The Sox are not winning the World Series next year and had 77 million to spend. They are not winning the World Series next year and now have 87 million to spend and a few lottery tickets. It’s fine, building teams is fun.
How does it close the book when three new characters have just been introduced to the story?We didn't even get a 2B out of this? Why
Closes the book on the Betts trade as a massive failure that everyone involved should have follow them to their graves and beyond.
There are probably 1000 “would have been out at the toilet” comments in game threads over Verdugo’s time here.Should definitely be a great move for Verdugo's impending free agency:
View: https://twitter.com/RotoClegg/status/1732229724665991251
I may have misrepresented myself. I’m not in panic at all, I just don’t think they’re setup to win next year. I think building from the bottom up is the top component of making a team who competes annually. Looking at who is available out there, other than the very top end of the market, there isn’t many clear cut ways to build a World Series contender starting next year.I wouldnt go into panic mode just yet Nipper. I hardly think the offseason ends here. You can be sure there are a lot of follow on moves. Keep your powder dry and your shorts on for a while yet
Yes. This is Breslow allowing himself to be influenced by Cora, who almost certainly was behind all the “Verdugo needs to be traded” talk prior to this move. I had been hoping new leadership in the GM office might have put that to bed, but it seems like maybe the opposite has happened.Getting rid of a player Cora had issues with to make room for Gurriel Jr, whose brother played for him in Houston, seems more like a Cora trade. He won the power struggle with Bloom and came away from it with more influence over roster decisions. This feels like Cora exercising some of that new power.
If trading Alex Verdugo to a division rival for some low ceiling prospects really was a top priority for Breslow at the Winter Meetings given all the other holes on this team, that might be even worse.
I get what you are saying, but moving Verdugo goes beyond his clubhouse rift with Cora. He has one year left and doesn’t really provide a future with Sox. The Sox OF is a problem defensively, but replacing Verdugo with Rafaela seems like a lateral move, and worst. If Roman continues his meteoric ascension, he will be a fixture in the outfield very soon.Yes. This is Breslow allowing himself to be influenced by Cora, who almost certainly was behind all the “Verdugo needs to be traded” talk prior to this move. I had been hoping new leadership in the GM office might have put that to bed, but it seems like maybe the opposite has happened.
So yeah, this team has seemingly hurt their chances of competing next season because their much respected manager couldn’t get along with a guy who, from the sound of it, might have been late a couple of times (honestly, if there was that much more drama than that wouldn’t we have heard about it?).And they did this while helping their arch-rivals chances of bouncing back from a hugely disappointing 23’.
For Sox fans, the only good part of the 23’ season is that the Yanks also sucked. In response Breslow appears to be building ever more for some nebulous post-24’ future, while simultaneously contributing to the Yanks prospects of turning it around next year.
That is not what Red Sox fans were expecting after the firing of Bloom. Veterans for prospects trades are what Bloom was known for, and now the first two trades of the new guy is more of the same.
And the idea that a far more expensive Lourdes Gurriel is somehow a good solution to the hole Breslow just created is nonsense. To be clear, the Sox need two plus-fielders in the OF as their RF has always required the type of range normally only needed in center. Gurriel was an average LF in the past year, but has been subpar (in LF) for the rest of his career. He might have been a great fit had they decided to trade Duran for pitching and wanted to commit to Rafaela in center, as Gurriel is still probably a better fielder than Yoshida (who could DH), but he certainly can’t replace Dugie in Right.
I guess this means that they plan to stick with Duran in Center and move Rafaela to Right. But that would almost certainly mean another year of subpar OF defense as Duran/Gurriel is unlikely to be that much better than Duran/Yoshida, even if Rafaela can replicate Dugie’s stellar fielding from last year. Either way, it seems OF defense will not be Breslow’s focus.
Obviously, it’s unfair to judge his broader off-season plan so early in the off-season, but this is definitely not the start I was hoping for…
Did I miss something? Has the FA/trade season been officially declared closed?Yes. This is Breslow allowing himself to be influenced by Cora, who almost certainly was behind all the “Verdugo needs to be traded” talk prior to this move. I had been hoping new leadership in the GM office might have put that to bed, but it seems like maybe the opposite has happened.
So yeah, this team has seemingly hurt their chances of competing next season because their much respected manager couldn’t get along with a guy who, from the sound of it, might have been late a couple of times (honestly, if there was that much more drama than that wouldn’t we have heard about it?).And they did this while helping their arch-rivals chances of bouncing back from a hugely disappointing 23’.
