The Nation's Tears (C's Edition!)

NYCSox

chris hansen of goats
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 19, 2004
10,608
Some fancy town in CT
Awfully salty for a franchise that's now behind 18-12*

* Minneapolis doesn't count. Same reason why Atlanta Braves fans can't count the 1914 (Boston) and 1957 (Milwaukee) titles.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
23,371
Awfully salty for a franchise that's now behind 18-12*

* Minneapolis doesn't count. Same reason why Atlanta Braves fans can't count the 1914 (Boston) and 1957 (Milwaukee) titles.
Correct, someone in that thread is talking about how they are happy that at least the Lakers have more modern titles than the Celtics, and I want to make an account and respond "The only reason you guys are even close is by counting the Minnesota titles that were won before the shot clock was invented and Black players were not allowed in the NBA."
 

jose melendez

Earl of Acie
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2003
31,682
Geneva, Switzerland
Correct, someone in that thread is talking about how they are happy that at least the Lakers have more modern titles than the Celtics, and I want to make an account and respond "The only reason you guys are even close is by counting the Minnesota titles that were won before the shot clock was invented and Black players were not allowed in the NBA."
SO I looked this up, and the NBA was integrated by the time of those Mikan titles. Or do I somehow have that wrong.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
12,327
around the way
Correct, someone in that thread is talking about how they are happy that at least the Lakers have more modern titles than the Celtics, and I want to make an account and respond "The only reason you guys are even close is by counting the Minnesota titles that were won before the shot clock was invented and Black players were not allowed in the NBA."
Lakers fans cherry picking the modern era is mind-boggling. The Minnesota titles were won before we had 50 states.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
23,371
SO I looked this up, and the NBA was integrated by the time of those Mikan titles. Or do I somehow have that wrong.
The Lakers did win two titles before integration, which occurred at the start of the 1950-1951 season. However, integration meant basically there were a tiny amount of Black players in the league. They did beat the Knicks twice in the finals, who had one of only a half-dozen Black players in the league at the time in Nat Clifton. It wasn't until the Russell-era Celtics with Russell, KC Jones, Satch Sanders, etc. that the informal "two Blacks per team" rule was broken.
 

SemperFidelisSox

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2008
32,302
Boston, MA
The Lakers will gladly count the accomplishments of the Minneapolis teams even though they didn’t do anything to help when George Mikan was struggling to pay his medical bills, and only just retired his number in 2022.

And there is a statue of Mikan….in Minnesota. Not LA.
 

jose melendez

Earl of Acie
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 23, 2003
31,682
Geneva, Switzerland
The Lakers did win two titles before integration, which occurred at the start of the 1950-1951 season. However, integration meant basically there were a tiny amount of Black players in the league. They did beat the Knicks twice in the finals, who had one of only a half-dozen Black players in the league at the time in Nat Clifton. It wasn't until the Russell-era Celtics with Russell, KC Jones, Satch Sanders, etc. that the informal "two Blacks per team" rule was broken.
Thanks
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
16,159
If they are counting Minneapolis then it’s clear that George Mikan is the greatest Laker of them all. He won as many titles as any Laker, and unlike West/Chamberlain, Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe, LeBron/AD, he did it without another all-timer.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
76,360
If they are counting Minneapolis then it’s clear that George Mikan is the greatest Laker of them all. He won as many titles as any Laker, and unlike West/Chamberlain, Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe, LeBron/AD, he did it without another all-timer.
No, it's Paula Abdul.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,896
The LA picks were defensible. Simmons, if youd done your homework you might have detected something but maybe not. Fultz wasn't right AT THE TIME, no defending it.
Agreed. Ingram and and a healthy Lonzo may not be a home run but those are two solid to really good players (again, when healthy). Everyone was taking Simmons so that’s more on Philly for not getting rid of him with all the additional information they had before his value cratered.
 

RSN Diaspora

molests goats for comedy
SoSH Member
Jul 29, 2005
11,920
Washington, DC
Fultz wasn't right AT THE TIME, no defending it.
Danny obviously saw it that way, and thank God he did, but Fultz was a consensus #1 pick. It was because he was almost universally believed to be the best player in the draft that Danny could comfortably trade that pick and be reasonably sure Tatum would be available at #3. I don’t think a whole lot of people would’ve cautioned against taking Fultz at the time.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,661
Danny obviously saw it that way, and thank God he did, but Fultz was a consensus #1 pick. It was because he was almost universally believed to be the best player in the draft that Danny could comfortably trade that pick and be reasonably sure Tatum would be available at #3. I don’t think a whole lot of people would’ve cautioned against taking Fultz at the time.
You can find a whole lot of SoSHers criticizing that deal at the time because historically number one picks are so much more valuable (on average) than number three picks.

