans of all teams, including our rivals. I'm pretty committed to making sure non-NE fans continue to *want* to actively participate here.
It seems to me that the "spiking" is more of a particular reaction to Tomlin's idiocy today, rather than piling on after Sunday. I can see that being considered a distinction without a difference. Regardless, point taken.
Also agree with this. This isn't "suck it we beat you" so much as "WTF are Ben and Tomlin talking about"
OK, non game-thread-y topic.
I’ve never been a fan of Tomlin, I just don’t see the value he brings to his team. That being said, it cannot be denied that the Steelers as a team have done very well over the past 15 years.
I’ve heard it said that the key to their performance is Kevin Colbert, their GM and player personnel guy. The PFW guys in particular bang this drum, but I hear it elsewhere as well.
Just curious how others see this.
I’ve never been a fan of Tomlin, I just don’t see the value he brings to his team. That being said, it cannot be denied that the Steelers as a team have done very well over the past 15 years.
I’ve heard it said that the key to their performance is Kevin Colbert, their GM and player personnel guy. The PFW guys in particular bang this drum, but I hear it elsewhere as well.
Just curious how others see this.
Kevin Colbert is good, but he’s got his misses.
I’d take this line of reasoning more seriously if I didn’t hear it repeatedly during Cowher’s run and his benefit of having Tom Donahoe/Kevin Colbert running the roster. Felger, Mazz, and Bedard took it a step further and labeled Noll as a moron football hardo, just like Tomlin and Cowher.
I think Tomlin, like Cowher, was hired young and did not have the time to accrue years as an assistant to build up his game theory. Instead, he manages the team and empowers his assistants and players. I think this plays to his strengths, but it will never earn him the respect of critics who prefer the Uber genius coach.
One strange/frustrating thing is that critics talk about him like he’s a finished product. I see him as a coach who gradually is getting better as he gets older. He’s in his 11th season as coach and he’s still just 45 years old. To give that a little perspective, at 45 BB was working with Parcells on rebuilding the Jets. Pete was rebuilding his reputation in San Francisco after losing his 1st NFL job with the Jets. John Harbaugh was just finishing 10 years as an Eagles assistant before being hired by the Ravens.
It’s tough to judge Tomlin because he
walked into almost perfect situation in Pittsburgh:
-Stable ownership
-25 year old franchise QB
-Excellent coaching staff (Lebeau/Arians)
-Top ranked defense
But his record is hard to argue against and you rarely hear complaints from the players about his management style. If the Steelers fired him, I can’t imagine he’d stay unemployed for long.
walked into almost perfect situation in Pittsburgh:
-Stable ownership
-25 year old franchise QB
-Excellent coaching staff (Lebeau/Arians)
-Top ranked defense
But his record is hard to argue against and you rarely hear complaints from the players about his management style. If the Steelers fired him, I can’t imagine he’d stay unemployed for long.
Agree with all of this. But if he were, theoretically, fired this offseason, and then hired by, say, the Bengals, or the Giants... how successful do you think he would be there? Winning record overall? I have my doubts.
I don't want to get into the impermissible pile on, but what's astounding to me is how any coach in any sport, much less one that requires as much mental toughness as football, can make and allow excuses like Tomlin does. It's just so antithetical to my understanding of what makes successful athletes and champions to know that your coach will always provide a back door to pardon a loss.
He was a year older than Tomlin when Kraft hired him.
Tomlin isn’t the player personal man that Marvin Lewis is, but I think combined with a solid GM he’d be OK in Cincinnati (the ownership is what it is).
Yes, but the post was talking about where Carroll was at age 45, which was in 1996, a year before he was hired as HC in New England. Pete may be older than you think he is - he's the oldest coach in the league, older than BB.
It doesn't require a huge amount of charity to come up with reasonable emotional explanations for why Tomlin's approach works. E.g.:
- If he shows himself angry and frustrated by failure, his players know he understands their situation and are more willing to buy into whatever he's saying behind closed doors
- In press conferences he's feeding the press whatever will sound good and standing behind his team or whatever, but with the team in private, he's forcing accountability and delivering hard feedback. That would be straight out of the 48 laws of power: praise publicly, but criticize privately. Belichick does that too, he just doesn't also discuss events from the recent past, whereas Tomlin does.