For Sox fans, the only good part of the 23’ season is that the Yanks also sucked. In response Breslow appears to be building ever more for some nebulous post-24’ future, while simultaneously contributing to the Yanks prospects of turning it around next year.
That is not what Red Sox fans were expecting after the firing of Bloom. Veterans for prospects trades are what Bloom was known for, and now the first two trades of the new guy is more of the same.
And the idea that a far more expensive Lourdes Gurriel is somehow a good solution to the hole Breslow just created is nonsense. To be clear, the Sox need two plus-fielders in the OF as their RF has always required the type of range normally only needed in center. Gurriel was an average LF in the past year, but has been subpar (in LF) for the rest of his career. He might have been a great fit had they decided to trade Duran for pitching and wanted to commit to Rafaela in center, as Gurriel is still probably a better fielder than Yoshida (who could DH), but he certainly can’t replace Dugie in Right.
I guess this means that they plan to stick with Duran in Center and move Rafaela to Right. But that would almost certainly mean another year of subpar OF defense as Duran/Gurriel is unlikely to be that much better than Duran/Yoshida, even if Rafaela can replicate Dugie’s stellar fielding from last year. Either way, it seems OF defense will not be Breslow’s focus.
Obviously, it’s unfair to judge his broader off-season plan so early in the off-season, but this is definitely not the start I was hoping for…
I get that but I what I don’t get is the priorities.I get what you are saying, but moving Verdugo goes beyond his clubhouse riff with Cora. He has one year left and doesn’t really provide a future with Sox. The Sox OF is a problem defensively, but replacing Verdugo with Rafaela seems like a lateral move, and worst. If Roman continues his meteoric ascension, he will be a fixture in the outfield very soon.
I think you at least missed my last sentence..Did I miss something? Has the FA/trade season been officially declared closed?
Didn't miss it or the similar qualifier on your follow up angst filled post. Go easy on yourself, the rollercoater's barely begun.I think you at least missed my last sentence..
Who gives a shit how the off-season starts? Sometimes remodeling has to begin with a bit of demolition. It might be ugly and messy but the final product is what matters, not how it gets there.I think you at least missed my last sentence..
It just so happened to be the first move, so it’s magnified. Let’s see what happens over the next few weeks before we question their priorities. So far, Breslow is living up to the idea of being bold. Hopefully, in a good way.I get that but I what I don’t get is the priorities.
They fired Bloom because- seemingly- they wanted a change of direction. It was assumed that meant more of a “win now” focus. Trading Verdugo for prospects does not improve this team next season, so in that sense it feels like more of the same.
And it’s not that I’m opposed to building through the development of prospects, I just think if that was the plan they probably didn’t need to fire Bloom.
Some weren't impressed with the way he acted.What do you mean not Gold Globe caliber? He was a finalist for it last year.
I may have misrepresented myself. I’m not in panic at all, I just don’t think they’re setup to win next year. I think building from the bottom up is the top component of making a team who competes annually. Looking at who is available out there, other than the very top end of the market, there isn’t many clear cut ways to build a World Series contender starting next year.
Other than Ohtani and two of the Japanese transfer the offseason market is bare of the kind of impact players that this team needs to be a real preseason contender to win a title next year.
We have a team with a lot of the pieces moving that could build us into the Braves model rather than the Mets model. And even if we wanted the Mets model there isn’t much out there to buy. We need starting pitching. We need need two pitchers to absolutely anchor the staff and another two spots to eat up innings. Who can do that on the staff now? I feel good about Bello but even he comes with uncertainty. Houck has the best pure stuff this side of Sale but it just hasn’t clicked consistently. Sale is made up of skill, glass and bad luck. Pivetta and Crawford aren’t sure things. We have little top end help coming up.
Without SP we are rearranging chairs, so if we are rearranging chairs then why not make one to give us a bit more fiscal flexibility long term, and a few more lottery tickets on the cost controlled pitching side.
Every perennial contender needs a healthy pipeline of talent coming in to make the machine continue to work. Those six year of cost control are a necessity. It’s just how the market works. Verdugo is (was) my favorite personality on the team but skill-wise and position-wise with one year left on his contract his skills were the most replaceable by another cog in the system.
Who gives a shit how the off-season starts? Sometimes remodeling has to begin with a bit of demolition. It might be ugly and messy but the final product is what matters, not how it gets there.
