National Celtics discourse

RorschachsMask

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So a few people have said they don’t want to see ESPN stuff in the series threads. I know that us simpletons are apparently more entertained by this (ridiculous comment) than what happens on the court, so I created a thread of people want to laugh at or vent about how this team is being covered.

Honestly, I love this. The Celtics are at their best when they’re aggressive and I love that our stars are getting consistent shade. This is a 64 win team that is 12-2 in the playoffs and should be hearing a ton of “you’re the clear favorite, don’t choke” type stuff.

Instead, people are basically underestimating and not appreciating just how good they are. I want this team angry.
Tatum is getting his name played with to an extent that’s hard to believe lol. Apparently, just today on espn: Tatum wasn’t happy enough about Jaylen winning ECFMVP, Tatum isn’t their most important player or a leader, and that he is a singular player, while Jaylen elevates his teammates.

View: https://twitter.com/alpacinogrunt/status/1795855700616155325
 

Auger34

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So a few people have said they don’t want to see ESPN stuff in the series threads. I know that us simpletons are apparently more entertained by this stuff than what happens on the court, so I created a thread of people want to laugh at or vent about how this team is being covered.



Tatum is getting his name played with to an extent that’s hard to believe lol. Apparently, just today on espn: Tatum wasn’t happy enough about Jaylen winning ECFMVP, Tatum isn’t their most important player or a leader, and that he is a singular player, while Jaylen elevates his teammates.

View: https://twitter.com/alpacinogrunt/status/1795855700616155325
What is he supposed to be doing other than smiling? Crying happy tears? Jumping up and down like Phil Mickelson after he won his first major?
 

lovegtm

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What is he supposed to be doing other than smiling? Crying happy tears? Jumping up and down like Phil Mickelson after he won his first major?
I'm starting to really hate-enjoy the levels of weird dumbness that the national discourse is hitting.
 

RorschachsMask

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I'm starting to really hate-enjoy the levels of weird dumbness that the national discourse is hitting.
I’ve never been a person to have any interest in any of this, never the type to post non nerd stuff on here. I haven’t watched ESPN or FS1 coverage of anything in years, just what I come across on Twitter.

But…this is so far over the top lol, that I’m kind of fascinated and have had to share.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Tatum is getting his name played with to an extent that’s hard to believe lol. Apparently, just today on espn: Tatum wasn’t happy enough about Jaylen winning ECFMVP, Tatum isn’t their most important player or a leader, and that he is a singular player, while Jaylen elevates his teammates.
Michael Felger said the exact same thing on 98.5 yesterday though he couched it as, "I'm not sure if I believe it, but I'm watching it." And then he and Mazz fell down a hole of how Tatum is going to dribble the ball into the ground, play 1-on-5, not pass to anyone to "prove" that he can win a championship by himself. And then Brown is going to get pissed and he'll do the same thing. And then they'll lose because they're not mature.

It was absolutely ridiculous.
 

Ed Hillel

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These networks have figured out that many sports fans, and perhaps particularly Boston sports fans, love to hate watch things. They do it because it works in getting more eyes on their product. I also find it enjoyably stupid at this point. Nick Wright and Skip are wonderful villains, tbh. Perk is just a fucking tryhard goof.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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The Celtics derangement is outpacing the Patriots, with the fact that they haven't even won a title yet! The Pats had to be 3 Lombardis deep before they got this level of coverage. But yeah it could just be that national sports media has devolved to such an extent even in the past 5-10 years. OTOH I don't remember people losing their minds like this over the Nuggets previously...
 

Auger34

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Michael Felger said the exact same thing on 98.5 yesterday though he couched it as, "I'm not sure if I believe it, but I'm watching it." And then he and Mazz fell down a hole of how Tatum is going to dribble the ball into the ground, play 1-on-5, not pass to anyone to "prove" that he can win a championship by himself. And then Brown is going to get pissed and he'll do the same thing. And then they'll lose because they're not mature.

