The WNBA: Thread II

[reggiecleveland]

Just a total meltdown by the Sky. An embarrassing second half and these teams are moving fast in two different directions.

Seems both teams got what they wanted. The Fever won, and AR got her 10/10. Witherspoon clearly condones the physical shots at Clark. Teh Fever could not handle Cardosa, but they don't run much to get her the ball. Ahe passes out of the post pretty well too.

I like Jackson a lot but not sure she’s better than Reese.

She certainly attempts more 3s - 34 made in 90 attempts compared to 2 of 11 for Reese.

But her rebounding is substantially less - 188 vs 388. She’s had fewer assists - 43 vs 53. She’s had a few more turnovers - 60 vs 58 (though both combined still don’t get close to Clark’s 171).

Jackson also has fewer steals (19 vs 38) and blocks (8 vs 16).

Now do shooting efficiency.

Reese got to work with just over 3 minutes left after Boston and Clark checked out and down 27 scoring the majority of her points and securing her usual inconsequential double double.

She doesn't get there without being the one who shoots FTS for techs.
Her whining to the refs, coaches, teammates while her teammate cheapshots Clark three times in a row was a super bad look. She just strikes me as really immature. Her jealousy of Caitlin could not be more obvious.

 

[riboflav]

These two videos really highlight Clark's ability to operate in small spaces, dominate the PnR, and how much attention she draws. They also show how many layups her teammates miss on would-be assists.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ2JJIDZmCs


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odeynPzBD8U&t=106s

 

[worm0082]

Oh for crying out loud here we go again. This is absolutely ridiculous the beatings this girl is taking.

View: https://twitter.com/barstoolsports/status/1829695751363977571

 

[riboflav]

Seems both teams got what they wanted. The Fever won, and AR got her 10/10. Witherspoon clearly condones the physical shots at Clark. Teh Fever could not handle Cardosa, but they don't run much to get her the ball. Ahe passes out of the post pretty well too.


Now do shooting efficiency.


She doesn't get there without being the one who shoots FTS for techs.
Her whining to the refs, coaches, teammates while her teammate cheapshots Clark three times in a row was a super bad look. She just strikes me as really immature. Her jealousy of Caitlin could not be more obvious.

Cardoso has a higher ceiling as an impact player than Reese which is probably why they drafted her higher and you’re right. She is an afterthought in their offense right now.

 

[riboflav]

Oh for crying out loud here we go again. This is absolutely ridiculous the beatings this girl is taking.

View: https://twitter.com/barstoolsports/status/1829695751363977571

So I think Caitlin is tough and can take all of this and also this stuff happens in the W. My thing is ok Diamond you’ve chucked her three times in a row and still have the nerve to beg the refs? Ok ok.

 

[reggiecleveland]

So I think Caitlin is tough and can take all of this and also this stuff happens in the W. My thing is ok Diamond you’ve chucked her three times in a row and still have the nerve to beg the refs? Ok ok.

Coach needed to take her out after the 2nd one. Honestly the team lost their minds after Clark got it going, they need to forget about it. What was that three flagrants against one player? TW should be fined.

 

[riboflav]

At the risk of piling on, here's another one. But, I'm mostly posting it to note the number of views he's getting. He cleared 100,000 views on this one in 7 hours. Uncut Hoops, who I don't think has as many followers, also cleared 100,000 views in about 8 hours, today. These probably aren't NBA numbers and I don't really know if I should compare them. I can't compare them to last year's W because well haha these guys and others weren't doing video breakdowns on the W. Still, 100,000 in 7 hours feels like a lot to me.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Moqo2qj-hU4

 

[riboflav]

Coach needed to take her out after the 2nd one. Honestly the team lost their minds after Clark got it going, they need to forget about it. What was that three flagrants against one player? TW should be fined.

I had it on somewhat in the background. Were there really three fragrant fouls in a row? My god. I had the announcers turned up and they seemed so casual about it all that I didn't take note of it.