- Finally, he may leave a far greater fraction of tactical accountability to his assistants than Belichick or Carroll do. He may set priorities and success factors for each unit, and discuss that with his coaches afterwards, but not have a direct hand in discussing individual play or execution failures with any players other than Roethlisberger. So you wouldn't hear him get into too much detail because he has truly delegated that.
Any of those could explain why what you're hearing is excuses, but what the team hears (or feels as a result of what they hear) might be totally different.
Is there any indication he's like that behind closed doors, especially given how his teams have generally talked to the press as well? It seems like an impossible tightrope act that you're describing.
This is roughly my opinion on Tomlin too, my sense is he gets close to the max out of whatever he's given in terms of players and staff. His personnel management style is very different from BB, but that doesn't mean it can't work. He seems to delegate effectively and has the respect of his team. His players seem generally sound in individual technique; what gaps do appear seem to be more around scheme and assignment. Their line play is consistently good or better. He won't ever give you the superlative attention to detail and strategic acumen of a BB, but nobody really does that.
Tomlin's track record is pretty solid, truth be told. He's no Marvin Lewis, Jim Caldwell, Jeff Fisher, or Bill O'Brien. And if he had a guy like Aaron Rodgers, he would be even better. Ben is a good QB, good like Stafford or Eli. He's not a generational talent.
Maybe he's not Belichick, but who is. And if it wasn't for the Pats, who knows how many more Super Bowls the Steelers would have won. They have consistently been in the mix since Tomlin's been there.
Agree on Tomlin, but you are way under selling Ben...there is no way he is in the Eli / Stafford echelon...Ben has been elite his entire career, while Eli and Stafford are good, but with brief stretches of greatness.
Seriously, as a rookie he completed 2/3 of his passes with a 8.9 YPA and a 98.1 passer rating... that was helped by having a great D and running game to back him, but Eli has never - not ever - had as high a passer rating as Ben did his rookie year. And that was pre-passing explosion.
Edit: in fact, Ben's career passer rating (93.9) is higher than any single season of Eli's career. They aren't close.
I know there's never any way to resolve this game, but Ben has had far better weapons most of his career than Eli or Stafford. The receivers that've gone through Pittsburgh are ridiculous, from Wallace to Sanders (sheds a tear) to Brown/Bryant/Schuster, and they've had good to great running backs in there too, though his O-line has often been weak.
Edit - not to say I don't think he's better than Eli and Stafford, because he clearly is, but the man has had some great skill position players throughout his career.
I only chime in when I have something of merit to say, and no interest in the crowing party that's been set up. Tomlin's no Belichick, but there's only one of those. BB is the taskmaster grandpa with his gruff unbending demands. Tomlin is much much younger and is largely seen as a player's coach, and he gets a huge amount of buy in from his players, he's more like the cooler older brother or cousin so some of these guys. The continuity and stability from the Rooneys and the understated efforts of Colbert (and the cap management of Khan if he's still there) are the perfect support environment for him. You guys tend to smugly talk shit about him for days on end but don't know much about him.
Tomlin has been successful in seasons where injuries devastated his lineup but the next man up mantra was actually followed and worked. They made the playoffs more than once under huge injury loads.
Big Ben is a hell of a lot better than Eli or Stafford. He's basically a Rodgers/Brees level talent but with a shorter peak, in part because of all the hits he's taken and because he doesn't take care of himself like Brady and others do. Ben's peak is/was really really good. But his variance has gotten far too wide as he's aged. At his best Ben is still an absolute beast. But he's not as reliable to give you that performance as he used to be.
Tomlin has been successful in seasons where injuries devastated his lineup but the next man up mantra was actually followed and worked. They made the playoffs more than once under huge injury loads.
Big Ben is a hell of a lot better than Eli or Stafford. He's basically a Rodgers/Brees level talent but with a shorter peak, in part because of all the hits he's taken and because he doesn't take care of himself like Brady and others do. Ben's peak is/was really really good. But his variance has gotten far too wide as he's aged. At his best Ben is still an absolute beast. But he's not as reliable to give you that performance as he used to be.
Zolak said on Monday that during that catch the offensive line was all standing there watching the play with their hands up instead of hustling down field to get ready like a prepared team would be. He said the Pats have been practicing this since the Parcells days as the last drill on Friday’s.