It was absolutely ridiculous.
It's abundantly clear to anyone who watches any Celtics games that the Jays enjoy playing with each other. I really can't believe that it's still a narrative anywhere, let alone in fucking Boston
 

BigSoxFan

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It’s just weird. I wonder if this is a byproduct of Patriots hate spilling into basketball and not really about the Celtics themselves.

Objectively, the Celtics are a huge success story. Ainge executed a great trade and used that trade to build an incredible young foundation that he and now Brad have tinkered with to almost perfect. They’ve made a million good incremental moves and the stars aren’t jackasses. Stevens looks like a great guy. Mazzulla stepped into an impossible situation and has done a tremendous job in the aggregate.

What is there not to like? Meanwhile, Jalen Brunson has a nice 2 round run and everyone falls over themselves over him.

With that said, some of the criticisms we hear are legit until hopefully proven wrong in the next 2-3 weeks but the entire operation is just top notch. This is exactly the team that should be celebrated, not vilified.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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I've noticed this too.

Honestly, I wonder if it's just Boston Championship Resentment Syndrome built-up over the last 24 years.

Edit: already been said lol
 
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m0ckduck

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It’s just weird. I wonder if this is a byproduct of Patriots hate spilling into basketball and not really about the Celtics themselves.

Objectively, the Celtics are a huge success story. Ainge executed a great trade and used that trade to build an incredible young foundation that he and now Brad have tinkered with to almost perfect. They’ve made a million good incremental moves and the stars aren’t jackasses. Stevens looks like a great guy. Mazzulla stepped into an impossible situation and has done a tremendous job in the aggregate.

What is there not to like? Meanwhile, Jalen Brunson has a nice 2 round run and everyone falls over themselves over him.

With that said, some of the criticisms we hear are legit until hopefully proven wrong in the next 2-3 weeks but the entire operation is just top notch. This is exactly the team that should be celebrated, not vilified.
I was just going to write something like this and you did a much better job of articulating the bafflement.

Of course, on some level, the underlying driver is the need for media to generate takes, clicks, revenue, etc. But why so much take-mongering around the Celtics in particular rather than another team?

Possible candidates incude:
  1. National animus towards Boston sports
  2. Close-but-no-cigar trajectory of previous Celtics teams
  3. That they are elite as a team but don't have a consensus top 3 player, which seems to induce a weird resentment among the Starz/Pointz crowd
  4. Perception of the team as a finesse, front-running squad (based on high three point volume, gaudy win-loss record, etc)
  5. Unrealistic heightened expectations (if they lose any game ever, it's an indication of lack-of-fortitude).
  6. Maybe general Tatum dislike leading the pack? I don't at all get the national discourse around Tatum but there's something there.
Anything missing?
 

Kliq

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I was just going to write something like this and you did a much better job of articulating the bafflement.

Of course, on some level, the underlying driver is the need for media to generate takes, clicks, revenue, etc. But why so much take-mongering around the Celtics in particular rather than another team?

Possible candidates incude:
  1. National animus towards Boston sports
  2. Close-but-no-cigar trajectory of previous Celtics teams
  3. That they are elite as a team but don't have a consensus top 3 player, inducing a weird determination to discount among the Starz/Pointz crowd
  4. Perception of the team as a finesse, front-running squad (based on high three point volume, gaudy win-loss record, etc)
  5. Unrealistic heightened expectations (if they lose any game ever, it's an indication of lack-of-fortitude).
  6. Maybe general Tatum dislike leading the pack? I don't at all get the national discourse around Tatum but there's something there.
Anything missing?
Related, but older fans outside of Boston often grew up hating the Celtics. The Celtics haven't been a Pats-level dynasty in a while, but they certainly were in the past.
 

Auger34

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I was just going to write something like this and you did a much better job of articulating the bafflement.

Of course, on some level, the underlying driver is the need for media to generate takes, clicks, revenue, etc. But why so much take-mongering around the Celtics in particular rather than another team?