 

[riboflav]

Also, it'd be awesome if a mod could break this out into a W 2024 thread or something. I think the 2024 season started on page 3. I guess I'm hoping we have enough interest here now that there is a new thread every year.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I had it on somewhat in the background. Were there really three fragrant fouls in a row? My god. I had the announcers turned up and they seemed so casual about it all that I didn't take note of it.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">17% of the WNBA&#39;s flagrant fouls this season were committed against Caitlin Clark. <br><br>The Chicago Sky are responsible for 80% of the flagrants committed against Clark. <br><br>(Via <a href="https://twitter.com/CClarkReport?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@CClarkReport</a>) <br> <a href="https://t.co/L82fJFkzNl">pic.twitter.com/L82fJFkzNl</a></p>&mdash; BricksCenter (@BricksCenter) <a href="View: https://twitter.com/BricksCenter/status/1830062108220014759?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
">September 1, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[slamminsammya]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">17% of the WNBA&#39;s flagrant fouls this season were committed against Caitlin Clark. <br><br>The Chicago Sky are responsible for 80% of the flagrants committed against Clark. <br><br>(Via <a href="https://twitter.com/CClarkReport?ref_src=twsrc^tfw">@CClarkReport</a>) <br> <a href="https://t.co/L82fJFkzNl">pic.twitter.com/L82fJFkzNl</a></p>&mdash; BricksCenter (@BricksCenter) <a href="View: https://twitter.com/BricksCenter/status/1830062108220014759?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
">September 1, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

so is that 12 pct of all flagrant are the sky against clark do i have the math right?

 

[GreyisGone]

so is that 12 pct of all flagrant are the sky against clark do i have the math right?

13.6% if those numbers above aren’t rounded.

 

[BaseballJones]

Cardoso has a higher ceiling as an impact player than Reese which is probably why they drafted her higher and you’re right. She is an afterthought in their offense right now.

It's crazy. She's 6'7" and has a nice touch around the rim. Why aren't they getting her the ball more? Coaching malpractice.

 

[reggiecleveland]

It's crazy. She's 6'7" and has a nice touch around the rim. Why aren't they getting her the ball more? Coaching malpractice.

To give benefit of the doubt, she was injured to start year, and they may be concerned with her durability, and reduce her practice time. It is still tough defend not getting her the ball when she is out there. I can't imagine the pressure TW is under to get Reese her stats, and make her a focus though.

 

[worm0082]

Twitter seems to be making a big deal about Reese setting rebound numbers, but a majority of them come from her bricking layups from 1 foot away from the rim.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

Twitter seems to be making a big deal about Reese setting rebound numbers, but a majority of them come from her bricking layups from 1 foot away from the rim.

How many of them are her own rebounds?

edit: I am glad to see ESPN covering this. It is true Clark has brought the rest of the league more exposure, for sure.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Pretty clear message by ESPN replacing Swoopes with Lieberman. Lieberman made a speech just after halftime about how much money CC would make all the players in the league and how dumb it is that some people refuse to embrace this phenomena and only hurt themselves and the game. Later she added that if anyone doubts she is overwhelming ROY to hit her up on twitter.

One thing I like about WNBA coverage is it is the "try harder' league and the announcers do their homework. It is rare (other than from Swoopes and a few other name analysts) to get info on a team or player without stats or examples. It has made me realize how much NBA coverage is just a guy with name making off the cuff observations.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Twitter seems to be making a big deal about Reese setting rebound numbers, but a majority of them come from her bricking layups from 1 foot away from the rim.

I’ve seen lists out there with Reese over 30 OffReb ahead of the second highest (Boston?) when excluding those off your own misses. No idea of the validity.

 

[Euclis20]

I’ve seen lists out there with Reese over 30 OffReb ahead of the second highest (Boston?) when excluding those off your own misses. No idea of the validity.

Yeah I've heard the same. The constant comparisons with Clark do her no favors, she's got some major holes in her game and some of the stat padding would make Russell Westbrook blush, but that doesn't change the fact that she's the best offensive rebounder in the league by a lot, as a rookie. The difference between her and Boston in 2nd is equal to the difference between Boston and Aaliyah Edwards, who is 22nd.