I think this hysterically sums it up pretty well. The offseason has barely started, I understand the reactionary posts but let's see what the Red Sox still have up their sleeves. Do they need a big splash this offseason? I'd like to see it, but as many have pointed out, they have a lot of work to do to become legitimate WS contenders. If they don't land a Yamamoto/Ohtani/Soto, I think they can still shore up some spots while looking towards the future. I personally feel that 2025 is the start of their window, so I'd like them to have their eye on that. In Craig We Trust?Chaim Bloom: “Alex, hey, it’s Bloomy calling. Yeah, I know, I know. Water under the bridge, man. No worries. Look, I have an idea.”
Alex Cora: “Yeah? What’s the idea?”
CB: “You’re pissed they didn’t move you into the front office, and hired this clown with no track record instead. I’m pissed they forced me to rebuild on the cheap then threw me under the bus when the Average Fan got pissed. I have a plan to pay all these motherfuckers back in one move!”
AC: “Yes! Tell me your plan!”
CB: “If there’s one thing I know how to do, it’s completely screw the Red Sox by making catastrophic trades where I give up great talent for a bunch of another team’s crap prospects. And if there’s one thing you know how to do, it’s bitch and moan until you get what you want. Together we are amazing at infuriating the Average Fan.”
AC: “That’s true.”
CB: “OK, so with my intimate understanding of the Sox system, I’ve run a few calculations and determined that the worst possible deal the Red Sox can make right now is trade Alex Verdugo to the Yankees for a pile of middling prospects. The Average Fan is going to HATE that fucking deal because Verdugo is an inexpensive all star, the prospects all suck, and the new guy has demonstrated no ability to work with pitchers. Plus, you hate Verdugo, so you get rid of a total headache.”
AC: “OK I see where you’re going here but there’s one big problem. The new guy LOVES Verdugo. He’s an all star and he’s cheap. He’s never going to agree to a deal like that.”
CB: “Ahhhh, now here’s where the real genius of my plan comes in. He’s new, kind of meek, easy to push around, just like I was. So you pitch a fucking fit with this guy. You cajole, and twist his arm. You convince him that this is the right move. He wants to be liked, so he’s gonna go along with it, trust me. He’s going to trade Alex Verdugo for three bullshit prospects And that is going to PISS OFF the Average Fan. It will ruin the entire season, and doom him by extension.“
AC: “But Bloomy, it’s only Dec 6. The off-season has barely started. How could getting him to make this horrific, brain-dead trade possibly doom the entire season?”
CB: “Have you met the Average Fan?”
A pitcher showing this sort of growth and success in AA just two years after being drafted looks to be the type of player that this team needs to be bringing into the organization. In a vacuum, I can understand some of the angst for the temporary defensive setback to the outfield, but IMO looking at this in a vacuum at this juncture is incredibly short sighted. As for some of the coments about trading with the MFY and them potentially flipping Dugie for Soto...get over it. New York has a good amount of talent in it's farm system. In this day and age why would any team want to void themselves of the opportunity to be a trade partner with any team that can potentially help supply you with exactly the type of players that you're looking for? Why limit yourself in that way? Just because they are the MFY?Here is the breakdown for MLB.com in the summary of the minor league award winners. Is Fitts a change up guy primarily?
Pitcher of the Year: Richard Fitts, Somerset (NYY)
The Yankees sixth-round pick in the 2021 Draft, Fitts rode his trademark changeup to new heights this summer at Double-A. Spurred by a sensational August, the 23-year-old Fitts went 11-5 with a 3.48 ERA in 27 starts, amassing a league-leading 163 strikeouts in 152 ⅔ innings. Fitts didn’t only give opposing hitters fits, he finished strong. He didn’t lose any of his final 15 starts or last eight decisions, and pitched to a 2.74 ERA over his final eight starts.
IIRC, Verdugo came to Boston with a very mid defensive reputation and only really flourished in RF over the last year. I haven't watched a whole bunch of Gurriel, but if he could play average RF the offense is a massive upgrade.And the idea that a far more expensive Lourdes Gurriel is somehow a good solution to the hole Breslow just created is nonsense. To be clear, the Sox need two plus-fielders in the OF as their RF has always required the type of range normally only needed in center. Gurriel was an average LF in the past year, but has been subpar (in LF) for the rest of his career. He might have been a great fit had they decided to trade Duran for pitching and wanted to commit to Rafaela in center, as Gurriel is still probably a better fielder than Yoshida (who could DH), but he certainly can’t replace Dugie in Right.
