New York Knicks (2) vs Indiana Pacers (6) - 2024 EC Second Round

lars10

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Thibs got to the ECF his first year as a HC. 2011 Bulls got to the ECF and even won game 1 against Miami before losing 4 straight.
You're correct, my bad. I missed that one when looking over his playoff results. Crazily..since then he's lost in the first round or semifinals if his team has got in.. Definitely seems like the kind of coach that wears out his welcome.
 

jon abbey

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You're correct, my bad. I missed that one when looking over his playoff results. Crazily..since then he's lost in the first round or semifinals if his team has got in.. Definitely seems like the kind of coach that wears out his welcome.
I was not a fan of his being hired in NY but he has been an amazing fit for this franchise and has a lot of his players playing the best ball of their careers. He is probably not a guy you want coaching your team if you have an MVP-level talent but his teams do not stop fighting. Talent-wise, this Knicks team is probably a player short even with a healthy Randle/DiVincenzo, Thibs is definitely getting the most out of them.
 

lars10

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I was not a fan of his being hired in NY but he has been an amazing fit for this franchise and has a lot of his players playing the best ball of their careers. He is probably not a guy you want coaching your team if you have an MVP-level talent but his teams do not stop fighting. Talent-wise, this Knicks team is probably a player short even with a healthy Randle/DiVincenzo, Thibs is definitely getting the most out of them.
I think it's a combo of the East being hobbled/weaker than it's been in a while..so many injuries to basically every team.. and him getting the most out of his team. I wouldn't be surprised if Indiana won a game in NYC, though this series really seems to swing on whether or not Halliburton shows up at all or his coach is able to figure out what else to do.
 

jon abbey

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I think it's a combo of the East being hobbled/weaker than it's been in a while..so many injuries to basically every team.. and him getting the most out of his team.
Not arguing this either, but last year they made it to the second round also, knocking out CLE. Anyway I don't really think we're disagreeing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Indiana won a game in NYC
I wouldn't either, but worth noting that NY won 2 of 3 in CLE in the 1st round last year and 2 of 3 in PHI this year.
 

jon abbey

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Brunson last 4 games:

43 PTS | 6 AST
41 PTS | 12 AST
40 PTS | 6 AST
47 PTS | 10 AST

The first player with four straight 40-point playoff games since MJ.

(Also he had 39 and 13 the game before that, his career high for playoff assists.)
 

lars10

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Not arguing this either, but last year they made it to the second round also, knocking out CLE. Anyway I don't really think we're disagreeing.

I wouldn't either, but worth noting that NY won 2 of 3 in CLE in the 1st round last year and 2 of 3 in PHI this year.
Yeah I think we're pretty much in agreement and I'm not trying to diminish what the Knicks have been able to do.. just saying it's hard to judge how good they are currently given the competition so far. Brunson has been very good.

edit: and Hart's hustle has been pretty great for you guys.
 

InstaFace

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“Even though it’s obvious he didn’t kick the ball, sorry, can’t question that call.”
"...bringing it up the floor. Oh, it's a whistle. And the Pacers are called for zargling, and it'll be Knicks' ball."
SVG: "Brian, what's zargling?"
"I'm not sure, that's just what I'm being told. But it's not a call that's reviewable, as it's something they just made up. Can't challenge that. And Rick Carlisle looks morose but stoic, as the clock winds down..."
 

OCST

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the kick ball was the truly attrocious call.
Also the overturn on the Brunson foul was criminal, but that won't be on the report.

I'm sure they will say the illegal screen was illegal, but anybody watching knows they never ever call that, nevermind to decide a playoff game.

Knicks played hard and tough, they also were massively benefited by a bunch of terrible officiating by Zarba's crew.
notwithstanding the results, just the sheer number of whistles and especially the delays for the replays slowed the game down, made it choppy, best thing that could have happened for the Knicks at that point in the action.

I’m not a Knicks fan but I live in NYC and I have to enjoy my hardcore Knicks friends getting excited. Even if their lack of depth limits their chances this is an easy team to like for a neutral - they go hard.
 