 

[SteveF]

FWIW, Reeses on/off rebounding numbers are extraordinary. When she is on the court, the Sky have a 33.5% Oreb%. Off court, 18.4% Oreb%. She has a pretty large impact on Dreb% as well -- 79% on, 68.1% off. So whether she's padding her stats or not, she's having a massive impact on her team's ability to rebound.

She does have 37 Z-bounds (of 158 total Orebs) so that puts the Oreb% in some context. She has 121 offensive rebounds of non-own-misses. Next highest is Boston with 76 (99-23 Z-bounds) offensive rebounds of non-own-misses. So the actual difference between her and Boston is 45.

The Sky have a net rating of 0 when she is on the court, and -21.9 when she is off. Single season plus/minus is pretty noisy (maybe so much so that it's worthless, especially given the number of games), but that's a pretty large number.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Here is the speech from Lieberman I tried to parahrase
View: https://twitter.com/Ballislife/status/1830397951522263517

 

[riboflav]

Here is the speech from Lieberman I tried to parahrase
View: https://twitter.com/Ballislife/status/1830397951522263517

She kept calling Clark a top-5 player based on her current play and I was like all right calm down. But, then, I did a mental list and here's what I came up with:

1. Wilson
2. Collier
3. Stewart
4. Ionescu
5. Thomas
6. Young

That would be my top six but I think with the way Clark has been playing over the last 10-plus games, she probably is 4. I'd accept 5. So, yeah, pretty pretty good. Not unprecedented of course. Candace Parker was the MVP her rookie year.

 

[riboflav]

Yeah I've heard the same. The constant comparisons with Clark do her no favors, she's got some major holes in her game and some of the stat padding would make Russell Westbrook blush, but that doesn't change the fact that she's the best offensive rebounder in the league by a lot, as a rookie. The difference between her and Boston in 2nd is equal to the difference between Boston and Aaliyah Edwards, who is 22nd.

She invited the comparisons; made it a point to do so. But, yes, a top-20-25 player at best should not be compared to a top-5ish player. We agree on that.

 

[Euclis20]

She invited the comparisons; made it a point to do so. But, yes, a top-20-25 player at best should not be compared to a top-5ish player. We agree on that.

For sure, she's not blameless. It still doesn't mean that an impartial assessment of her rookie season should have anything to do with Clark. Plenty of players with an inflated idea of their own abilities are excellent athletes.

 

[BaseballJones]

She kept calling Clark a top-5 player based on her current play and I was like all right calm down. But, then, I did a mental list and here's what I came up with:

1. Wilson
2. Collier
3. Stewart
4. Ionescu
5. Thomas
6. Young

That would be my top six but I think with the way Clark has been playing over the last 10-plus games, she probably is 4. I'd accept 5. So, yeah, pretty pretty good. Not unprecedented of course. Candace Parker was the MVP her rookie year.

Yeah I love Ionescu but I’m not at all sure she’s better than Clark at this point. Might be. It’s close either way.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Clark turns the ball over so much though. That to me has her out of the MVP race. I think her TOs will remain higher thanother elite PG since it is the team's style to play at a high pace an a few TOs are the price of playing that way. But, she makes a 2-3 really bad TOs each game where she forces it or gets sloppy.

 

[Bosoxian]

For sure, she's not blameless. It still doesn't mean that an impartial assessment of her rookie season should have anything to do with Clark. Plenty of players with an inflated idea of their own abilities are excellent athletes.

I think we’ll see more of this with the self promotion that NIL is driving in the college game.

 

[Bosoxian]

Clark turns the ball over so much though. That to me has her out of the MVP race. I think her TOs will remain higher thanother elite PG since it is the team's style to play at a high pace an a few TOs are the price of playing that way. But, she makes a 2-3 really bad TOs each game where she forces it or gets sloppy.

A lot of her TOs were because her teammates weren’t expecting the ball. If you look her TO numbers are down compared to earlier in the year.

 

[amh03]

A lot of her TOs were because her teammates weren’t expecting the ball. If you look her TO numbers are down compared to earlier in the year.

Her lowest TOs (total currently at 181) recently were 8/26 and 8/30 with 2 and 3, respectively. July 6th she had 4 and she had 3 on June 2nd & 10th. The other 25 games she’s pretty consistently in the 5-7 range. I’m not seeing a downward trend at this point.