That remains statistically true—but scouting (get the right player) ended up being the key, not historical values by slot…Jayson Tatum was simply a lot better than Markelle Fultz. And they realized it, by all accounts.

And maybe also the brain doctor or something else that happened on Fultz’ visit to Boston that made them believe Tatum was their guy (and Fultz was not)
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
28,245
Saskatoon Canada
Danny obviously saw it that way, and thank God he did, but Fultz was a consensus #1 pick. It was because he was almost universally believed to be the best player in the draft that Danny could comfortably trade that pick and be reasonably sure Tatum would be available at #3. I don’t think a whole lot of people would’ve cautioned against taking Fultz at the time.
MAgic deserves credit in being clear he was taking Ball and putting his honor on that promise. That was just as nice as his play in the 84 finals.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
Danny obviously saw it that way, and thank God he did, but Fultz was a consensus #1 pick. It was because he was almost universally believed to be the best player in the draft that Danny could comfortably trade that pick and be reasonably sure Tatum would be available at #3. I don’t think a whole lot of people would’ve cautioned against taking Fultz at the time.
Something was knowable though. Philly may have truly had no way of knowing what boston suspected, and maybe ainge just wanted to take a risk on a teenaged wing vs guard so we got lucky. But i wouldn't be in a rush to let those Colagelo morons off the hook.
 

RSN Diaspora

molests goats for comedy
SoSH Member
Jul 29, 2005
11,920
Washington, DC
Something was knowable though. Philly may have truly had no way of knowing what boston suspected, and maybe ainge just wanted to take a risk on a teenaged wing vs guard so we got lucky. But i wouldn't be in a rush to let those Colagelo morons off the hook.
I mean if the general argument is that Colangelo ensured Hinkie's legacy would be closer to an infected abscess than a trustworthy process, then sure. But a lot of people not named Ainge or Colangelo thought Fultz was a can't-miss pick.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,899
Well, the Celtics won’t really have proven anything until they win the in season tournament like the Lakers /s
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
16,159
I mean if the general argument is that Colangelo ensured Hinkie's legacy would be closer to an infected abscess than a trustworthy process, then sure. But a lot of people not named Ainge or Colangelo thought Fultz was a can't-miss pick.
The Lakers also f’d up but of course they were blinded by Lonzo’s star power. The nerve of Danny Ainge to make that trade and ultimately embarrass the Sixers and Lakers in the process is up there with Red signing half the Knicks to offer sheets in 1983 to keep them away from McHale.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,857
Imaginationland
The Lakers also f’d up but of course they were blinded by Lonzo’s star power. The nerve of Danny Ainge to make that trade and ultimately embarrass the Sixers and Lakers in the process is up there with Red signing half the Knicks to offer sheets in 1983 to keep them away from McHale.
90% chance that if the Lakers had drafted Brown and Tatum instead of Ingram and Ball, they'd be in the exact same place they are now. Those guys would've both been moved for AD, almost without question. The Lakers can still hate those drafts because it may have given the Celtics a title contending core for the next 15 years, but I don't see a world in which either guys would still be with the Lakers even if they drafted them. Maybe the Pelicans feel that pain.
 

nayrbrey

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,614
Driving somewhere most likely
Red signing half the Knicks to offer sheets in 1983 to keep them away from McHale.
Oh wow that just jogged my memory. I remember Rory Sparrow was one of them. Couldn’t recall who the other ones were so found this blog post from years ago:

http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/2008/07/auerbach-outsmarts-knicks-to-keep.html

As soon as the 1983 NBA Finals ended, the New York Knicks began their pursuit of Boston Celtics forward Kevin McHale, a restricted free agent. The Knicks offered McHale $3.6m over three years.

In response, the Celtics Red Auerbach signed three Knick free agents to exorbitant offer sheets. The Knicks immediately matched the offers Boston had made to Marvin Webster, Sly Williams and Rory Sparrow, and thus spent the money they had allotted to get McHale. Red then resigned McHale to a four-year, $4m deal.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,823
The LA picks were defensible. Simmons, if youd done your homework you might have detected something but maybe not. Fultz wasn't right AT THE TIME, no defending it.
I'm not sure that anyone, prior to draft night, could see Fultz's mental health issues.