It appears that Breslow does have autonomy, but the question remains if he’s had the handcuffs removed to make an aggressive bid at Yamamoto and Montgomery. I’m hoping Red Sox brass realized the handcuff approach with Bloom was a mistake and that entrusting a new guy like Breslow might lead to a better chance of long-term sustainability.I do think there’s an interesting juxtaposition here in that Bloom was canned, likely in part because he often seemed hesitant to make a move, while Breslow’s first major deal is with the Yankees. This suggests to me that there will be a lot of moves to come and also that Breslow has some autonomy; is this a move the team would make early on the offseason if they were overly obsessed with fan reactions and winning the offseason? I’m not so sure.
Maybe there’s some symbolism in immediately dumping the key piece of the Betts deal, too. Moving on.
It's funny, I have an inordinate amount of memories of Verdugo preening and posing at home plate admiring a bomb, considering he only had 43 homers in 4 years here. It feels like only Manny can rival his ratio of home run posturing in team history.Verdugo had a 105 OPS+ in Boston. Never developed power despite playing here in his prime years. A historically terrible baserunner and an average defender at best (although 2023 was a good year for him defensively). And he continually butted heads with his manager. And he's going to be heading into free agency after 2024.
Trading him makes PERFECT sense. He's EXACTLY the sort of player you get rid of early enough to get a good return for. He's never going to be anything more than a league-average player.
Personally I'm glad he's gone. Hated watching him play. Perhaps the worst baseball instincts I've seen around these parts since Steve Lyons.
HR preening doesn't bother me at all, if you hit one then by all means admire it.It's funny, I have an inordinate amount of memories of Verdugo preening and posing at home plate admiring a bomb, considering he only had 43 homers in 4 years here. It feels like only Manny can rival his ratio of home run posturing in team history.
+1Verdugo had a 105 OPS+ in Boston. Never developed power despite playing here in his prime years. A historically terrible baserunner and an average defender at best (although 2023 was a good year for him defensively). And he continually butted heads with his manager. And he's going to be heading into free agency after 2024.
Trading him makes PERFECT sense. He's EXACTLY the sort of player you get rid of early enough to get a good return for. He's never going to be anything more than a league-average player.
Personally I'm glad he's gone. Hated watching him play. Perhaps the worst baseball instincts I've seen around these parts since Steve Lyons.
Charisma doesn't matter. only winning does. Once, the Sox tried building a team with popular players, so they signed Pablo Sandoval and Carl Crawford.Public perception of this move is going to be terrible. For all his limitations as a player, Verdugo's personality connected with the fans. About half of the yellow jerseys you see in the stands have his number on them. I get that popularity isn't a primary concern for building a team, but you're still selling entertainment and trying to create emotional connections for the fans. Another big charisma guy who can play would be a nice acquisition this offseason.
If we sign Yamamoto, I don’t care if he’s a quiet guy that isn’t in front of the camera. I care about building a team that is good. Now if we don’t acquire anyone that upgrades the major league roster, then I’ll be unhappy.Public perception of this move is going to be terrible. For all his limitations as a player, Verdugo's personality connected with the fans. About half of the yellow jerseys you see in the stands have his number on them. I get that popularity isn't a primary concern for building a team, but you're still selling entertainment and trying to create emotional connections for the fans. Another big charisma guy who can play would be a nice acquisition this offseason.
I never hated Verdugo, but to me he was on the level of Benintendi—seemingly a lot of hype and talent but his ceiling was never going to be that high, so he had this aura of disappointment around him that might not have been his fault. The circumstances of how he was acquired might have played into that. I think the expectation was that he would develop more power and become something like prime-year Trot Nixon, but he just never had that built into him. He was just never bad enough to sink you, at least while you didn’t have better options on hand.Verdugo's problem was that he didn't do anything well. His BA was meh, his SLG was meh, his OBP was meh. His power was poor. His defense was meh until last year. His baserunning was an abomination in the sight of the Lord. And his professionalism and attitude were bad given the conflicts with his manager.
He played hard and seemed to care about winning. He was pretty durable. He had a couple of big hits in the 2021 postseason. That's just about all of his positives.
How's that working for the Rays?Charisma doesn't matter. only winning does. Once, the Sox tried building a team with popular players, so they signed Pablo Sandoval and Carl Crawford.
For all his supposed charisma, Verdugo was part of 3 losing seasons in his four years here. The only entertainment that matters is that from seeing a winning baseball team. If Breslow deviates from that for one instant then he's not long for this job.