Possible candidates incude:
  1. National animus towards Boston sports
  2. Close-but-no-cigar trajectory of previous Celtics teams
  3. That they are elite as a team but don't have a consensus top 3 player, which seems to induce a weird resentment among the Starz/Pointz crowd
  4. Perception of the team as a finesse, front-running squad (based on high three point volume, gaudy win-loss record, etc)
  5. Unrealistic heightened expectations (if they lose any game ever, it's an indication of lack-of-fortitude).
  6. Maybe general Tatum dislike leading the pack? I don't at all get the national discourse around Tatum but there's something there.
Anything missing?
I think what @Ed Hillel said is a big part of it. These networks know that Boston is a passionate market and their fans will react strongly to this type of nonsense.
 

m0ckduck

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I think what @Ed Hillel said is a big part of it. These networks know that Boston is a passionate market and their fans will react strongly to this type of nonsense.
NBA media seems to revolve predominantly around NY and LA, both of who would absolutely hate Boston championships.
These are great points, and surely part of the picture.

But, devil's advocate: by this logic, any contending Boston team would be subjected to this level of skepticism and B.S. drivel. There does seem to be something about this specific Celtics team that inspires a whole lot of nonsense.
 

Auger34

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These are great points, and surely part of the picture.

But, devil's advocate: by this logic, any contending Boston team would be subjected to this level of skepticism and B.S. drivel. There does seem to be something specific about this Celtics team that inspires a whole lot of nonsense.
I mean, the Patriots definitely are when they are contending. I would say that the NBA is more popular than the MLB and NHL so there's more drivel and B.S. around it by nature
 

Mystic Merlin

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These are great points, and surely part of the picture.

But, devil's advocate: by this logic, any contending Boston team would be subjected to this level of skepticism and B.S. drivel. There does seem to be something about this specifics Celtics team that inspires a whole lot of nonsense.
I also think the NBA media ecosphere/very online fans are inordinately focused on what I’d call the soap opera of NBA happenings, they may not even watch the games but they follow roster moves, watch highlights, and consume the ever burgeoning mass of people commenting on the sport as well as their own and others’ narratives. This exists in the NFL, too, but I don’t think it’s anywhere near as big a phenomenon in the NHL and MLB spheres.
 

lovegtm

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....
Possible candidates include:

3. That they are elite as a team but don't have a consensus top 3 player, which seems to induce a weird resentment among the Starz/Pointz crowd
This one seems real to me, and it's really really bizarre. Did the 2012-14 Spurs get this kind of hate? They played a somewhat more beautiful brand of basketball (although I think there's a very real beauty to what the Cs do offensively), but I don't think that's nearly enough to account for the hate.

Maybe it's an anger that Cs fans seem to be overrating their players who aren't Starz? Idk, man.
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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NBA media seems to revolve predominantly around NY and LA, both of who would absolutely hate Boston championships.
Very true. Bob Ryan and Jackie MacMullan are happy to just be guests on PTI or Around the Horn as opposed to driving the news cycle nowadays, they were two personalities who could have added some balance to the discourse. It's ok to say this team hasn't proven it yet and to ask if they are a paper tiger, however just making shit up out of whole cloth is different.
 

m0ckduck

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This one seems real to me, and it's really really bizarre. Did the 2012-14 Spurs get this kind of hate? They played a somewhat more beautiful brand of basketball (although I think there's a very real beauty to what the Cs do offensively), but I don't think that's nearly enough to account for the hate.

Maybe it's an anger that Cs fans seem to be overrating their players who aren't Starz? Idk, man.
Agreed. Among the candidates I mentioned, #3 (lack of a top-3 player) and #6 (strange, free-floating Tatum dislike) stand out to me, and are obviously interconnected. I still remember when the 2004 Pistons knocked off the Lakers, there was a line of media resistance along the lines of, "how dare these randos unseat Kobe and Shaq!"