Now what has improved since the start of the season are Clark’s assist numbers. Prior to June 23rd she ranged from 2-9 w most games in the 6-7-8 range. But since that late June game, she’s had 10 games w double digit assists. So clearly, she and her team are figuring it out.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Clark seems to have her edge back. She started the season under a barrage of jealosy?hate?criticism and went 1-8, and she seemed to be going out of her way to be a good sport, but recently especially in Chicago she had her cockiness back. Chicken or the egg, obviously since she has been shooting better. The game in Chicago where she was united celebrating with her teammates after an epic ass kicking is a long way from nobody helping her up when she was fouled hard.

A lot of her TOs were because her teammates weren’t expecting the ball. If you look her TO numbers are down compared to earlier in the year.

My view her teammate cost her assists more than TOS. What is really special about Clark is she keeps giving them the ball even after misses. One of her recent hihlights was the and 1 to Temi Fagbenle who had missed 4 or 5 layups in a row before that. Earlier in the year she had more negative body language when they missed shots, but now she is cutting that out.

So clearly, she and her team are figuring it out.

I think the coach has figured it out. Early season the talk was about how Clark was costing Boston looks, and wasn't working with Mitchell. The offence was running lots of cross screens and PNR with Boston as the focus. Now the team has embraced running with Lexie Hull playing more over the bigger but slower Samuelson. They are playing more Caitlin's pace and Mitchell is killing it in the running game. Fagbenle really runs the floor, and Smith is running better too. If I went back to my HS team I would run the Iverson Cut, Ballscreen to stagger, or the empty corner to short roll actions they have been runnin glately. Boston is kinda the third wheel now but seems happy. Hull has helped improve their D that gets them out running. Dantas gives them a second scoring forward, and most important a stetch forward. I really like the small lineup where Erica Wheeler plays with Mitchell and Hull. They really get after the ball.

 

[reggiecleveland]

One last playoff spot to determine. Fever and Mercury clinch with Dream, Sky losses.

 

[BaseballJones]

MVP candidates:

Wilson: 27.5 points, 52.6% FG, 12.1 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 1.9 steals, 2.7 blocks
Collier: 20.4 points, 49.2% FG, 9.8 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 1.9 steals, 1.3 blocks
Stewart: 20.5 points, 45.9% FG, 8.7 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 1.8 steals, 1.3 blocks
Ionescu: 19.5 points, 41.4% FG, 4.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 1.0 steals, 0.3 blocks
Clark: 18.7 points, 42.4% FG, 5.6 rebounds, 8.4 assists, 1.4 steals, 0.8 blocks - transformed the Fever in the process

I still think Wilson is the choice - from start to finish she's been by far the most dominant player in the league. Clark definitely should not win it, but dang if she hasn't had an incredible rookie season. It's not just the numbers. It's how she's taken a moribund franchise, lifted it on her shoulders, and transformed it, while being the most targeted player in the league for cheap shots. She's also clearly the league's actual most valuable player given what she's done for the league overall.

 

[InstaFace]

Sports Leagues should have a Most Marketable Player award that they give to whoever drew in the most fan attention, media coverage, online discussion and game attendance. Like whoever was most fun and got people talking. That's half of why we watch, why not lean into it and make players understand that it's a worthy goal to pursue if they're so inclined.

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

Yes I think with the Aces rallying and Wilson being so far and above the competition, she is in great shape to win it. When the Aces were scuffling midseason, the narrative wasn't lining up too well. If they went from 34 wins last year to only around 20 wins this year, that could be held against A'ja's MVP case.

 

[kfoss99]

The most valuable player to the league is Clark, by far. As in, the player that added the most financial value to the league.

I don't know if it will stick, but she took the entire Association from the minors to the majors from attendance, engagement, and television contract.

It's cool that she has lived up to the hype and should lead the Fever to the playoffs.

 

[snowmanny]

Has there ever been a woman in a team sport who was the biggest team sport star in town when the town also had at least one big 4 men’s team? Because I have to imagine Clark is a bigger star than anyone on the Colts. And I’m thinking she’s catching up with Haliburton.