Regarding Stafford: we shouldn’t discount that he’s been a Detroit Lion for his entire career. Like Marvin Lewis’s coaching record with the Brown Family, I grade Stafford on a Ford Family curve.
While Cowher and Tomlin have benfitted from coaching Big Ben (Cowher’s list of QBs before 2004 is dire), he has benefited from them also. He’s a bozo off the field. It was clear early in his career that even his offensive line wasn’t in his corner. Managing Ben and his bullshit attitude can be a thankless task for whoever coaches him.
It's kind of surprising how successful the Steelers have been drafting or acquiring receivers, as well as moving on from them at the right time for that matter. Ward, Randle El, Santonio, Plaxico, Sanders, Brown, Bryant, Smith-Schuster.
Rushing it was basically Bettis, Mendenhall, Parker until Bell. Some sparks between Bus and Bell but nothing very solid, and the offensive line was bad until they drafted Pouncey and started seriously rebuilding the line.
I think the stability of the franchise has been a huge boost to Ben. Tomlin (and most coaches not named Darth Hoodie) regularly has to deal with off the field idiocy, whether Ben's crap, DUIs, etc. Managing that is a constant challenge, and Belichick's iron rule that precludes that crap from happening in New England is far and away the exception to the rule for football player behavior.
Even if it's hard to disaggregate performance of GM from performance of head coach and QB, if you take them as a collective, I think you'd be hard pressed to name 3 franchises other than New England that have done a better job at continuity, cap management, overall results, and reaching their potential despite adversity, at least in the 21st century. Colts? Seahawks? Ravens? Packers?
The comparison to the primary team of this forum kinda obfuscates the fact that being the #2 or #3 franchise in the NFL over a long span of time, with two titles and a third SB appearance, is damned good. But for the Patriots, the Steelers might well be the envy of the league. And some of the similarities between the two - such as the coach and QB continuity - ought to weigh more heavily as lessons for NFL fans than the perhaps-trite differences do.
The comparison to the primary team of this forum kinda obfuscates the fact that being the #2 or #3 franchise in the NFL over a long span of time, with two titles and a third SB appearance, is damned good. But for the Patriots, the Steelers might well be the envy of the league. And some of the similarities between the two - such as the coach and QB continuity - ought to weigh more heavily as lessons for NFL fans than the perhaps-trite differences do.
Great point about Tomlin’s age.
Not to start another Tomlin debate, but his raw stats are remarkable. Dude’s .655 winning percentage is 15th among all qualified NFL Head Coaches... ever. He’s just behind Tony Dungy and ahead of Seifert, McCarthy, and — notably —Cowher. As of this season he’ll have made the playoffs 8 of his 11 seasons. That’s pretty, prettttttty, pretttt-tay good.
Not to start another Tomlin debate, but his raw stats are remarkable. Dude’s .655 winning percentage is 15th among all qualified NFL Head Coaches... ever. He’s just behind Tony Dungy and ahead of Seifert, McCarthy, and — notably —Cowher. As of this season he’ll have made the playoffs 8 of his 11 seasons. That’s pretty, prettttttty, pretttt-tay good.
Will be really interesting to see what he does in the post-Ben era. If they can develop a good QB and continue their run, Tomlin has a chance to have a really long career given his youth and the ownership situation in PIT.
He definitely deserves credit for the consistency, but the team he inherited was 15-1, 11-5 and SB Champions, and then 8-8 the year before he came over. It's not like he hasn't always had one of the most talented rosters around. But, again, they haven't underperformed their talent like, say Cincy has some years.
My wish for the new year is that Tomlin works tirelessly this off-season to get this rule successfully changed. Steeler nation rejoices like they won the super bowl. Fast forward to the Pats Steelers playoff game in 2018. Gronk catches a TD pass late in the game that is ruled complete based on this rule change. Pats win. Steeler nation commits mass suicide due to overwhelming irony.
Jesus, any rule change would not be about the Patriots. It’s not always about us. Rightly or not, this controversy has festered at least since Dez and the playoff game. Any rule is neutral, and as noted above any change could easily come back to bite the Steelers in the ass.