Jakarta

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"...bringing it up the floor. Oh, it's a whistle. And the Pacers are called for zargling, and it'll be Knicks' ball."
SVG: "Brian, what's zargling?"
"I'm not sure, that's just what I'm being told. But it's not a call that's reviewable, as it's something they just made up. Can't challenge that. And Rick Carlisle looks morose but stoic, as the clock winds down..."
Sorry the judges were looking for Zarba-ing. So close.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Just make obvious ones be called from NY. In the 20 seconds it takes to get everyone checked in and out of bounds sorted, half these obvious calls could just be radioed in
Agreed. The delay, and pretending the guys who made the initial call and are looking at a monitor surrounded by 18,000 partisans are best situated to make the review, are both silly.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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The Halliburton "kicked ball" seems like a perfect opportunity for the refs to huddle up and come to a consensus. The guy who made the call was clearly screened and I'd be surprised if the other guys didn't have a clearer view of the play. It's not like they don't do that fairly often too - tipped balls OB etc.
 

Remagellan

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Just make obvious ones be called from NY. In the 20 seconds it takes to get everyone checked in and out of bounds sorted, half these obvious calls could just be radioed in
Every sport should have a "sky judge" who reviews and corrects obvious errors in real-time. What's the argument against that? "We don't want to take the game out of the hands of the refs/umps/officials onsite?" Who gives a crap? Just get the calls right, because nobody gives a f*ck about game officials getting their feelings hurt. And if they'd be miffed by the institution of such a review system, they could protect themselves by just doing their jobs better.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah.. I wasn't trying to be a dick, but if the Knicks basically go to an 8 man rotation (in basically name only) they're going to be dog tired if they get to the finals.

And you're right about Hart.. his entire game really relies on his energy.

Edit: to their credit.. the Knicks seemed to gain energy as the game went on and maybe benefitted them by the end to come back from 10 down late.
Are they going to be dog tired or are they the better conditioned team in the 4Q of games? There is something to be said about Thibs approach at least in the short term with conditioning both in late game performance as well as lack of injuries relative to other teams who don’t have their players prepared for 40+ minutes every game.

The playoff schedule favors teams playing their best players heavy minutes if those players are conditioned to do so. Mazzulla speaks about this often but it’s difficult for him to implement in 20+ pt wins down the stretch of the season.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Are they going to be dog tired or are they the better conditioned team in the 4Q of games? There is something to be said about Thibs approach at least in the short term with conditioning both in late game performance as well as lack of injuries relative to other teams who don’t have their players prepared for 40+ minutes every game.

The playoff schedule favors teams playing their best players heavy minutes if those players are conditioned to do so. Mazzulla speaks about this often but it’s difficult for him to implement in 20+ pt wins down the stretch of the season.
When Hart was questioned on this last week, he said something along the lines of "other players are feeling exhausted going from 35 minutes to 41 per game. We're not." Again, who knows. But there are a lot of off days to give them rest.
 

jon abbey

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When Hart was questioned on this last week, he said something along the lines of "other players are feeling exhausted going from 35 minutes to 41 per game. We're not." Again, who knows. But there are a lot of off days to give them rest.
Not currently, the first 5 games of this series are every other day.
 

Jace II

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You would think if playing your best players 45+ minutes every night was truly a repeatable skill with no downsides, it would have been discovered it already by others (like the ferocious, tenacious Heat culture conditioning people).

Hart may be an odd outlier, but as a whole they are probably going to break down or at least start playing very tired at some point. Maybe it's not until next series if they get there.
 

HomeRunBaker

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When Hart was questioned on this last week, he said something along the lines of "other players are feeling exhausted going from 35 minutes to 41 per game. We're not." Again, who knows. But there are a lot of off days to give them rest.
It's only logical for younger athletes and those in their prime (you don't want to do this with older players or those with chronic injuries who will struggle with recovery). When runners train for marathons they ramp up their mileage during training and include one long run per week. The days prior to race they reduce/eliminate running to prepare for the big day. Thoroughbred racing, similar. This isn't any different than how a team should prepare for the NBA playoffs. You prepare by playing big minutes and the schedule grants you those rest/prep days without you having to alter your minutes/training....otherwise you are not conditioned properly and possibly at a disadvantage if you're competing against a better conditioned team.