I think in particular the refusal the Jays to establish an overt hierarchy (in which Tatum is unquestionably BATMAN and Brown is ROBIN, or whatever) hurts the collective hive-mind of basketball analysis, and so they punish the cognitive dissonance that this induces with skeptical takes.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Agreed. Among the candidates I mentioned, #3 (lack of a top-3 player) and #6 (strange, free-floating Tatum dislike) stand out to me, and are obviously interconnected. I still remember when the 2004 Pistons knocked off the Lakers, there was a line of media resistance along the lines of, "how dare these randos unseat Kobe and Shaq!"

I think in particular the refusal the Jays to establish an overt hierarchy (in which Tatum is unquestionably BATMAN and Brown is ROBIN, or whatever) hurts the collective hive-mind of basketball analysis, and so they punish the cognitive dissonance that this induces with skeptical takes.
And they aren’t the Lakers, imagine if they had actual strife between the Jays like Kobe/Shaq did in the early ‘00s?
 

radsoxfan

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I have to assume the reason for a lot of these national opinions is multifactorial, but let’s remember some of these national guys are just really bad at their job.

I saw some recent clip with Richard Jefferson talking about how the Mavs would have the best 2 players and the Celtics would have the next 5. That’s insane enough (Kyrie certainly isn’t better than Tatum), but then Channing Frye tried to claim Lively is in the mix. Someone can probably pull the clip, but it was nonsensical. It didn’t seem anti Boston as much as just someone who is completely clueless.

There might be some psychological explanation for the anti-Boston tenor…. But some of these guys are also just really dumb.
 
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JCizzle

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So a few people have said they don’t want to see ESPN stuff in the series threads. I know that us simpletons are apparently more entertained by this (ridiculous comment) than what happens on the court, so I created a thread of people want to laugh at or vent about how this team is being covered.



Tatum is getting his name played with to an extent that’s hard to believe lol. Apparently, just today on espn: Tatum wasn’t happy enough about Jaylen winning ECFMVP, Tatum isn’t their most important player or a leader, and that he is a singular player, while Jaylen elevates his teammates.

View: https://twitter.com/alpacinogrunt/status/1795855700616155325
Oh my God. I can’t believe this was actually aired :notworthy:
 

Ivo Rentoren

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Media channels are like any other business: Their main (only, in most cases) goal is to sell products and services, in this case advertising space. The veracity of the content matters not, as long as it maximizes viewer count and clicks. And as Lisa Simpson said, you'll never go broke appealing to the lowest common denominator. Personally, I stick to watching the games and reading this forum. The rest is noise and to be avoided. And yes, there is definitely some Boston title envy involved here.
 

lovegtm

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Agreed. Among the candidates I mentioned, #3 (lack of a top-3 player) and #6 (strange, free-floating Tatum dislike) stand out to me, and are obviously interconnected. I still remember when the 2004 Pistons knocked off the Lakers, there was a line of media resistance along the lines of, "how dare these randos unseat Kobe and Shaq!"

I think in particular the refusal the Jays to establish an overt hierarchy (in which Tatum is unquestionably BATMAN and Brown is ROBIN, or whatever) hurts the collective hive-mind of basketball analysis, and so they punish the cognitive dissonance that this induces with skeptical takes.
I'm only speaking about the more sophisticated media, but it might be that something of a consensus was developing around what indicators you can look at to analyze top basketball players, and the Cs somewhat break that.

There's this vibe that it's almost wrong that a team can have the best offense ever, while not having lead guys who are just blowing away the TS%+usage metrics.

So then people fall back on "oh, well they can't do it in crunchtime"....except then they have the audacity to go do it in crunchtime, all regular season (statistically) and all playoffs (statistically and narratively--thanks, Indiana!).

It feels vaguely similar to the late 90s/early 2000s, when there was an initial resistance from sophisticated baseball observers to look beyond OBP, because they had spent so much effort getting people to look at that, rather than batting average.
 

Marbleheader

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I think, nationally, people just don't like the Celtics franchise. This crap goes all the way back to Bird. The two largest media markets hate the Celtics with a passion, the pundits are pandering to them. If the Lakers drafted Tatum, he'd be talked about in a far more positive manner. Probably obnoxiously so.
 