 

[BaseballJones]

Has there ever been a woman in a team sport who was the biggest team sport star in town when the town also had at least one big 4 men’s team? Because I have to imagine Clark is a bigger star than anyone on the Colts. And I’m thinking she’s catching up with Haliburton.

There's a good chance she's more popular than Haliburton too.

 

[TheRooster]

There's a good chance she's more popular than Haliburton too.

Right. Imagine if they each did a free autograph session this Friday night. CC prob gets 3x as much traffic as Hali.

 

[smokin joe wood]

Right. Imagine if they each did a free autograph session this Friday night. CC prob gets 3x as much traffic as Hali.

This is a really interesting hypothetical. I've lived in Indy for about 20 years and my guess is it would be 55/45 Haliburton if this was done tomorrow. The institution of the Pacers locally is incredibly popular and Clark has only been a member of the community for a few months. Fun thought exercise.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Wow they call carry in the WNBA. Another reason to love it

 

[tims4wins]

Fever going to be 17-8 after their 1-8 start.

 

[ElUno20]

No doubt she was going to be generational but even this run has been a little surprising so soon.

Love her game so much and she's an amazing role model too.

Playoffs year 1 is amazing.

 

[BigMike]

Triple double tonight. I loved the announcer asking her postgame about the rebound she got on the last shot and whether she knew she needed it for the Triple Double , and she was like of course i did. Then said something like hey someone had to get it.

Got to love the honesty.

 

[reggiecleveland]

No doubt she was going to be generational but even this run has been a little surprising so soon.

Her shot is falling. I would be terrified of her the same way I am of Curry. A month ago I would not have said that. The togetherness and enthusiasm of the team is unexpected so soon.Nalyssa Smith, who seemed reluctant to buy in (understandable, her partner is one of the more ciritcial players toward Clark) is now being the physical force they need.

 

[Bosoxian]

This is a really interesting hypothetical. I've lived in Indy for about 20 years and my guess is it would be 55/45 Haliburton if this was done tomorrow. The institution of the Pacers locally is incredibly popular and Clark has only been a member of the community for a few months. Fun thought exercise.

I see a lot more Clark jerseys around town than Halliburton.

 

[ElUno20]

Her shot is falling. I would be terrified of her the same way I am of Curry. A month ago I would not have said that. The togetherness and enthusiasm of the team is unexpected so soon.Nalyssa Smith, who seemed reluctant to buy in (understandable, her partner is one of the more ciritcial players toward Clark) is now being the physical force they need.

That's what i didn't get about the idiots early on. She was still impacting the game when her shot was falling. Like did they expect a great shooter to go in a lifelong slump?

 

[luckiestman]

I have a very hard time believing Halliburton is more famous than Clark anywhere, especially Indiana. That sounds really really ridiculous to me. Clark is mega famous. I think most students at my kids school know who Clark is and this is in New England.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Kids I coach from ages 10 to 16, boys and girls will say 'Caitlin Clark!' when launching long shots. I coached a generation (for around here ) shooter and when on the road at a tournament the opposing kids started the game chanting "Overrated!" He went off and we blew them out so badly they started calling him 'Caitlin' and he considered it a complement.

 

[reggiecleveland]

View: https://twitter.com/jackmaloneycbs/status/1566488971168841729?s=21&t=VNrLozWfgnH4tN5ip1CeUg

That's funny. That is the frustration of coaching right there.

 

[smokin joe wood]

I have a very hard time believing Halliburton is more famous than Clark anywhere, especially Indiana. That sounds really really ridiculous to me. Clark is mega famous. I think most students at my kids school know who Clark is and this is in New England.

If you're referring to me saying it would be 55/45 Haliburton, that's my opinion as someone who lives in the city and has for a couple of decades. Last night there was a sign that read "I came from MA to see #22" which is probably proof positive for both of us in our viewpoints. Clark has much more broad appeal, that isn't close. In the city of Indianapolis - Haliburton has done a ton in the community, is coming off 'playing' for team USA and is the best player in a decade to play for the state's most popular basketball team. Clark has been here since April. She will become the most beloved Indianapolis-based athlete since Manning but it will take more time than 4 months.