Not currently, the first 5 games of this series are every other day.
They are accustomed to no days off and playing these minutes on B2B nights at times which is why they are so fresh WITH the day off. Each of his key players are playing the best basketball of their careers this year with this usage....it seems weird that Thibs is being criticized for getting the best out of them right now and I've never been a Thibs fan but it's working with this group.
 

Jace II

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I didn't see this one live. They really overturned this?

https://x.com/TomerAzarly/status/1787652062995755503
This is the best angle on it:

View: https://twitter.com/TomerAzarly/status/1787676407277179239


The ball contact is relatively clean but he clearly did bump Turner's body first, so yeah, pretty bad. The Knicks had a similar one go against them (ie a pretty standard / clear foul get overturned on replay) on a Lowry play in the 76ers series, and there were a couple other replay oddities. It's been weird.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I didn't see this one live. They really overturned this?

https://x.com/TomerAzarly/status/1787652062995755503
Yes. It was, live, a completely obvious foul and the replay only confirms how preposterous the overturn was.

No secret to most of us here, but the NBA has a major officiating issue. You can speculate on how much of that is the game is too fast, how much is the replay process creates a challenging situation for refs, how much is the (imo) unclear standards and interplay between Secaucus and game refs, but there's 1-2 replays a game where it is very clear they blew it. The NBA refs are the best in the world at what they do, and they are getting it wrong a bunch (perhaps unavoidable) but in a replay setting where it undercuts the game in several ways - flow-wise and credibility-wise

I historically have been a replay fan - and I'm coming to the conclsion the NBA would be better of with the imperfections of live calls than the only-slightly-more-accurate and disruptive reviews that occur today. They are getting things wrong either way, and I do think replay reduces the number of incorrect calls somewhat. But it also introduces more randomness (the absence of a credible review standard impacts this) and the delays and tactical use of challenges and such really impedes the players being at the center - which should always be the league's goal. As much as he likes the camera, no one is coming to the game to see Zarba look at a monitor.

if they don't change replay, they need to significantly clarify and standardize how they do reviews. Ones like the foul linked above are pretty clearly reviewed 'de novo' while many calls are reviewed with more deference to what's called live (imo, how it should be and is in the written rules).
 

lars10

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Yes. It was, live, a completely obvious foul and the replay only confirms how preposterous the overturn was.

No secret to most of us here, but the NBA has a major officiating issue. You can speculate on how much of that is the game is too fast, how much is the replay process creates a challenging situation for refs, how much is the (imo) unclear standards and interplay between Secaucus and game refs, but there's 1-2 replays a game where it is very clear they blew it. The NBA refs are the best in the world at what they do, and they are getting it wrong a bunch (perhaps unavoidable) but in a replay setting where it undercuts the game in several ways - flow-wise and credibility-wise

I historically have been a replay fan - and I'm coming to the conclsion the NBA would be better of with the imperfections of live calls than the only-slightly-more-accurate and disruptive reviews that occur today. They are getting things wrong either way, and I do think replay reduces the number of incorrect calls somewhat. But it also introduces more randomness (the absence of a credible review standard impacts this) and the delays and tactical use of challenges and such really impedes the players being at the center - which should always be the league's goal. As much as he likes the camera, no one is coming to the game to see Zarba look at a monitor.

if they don't change replay, they need to significantly clarify and standardize how they do reviews. Ones like the foul linked above are pretty clearly reviewed 'de novo' while many calls are reviewed with more deference to what's called live (imo, how it should be and is in the written rules).
The idea of ‘marginal contact’ has introduced a whole new criteria for what is and isn’t a foul and has given refs much more power as now every replay/call is subjective. Also every crew refs the game differently so there’s nowhere close to a set standard… everything is couched with an air of lawyerly professionalism but it all has a feel of Oz behind the curtain.. when you really look at it they’re just making it up every day.
 