McBride11

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I think what @Ed Hillel said is a big part of it. These networks know that Boston is a passionate market and their fans will react strongly to this type of nonsense.
Like the Howard Stern story. People will hate listen longer than agreeing listen. Why Ordway had a top rated show for 10+ years.
 

Euclis20

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I think I've figured out the rules for discussing Boston's title chances:

1. The regular season results don't matter. 64 wins for Boston and an historically great net rating, 50 wins for Dallas and the 14th best net rating in the league, it just doesn't matter.
2. The Celtics/Mavs regular season matchups don't matter (I haven't seen them mentioned once, anywhere), Boston winning both matchups comfortably (one without KP) just doesn't matter.
3. This Boston team 100% has to own their prior playoff failures. Stuck in the mud 1v1 offense, crunch time issues, losing focus, home court lapses, etc. Those failures matter, and should be recognized.
4. This Boston team 100% does not get credit for any of their prior playoff success. Multiple deep runs with still developing stars, multiple wins over 50-win teams, excellent record when the opposing team clearly has a better #1 (6-2 vs Durant/Embiid/Giannis), excellent road record. Those successes don't matter now, and are not to be spoken of.
5. Boston's playoff performance has been bad/uneven/unimpressive, because (insert reason 100% beyond their control here). 12-2, best playoff net rating, best crunch time net rating, most of which is without their AS caliber starting center, is bad, just because.

It's ultimately pretty simple - Boston hasn't won a title yet despite coming reasonably close a bunch in the last 7 years (even if they definitely underachieved just once), and everyone is sick of being forced to talk about a team that hasn't won a title. There's probably some general Boston fatigue, but in general, we're many years removed from the Tatum/Brown duo being an up and coming fun combo, even if this is just their age 25 and 27 seasons. I think the extended break will eventually breed some reasonably sober predictions (most will pick Boston to win), but much of the ridiculousness will continue.

If Boston ends up winning, it's going go end up being incredibly obvious in hindsight. Individual players may never get their due credit, even if the team does. Whatever.
 

tims4wins

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I think I've figured out the rules for discussing Boston's title chances:

1. The regular season results don't matter. 64 wins for Boston and an historically great net rating, 50 wins for Dallas and the 14th best net rating in the league, it just doesn't matter.
2. The Celtics/Mavs regular season matchups don't matter (I haven't seen them mentioned once, anywhere), Boston winning both matchups comfortably (one without KP) just doesn't matter.
3. This Boston team 100% has to own their prior playoff failures. Stuck in the mud 1v1 offense, crunch time issues, losing focus, home court lapses, etc. Those failures matter, and should be recognized.
4. This Boston team 100% does not get credit for any of their prior playoff success. Multiple deep runs with still developing stars, multiple wins over 50-win teams, excellent record when the opposing team clearly has a better #1 (6-2 vs Durant/Embiid/Giannis), excellent road record. Those successes don't matter now, and are not to be spoken of.
5. Boston's playoff performance has been bad/uneven/unimpressive, because (insert reason 100% beyond their control here). 12-2, best playoff net rating, best crunch time net rating, most of which is without their AS caliber starting center, is bad, just because.

It's ultimately pretty simple - Boston hasn't won a title yet despite coming reasonably close a bunch in the last 7 years (even if they definitely underachieved just once), and everyone is sick of being forced to talk about a team that hasn't won a title. There's probably some general Boston fatigue, but in general, we're many years removed from the Tatum/Brown duo being an up and coming fun combo, even if this is just their age 25 and 27 seasons. I think the extended break will eventually breed some reasonably sober predictions (most will pick Boston to win), but much of the ridiculousness will continue.

If Boston ends up winning, it's going go end up being incredibly obvious in hindsight. Individual players may never get their due credit, even if the team does. Whatever.
Bra fucking vo
 

bosockboy

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There isn’t enough legitimate content to fill hours of morning programming so they have to reach for horseshit like this. That’s a big part of it.