If the rule changed *now*, it would certainly be about us. That's the point: something that has been existing in the background for a while might suddenly be an emergency for the competition committee because of the teams involved.
You have a point if they *don't* change it. But if they do, it's because of this game and the Pats.
The fact that the rule is neutral and could come back to bite the Steelers in the ass was literally his joke.
If they didn't change the rule after the Calvin Johnson and Dez Bryant plays, but come around to do it now, after what was pretty much a clear cut, textbook case of the rule being properly enforced in a way that's easy to explain to anyone who's willing to take 3 seconds to understand it, then it would certainly be about the Patriots.
Yeah, this smells like bullshit.
It's possible that help "failed" on helping with the 2-pt, but that would be a pretty monumental failure considering he was completely isolated on an island for the play. I mean, thats why they line him up wide and run a fade to begin with.
Saying he was supposed to have help on that play shows a lack of understanding for basic football scheme. You can't double him when he splits wide - at least not without a ton of exposure in the middle of the field - and there's no way safety help gets to him on a 2-point play. Again, this is why they split Gronk wide to begin with. It puts him on an island. Aditi was either fed some bullshit, or she's just making things up.
Let's consider the rule changes that resulted after a big Patriots victory:
1.) Tuck Rule. To be fair, that took a few tries, as the rule was originally put in place for reasons of QB safety.
2.) Defensive holding. Not a rule change per se, but instead a directive to make the 5-yard contact window be a "point of emphasis" after Poilan's Dolts lost to the Pats.
3.) Ineligible/eligible receiver rules. Overreaction to the Pats beating the Ravens.
Somehow, the Cowboys losing a playoff game (actually, the NFC Championship Game) wasn't enough to get the rule changed. But now they want the rule to be reconsidered? Anyone who thinks this isn't about the Patriots needs to buy that bridge that's for sale on Ebay.
The defensive holding point of emphasis was the most egregious. A direct result of the Pats manhandling the Colts and Manning two post-seasons in a row and Polian demanding change. Unlike this, the catch vs. no-catch rule wouldn't have more of an impact on the Pats positive or negative than it would on the rest of the league.
It was actually after 2003, which is why Bruschi had the famous changes the rules post game speech after the 2004 win
Aditi KinkhabwalaVerified account @AKinkhabwala 22h22 hours ago
Mike Tomlin says majority of time during the Jesse James non-TD review was spent weighing what to do if ball was spotted at 1-yard line. B/c THAT is what refs indicated to him was the likely ruling. (Clock would've run, minus 10 seconds)
Mike Tomlin says majority of time during the Jesse James non-TD review was spent weighing what to do if ball was spotted at 1-yard line. B/c THAT is what refs indicated to him was the likely ruling. (Clock would've run, minus 10 seconds)
They just lie. Lie lie lie and blame others.
Shhhh. It looks and feels good to write that it’s not about us. Good for the sense of objectivity that one should bring to these discussions.
I’m glad you laid out those examples...but it’s self-evident that a change during this off season, given the inaction after prior such calls, will be because that the Pats were advantaged pisses off just about everyone involved with the NFL who doesn’t root for them.
Oh fer chrissakes rules change all the time because of a specific team. Power plays used to last the full 2:00 regardless of how many goals were scored until Montreal became too proficient at it. For a while coincidental minors did not result on 4 on 4 play because Gretzky, Messier, et al would score even more goals. Defensive backs (especially Mel Blount) would assault WRs in the 1970s so the rules were tightened.
Pretty much where I'm at. The players seem to like him a lot and are willing to go through walls for him so that's a huge positive. On the other hand, there are times when I get frustrated that he's not the greatest tactician. It's probably an unfair benchmark because my reference point is Belichick who has something close to three times as many years working in the NFL as Tomlin and who also learned from one of the best in Parcells. But then I look around and see Dan Quinn and Mike McCarthy are head coaches and it makes me feel better about Tomlin.
I'm trying to figure out whio you are calling a liar? I think you mean Tomlin, but I'm not sure.
(not criticizing...just want to clarify)
And he's won a Super Bowl, and won two AFC Championships. The guy is not chopped liver at all. That he's not Belichick is no slight.
Yeah and just like that time when Carson Palmer's ACL meant absolutely nothing to the league, but Tom Brady's made them change the rule of where you could hit the QB.
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