Jace II

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The first of those 4 was disallowed because Haliburton stepped out of bounds, not because of a shot clock violation. Not sure that one applies.

I still think the most impactful factor was Carlisle not unleashing the McConnell monster. He was kind of demolishing the Knicks on both ends. He really can't play 25 minutes instead of 22?
 

PedroKsBambino

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Agreed - the two fixable (maybe) things are 1. clarifying the review standard and living to it and 2. clarifying or eliminating the fudge-word 'marginal' so that there's a chance of consistency
 

jon abbey

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The first of those 4 was disallowed because Haliburton stepped out of bounds, not because of a shot clock violation. Not sure that one applies.

I still think the most impactful factor was Carlisle not unleashing the McConnell monster. He was kind of demolishing the Knicks on both ends. He really can't play 25 minutes instead of 22?
Van Gundy was saying he looked exhausted even in the first half.
 

Jace II

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Van Gundy was saying he looked exhausted even in the first half.
Exhausted McConnell was an unstoppable force... in any case, he checked out with 9:25 left in the 4th quarter. He probably had 15-20 minutes of rest time by the 3 minute mark.

To me, putting him back in over Nembhard there, even if it's pushing things slightly, is an easy call
 

Jace II

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I’m not sure I’d cite Van gundy as an expert on anything at this point.
He did have a pretty forceful, entertaining rant about Divincenzo's acting job on the Turner moving screen at the end.
 

Murderer's Crow

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This is the best angle on it:

View: https://twitter.com/TomerAzarly/status/1787676407277179239


The ball contact is relatively clean but he clearly did bump Turner's body first, so yeah, pretty bad. The Knicks had a similar one go against them (ie a pretty standard / clear foul get overturned on replay) on a Lowry play in the 76ers series, and there were a couple other replay oddities. It's been weird.
Of course, the play literally right before this one by like 30 seconds on Hartenstein was a bullshit call that the Knicks didn't challenge but should have. It was a terrible ref night, period. It absolutely favored the Knicks and there's no question but there was just junk the whole game.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's only logical for younger athletes and those in their prime (you don't want to do this with older players or those with chronic injuries who will struggle with recovery). When runners train for marathons they ramp up their mileage during training and include one long run per week. The days prior to race they reduce/eliminate running to prepare for the big day. Thoroughbred racing, similar. This isn't any different than how a team should prepare for the NBA playoffs. You prepare by playing big minutes and the schedule grants you those rest/prep days without you having to alter your minutes/training....otherwise you are not conditioned properly and possibly at a disadvantage if you're competing against a better conditioned team.


They are accustomed to no days off and playing these minutes on B2B nights at times which is why they are so fresh WITH the day off. Each of his key players are playing the best basketball of their careers this year with this usage....it seems weird that Thibs is being criticized for getting the best out of them right now and I've never been a Thibs fan but it's working with this group.
Just from the marathon perspective, what I've heard is that people should do a 20 miler two or three weeks prior to the race and then basically shorter runs until the week of the marathon, at which point the training tapers. They don't say run 20 miles every other day to perform the best on race day. See, e.g., https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/marathon/a42185542/marathon-first-time/ (which actually says, "Running over three hours for a training run has been shown to have a point of diminishing returns,’ says Roberta Groner, a coach for Central Park TrackClub in New York and a pro marathoner. ")

But at the end of the day (no pun intended), the way Thibs is playing his guys is the way the NBA used to be. Run guys out there 40+ minutes game after game. In the short run - over one playoffs - I can't see it being a detriment.

The real issue is that guys who keep doing this game after game don't let their bodies heal up and I would surmise for many players, it very well could impact their longevity.

There are a lot of super smart people doing nothing but trying to figure out optimal ways of training and preparing to get max performance on game day across all of the major professional sports. There's a reason why Thibs is an outlier on how he handles his players. Maybe it'll work in the short-term but it seems sketchy to me.

(This debate reminds me of the debate as to whether Dusty Baker ruins pitching arms by overuse. View: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/367793-got-young-pitching-keep-it-away-from-dusty-baker
).
 

Auger34

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Yes. It was, live, a completely obvious foul and the replay only confirms how preposterous the overturn was.