Also the Celtics=Duncan’s Spurs. They are more of a unit playing team basketball and it doesn’t sell.
 

GoJeff!

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It's win-win to bash Boston teams. Boston fans will hate watch, and fans of other teams will enjoy hearing something to throw back at the over-invested, obnoxious Boston fans.
 

lovegtm

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Also the Celtics=Duncan’s Spurs. They are more of a unit playing team basketball and it doesn’t sell.
I think there's an interesting "how people watch basketball" angle to take this too.

It's easier to watch games and have opinions about them when the offense is run in a legible way. Star sets up the chessboard, makes a move, defense reacts, star scores or passes to someone who does.

That's an oversimplification, but it also captures how a LOT of the best offenses/stars have looked in general, from MJ to Shaq to LeBron to Giannis to Jokic to Doncic. The peak Dubs did break this mold, but even there, people could watch and be like "oh, Steph ran around and either made a shot or opened up the floor insanely."

When a team is playing real team basketball on offense, it doesn't necessarily look like that, and it means people end up looking at the wrong things. This confusion seems to then translate to an active dislike of the team, for whatever reason.
 

BaseballJones

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With this team, the goalposts will always be moving. If they win it all this year, it'll be why didn't Tatum dominate a team with bad defense? If he does that, it'll be, yeah, but as talented as he is (and they are), they had an easy road. And it'll be, yeah, but so many teams have won it *once* - I'm not convinced that this wasn't a fluke unless they win it again.

And so on and so forth.
 

Batman Likes The Sox

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Besides just seeking clicks and views, the possibilities include but are not limited to:
-People think Boston wins too much in sports
-Celtics players supply no natural controversy so people make things up
-People think Tatum is not enough of an outspoken leader on the team
-People think Brown is too outspoken on non-basketball issues (I disagree)
-People like Udoka and don't like how that played out
-Boston is so dominant in terms of 2023-24 wins that people are just after the leader

This is not only a very talented Celtics team, it's also a very likable Celtics team. Very easy to root for.

Logical action:
Ignore
 

bankshot1

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I buy into the Celtic disrespect by media guys who saw their teams have heated/hated rivalries with the Celts.
Also there are few pundit points in fawning over a heavy favorite, but rather if you can point out their Achilles heel, win/win.
 

Jimbodandy

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The rest of the country is psychotic when it comes to Boston sports.
This.

I also think the NBA media ecosphere/very online fans are inordinately focused on what I’d call the soap opera of NBA happenings, they may not even watch the games but they follow roster moves, watch highlights, and consume the ever burgeoning mass of people commenting on the sport as well as their own and others’ narratives. This exists in the NFL, too, but I don’t think it’s anywhere near as big a phenomenon in the NHL and MLB spheres.
Also this.

I think, nationally, people just don't like the Celtics franchise. This crap goes all the way back to Bird. The two largest media markets hate the Celtics with a passion, the pundits are pandering to them. If the Lakers drafted Tatum, he'd be talked about in a far more positive manner. Probably obnoxiously so.
Omg, he'd be on all the Wheaties and shit. Tatum 24x7.

Best part is that they could very easily have drafted him. Convince Danny that they weren't moving off Lonzo at #2, and then just draft Tatum.
 

bsan34

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Besides just seeking clicks and views, the possibilities include but are not limited to:
-People think Boston wins too much in sports
-Celtics players supply no natural controversy so people make things up
-People think Tatum is not enough of an outspoken leader on the team
-People think Brown is too outspoken on non-basketball issues (I disagree)
-People like Udoka and don't like how that played out
-Boston is so dominant in terms of 2023-24 wins that people are just after the leader

This is not only a very talented Celtics team, it's also a very likable Celtics team. Very easy to root for.

Logical action:
Ignore
You forgot "Boston is racist".
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Boston fans feel easy to troll too. The local media all but wrote the playbook on how to successfully exploit that whole angle.