They seem to be winning a shitton of games and their TV ratings are very high. And it looks like they'll be getting a new stadium in Tampa proper, so...pretty, pretty good?How's that working for the Rays?
Who knows what was going on here, tbh. Were I betting man, I'd imagine Shaughnessy is polishing the 'kick him on the way out of town' article as we speak. I don't think it was all that overblown in the 2023 MLB. Getting called out by your manger and benched is certainly a thing, and the potential for things to flare up again in his contract year was another great reason to send him packing because things could have gotten ugly.The Cora/Verdugo thing always felt overblown to me. Verdugo never struck me as a lazy player, if anything he was rather intense. But Cora seems to like making examples of certain guys and maybe he also thought there was a higher level there that wasn’t being unlocked.
I thought the big problem was the day Verdugo showed up late to the park and didn't have a valid reason. Cora was explicit in calling that perhaps the worst day of his managerial career, so something was bubbling from beneath for a long time before then.Who knows what was going on here, tbh. Were I betting man, I'd imagine Shaughnessy is polishing the 'kick him on the way out of town' article as we speak. I don't think it was all that overblown in the 2023 MLB. Getting called out by your manger and benched is certainly a thing, and the potential for things to flare up again in his contract year was another great reason to send him packing because things could have gotten ugly.
This just saved me a lot of typing. Very happy not to have to watch Verdugo wear the Sox uniform next year.Verdugo had a 105 OPS+ in Boston. Never developed power despite playing here in his prime years. A historically terrible baserunner and an average defender at best (although 2023 was a good year for him defensively). And he continually butted heads with his manager. And he's going to be heading into free agency after 2024.
Trading him makes PERFECT sense. He's EXACTLY the sort of player you get rid of early enough to get a good return for. He's never going to be anything more than a league-average player.
Personally I'm glad he's gone. Hated watching him play. Perhaps the worst baseball instincts I've seen around these parts since Steve Lyons.
You don't have to squint to see a "decent" player in Verdugo. Last 5 years bWAR: 3.0, 2.1, 2.3, 1.1, and 2.6. Career ops+ of 105. That's better than "decent". He will never be great (except in 2024 when he lights it up in the Bronx) and he will always seem like a disappointment due to being part of the Mookie trade. But he's more than a "decent" major league player. He's solid.This just saved me a lot of typing. Very happy not to have to watch Verdugo wear the Sox uniform next year.
If you squint, maybe there’s a decent player there, and he had a highlight or two, but I’d infinitely rather watch Rafaela or Abreu play baseball for the team I like, and I don’t see how either could be a huge downgrade in production.
Yes, and IIRC there was at least one other previous similar instance that was mostly kept in house.I thought the big problem was the day Verdugo showed up late to the park and didn't have a valid reason. Cora was explicit in calling that perhaps the worst day of his managerial career, so something was bubbling from beneath for a long time before then.
Why shouldn't there be discussion of the traded player's contentious relationship with his manager? Seems absolutely appropriate considering what went down last season.It would be really nice if the various opinions about Cora were in discussions about Cora, instead of having each move or issue become a proxy or Rorschach test about him. I suppose that’s never going to happen.
I agree with this take on Verdguo. I actually was hoping he'd be extended.You don't have to squint to see a "decent" player in Verdugo. Last 5 years bWAR: 3.0, 2.1, 2.3, 1.1, and 2.6. Career ops+ of 105. That's better than "decent". He will never be great (except in 2024 when he lights it up in the Bronx) and he will always seem like a disappointment due to being part of the Mookie trade. But he's more than a "decent" major league player. He's solid.
But with that said, I think Abreu can do just as well, if not better, for a lot less money.
I've slept on this trade and listened to Breslow's comments this morning. It struck me that, despite trading a good fielding right fielder, the Red Sox currently have the option to field a Duran - Rafaela - Abreu outfield. One could argue that is the most atheltic outfield in baseball with plus to plus plus defenders at all three spots.Hate this trade.
Bad enough to trade your only gold glove candidate from a 23’ team that was the worst defense in baseball, but even worse they traded him to the MFY, where he’s a perfect fit.
Honestly, what the fuck? Is Cora or Breslow this team’s GM? The Sox need to improve their friggin defense and I thought they were looking to compete next year. This hurts both those goals. And, ridiculously, it helps the friggin Yanks do both. Not a good start for Mr. Breslow, but I guess we’ll have to see what’s coming next…