No secret to most of us here, but the NBA has a major officiating issue. You can speculate on how much of that is the game is too fast, how much is the replay process creates a challenging situation for refs, how much is the (imo) unclear standards and interplay between Secaucus and game refs, but there's 1-2 replays a game where it is very clear they blew it. The NBA refs are the best in the world at what they do, and they are getting it wrong a bunch (perhaps unavoidable) but in a replay setting where it undercuts the game in several ways - flow-wise and credibility-wise

I historically have been a replay fan - and I'm coming to the conclsion the NBA would be better of with the imperfections of live calls than the only-slightly-more-accurate and disruptive reviews that occur today. They are getting things wrong either way, and I do think replay reduces the number of incorrect calls somewhat. But it also introduces more randomness (the absence of a credible review standard impacts this) and the delays and tactical use of challenges and such really impedes the players being at the center - which should always be the league's goal. As much as he likes the camera, no one is coming to the game to see Zarba look at a monitor.

if they don't change replay, they need to significantly clarify and standardize how they do reviews. Ones like the foul linked above are pretty clearly reviewed 'de novo' while many calls are reviewed with more deference to what's called live (imo, how it should be and is in the written rules).
It's really bad.

I mean these games should be reffed by the cream of the crop...and this game the crew cheif was Zach Zarba and Tyler Ford was involved. The next game the crew chief was Marc Davis.

Both of the games were horrifically officiated and the worst part was that they were both reffed in a completely different way. Just no consistency quarter to quarter, let alone game to game.

I don't know how they fix it but I refuse to believe that Marc fucking Davis is one of the best officials we have
 

HomeRunBaker

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Just from the marathon perspective, what I've heard is that people should do a 20 miler two or three weeks prior to the race and then basically shorter runs until the week of the marathon, at which point the training tapers. They don't say run 20 miles every other day to perform the best on race day. See, e.g., https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/marathon/a42185542/marathon-first-time/ (which actually says, "Running over three hours for a training run has been shown to have a point of diminishing returns,’ says Roberta Groner, a coach for Central Park TrackClub in New York and a pro marathoner. ")
This is what I said. You train by doing. Then you recover to do again. The few days prior to a marathon is the equiavalent of the day off for an NBA player whose body is accustomed to playing basketball every day.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This is what I said. You train by doing. Then you recover to do again. The few days prior to a marathon is the equiavalent of the day off for an NBA player whose body is accustomed to playing basketball every day.
Just to clarify, most people do not train for marathons by doing a 20+ mile run every week for weeks on end. Mostly because running a marathon is so hard on one's body, one would never make it to the starting line if they did.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Just to clarify, most people do not train for marathons by doing a 20+ mile run every week for weeks on end. Mostly because running a marathon is so hard on one's body, one would never make it to the starting line if they did.
I’ve trained for halves when I was younger. My example wasn’t meant to spell out an exact training regimen. A marathon runner is going to ramp up to 80-100 miles a week, kinda like the Knicks post-ASB, then rest (kinda like time off prior to playoffs, series and each game), then be in peak condition for the event, like the Knicks are, while competing against opponents who have not trained at this level. Yes it’s an advantage as we saw last night in the 2H. As we’ve seen all playoffs for a team without elite talent after Brunson.
 

the moops

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This series will definitely not bring us the best quality hoops for the playoffs. However, as a television show, it is incredible. If the goal is to get people talking about the product, they have achieved their goal and then some. My counting with my fingers has roughly 81% of posts talking about the officiating. Seven pages from one game log not played by the C's in a second round matchup? That is like some Caitlin Clark level chicanery.
 

tims4wins

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This series will definitely not bring us the best quality hoops for the playoffs. However, as a television show, it is incredible. If the goal is to get people talking about the product, they have achieved their goal and then some. My counting with my fingers has roughly 81% of posts talking about the officiating. Seven pages from one game log not played by the C's in a second round matchup? That is like some Caitlin Clark level chicanery.
On a night of a Bruins round 2 game no less.
 

Jace II

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Looks from this replay that the call was shot clock violation, called by sideline official. Guy under the basket doesn't signal an out of bounds

https://nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=30&GameID=0042300211&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=MISS Siakam 26' 3PT Jump Shot
Interesting, I recalled it being out of bounds (maybe they changed their rationale? the play-by-play shows no shot clock violation then), but... he WAS out of bounds, potentially 2x. Hard to view disallowing that basket as the wrong call. It was also 3 minutes into the game, obviously.

The Pacers certainly had higher leverage ones go against them late, but there were some both ways. I'd be super upset if I were a Pacers fan, but I think almost solely on the completely unnecessary Turner moving screen call. That's just submarining the last possession on a technicality at best.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This series will definitely not bring us the best quality hoops for the playoffs. However, as a television show, it is incredible. If the goal is to get people talking about the product, they have achieved their goal and then some. My counting with my fingers has roughly 81% of posts talking about the officiating. Seven pages from one game log not played by the C's in a second round matchup? That is like some Caitlin Clark level chicanery.
Both parts of that fair - if "all coverage is good coverage" the NBA is benefitting from the officating stuff.

And, from an entertainment/credibilty perspective it's really problematic that discussion among the pretty serious fans here is 4x officiating to 1x jalen brunson is amazing
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I’ve trained for halves when I was younger. My example wasn’t meant to spell out an exact training regimen. A marathon runner is going to ramp up to 80-100 miles a week, kinda like the Knicks post-ASB, then rest (kinda like time off prior to playoffs, series and each game), then be in peak condition for the event, like the Knicks are, while competing against opponents who have not trained at this level. Yes it’s an advantage as we saw last night in the 2H. As we’ve seen all playoffs for a team without elite talent after Brunson.
Things have changed since we were young. :)

Marathoners may run a lot of miles per week while training but the latest research recommends that a lot of that trainng being done at light intensity (here's a longer article that discusses best training practices based on recent research).

But more to the point, there are studies that showed that additional minutes played may lead to a greater risk of injury. See, for instance, this article ("recent literature has suggested that primary risk factors for season-ending injuries are minutes played per game and later season games") and this article ("The most significant risk factor associated with injury was minutes per game").

I think most professional sports team are in the camp that any rest they can give their players will help keep their bodies in the best shape possible. Thibs obviously believes something else but I don't think the research supports it. YMMV.
 

Murderer's Crow

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This is part of why so many Knicks fans love the Nova guys.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Asked Josh Hart if anything makes him tired:<br><br>&quot;My wife arguing with me,&quot; he said. &quot;That makes me extremely tired.&quot;</p>&mdash; Fred Katz (@FredKatz) <a href="View: https://twitter.com/FredKatz/status/1787690764522213773?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
">May 7, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>








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Asked Josh Hart if anything makes him tired: "My wife arguing with me," he said. "That makes me extremely tired."
 

snowmanny

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I know that it might as well have been the Middle Ages ,and all those guys would be G-Leaguers today, and defense was a lot less exertional, but I have got to wonder what Clyde Frazier thinks of all this tired talk from his front row seat in his So Fly suit. Rested 10 minutes total in the last playoff series that resulted in a NYK title and though my recollection is pretty dim I believe he looked pretty damn good.

I also believe that was the last time I rooted for the Knicks.
 

jon abbey

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I know that it might as well have been the Middle Ages ,and all those guys would be G-Leaguers today, and defense was a lot less exertional, but I have got to wonder what Clyde Frazier thinks of all this tired talk from his front row seat in his So Fly suit. Rested 10 minutes total in the last playoff series that resulted in a NYK title and though my recollection is pretty dim I believe he looked pretty damn good.

I also believe that was the last time I rooted for the Knicks.
Clyde is NY's color guy for the majority of regular season games on MSG (his announcing is as high quality as his dressing, I am a huge huge fan), but he tends to not bring up his own playing experience by comparison unless he is pushed. There is a good interview with him here about these Knicks from a few weeks ago though:

https://nypost.com/2024/04/19/sports/clyde-frazier-dishes-on-knicks-2024-nba-playoffs-storylines/