Leveraging the Knuckleballer

crystalline

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EricFeczko said:
I'll try, but I remember this part from a long time ago. Please correct me if I got something wrong.
It was part of my graduate school systems neuroscience class, taught by Tom Thatch (zl). One of our classes involved replicating the study and extending it by seeing if underhanded throws adapt (they don't in the same way, suggesting a different mechanism).
I also sort of overspoke. You can control most error-correction through top-down cortical mechanisms (including overhand throws), but such control may interfere with other mechanisms.
You can probably find it in a textbook, but it will take me some time to dig up the references, which is why I encouraged others to try the prism glasses.
Here's one, that shows how adaptation to overhand throws is limited and may relate to coordination between the eyes, trunk, and arm movements.
Here's one that shows how lesions to cerebellar areas containing climbing fibers impair error-correction for overhand throws.
Here's one that reviews the neuroscience literature on reaching movements and posterior parietal cortex.

There's an interesting discussion in the literature as to whether over-practiced overhand throwing (e.g. pitchers) leads to reduced sources of error for adaptation. If so, the timing of the release is the one most affected in over-practiced overhand throwing.

In any case, adaptation (i.e. compensation) to exogenous factors (e.g. wind) may be a different mental process for a knuckleball than a fastball.

EDITS for links, as I can find them.
The prism/adaptation experiments are interesting, and they show that training in one motion doesn't generalize to another.  That's generally true: working on a tennis swing doesn't help you swing a baseball bat, good sprinters are not good speedskaters, etc.  They don't indicate different parts of the brain are involved.  Lesion work is problematic by nature: the brain can adapt to damage (so fast inactivation methods are much better) and anyone with a brain lesion typically has other brain issues too.  So I'd be skeptical that different parts of the brain control knuckleball and fastball throwing, until there's data.  Not sure it's relevant to this thread anymore, so I'd take more discussion elsewhere or to PM.
 

HriniakPosterChild

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Harry Hooper said:
He also was a bit prickly about how he should be used and regarded, so he had motivation to minimize his "freakishness" in relation to other hurlers.
 
Right.
 
 
"Ever since I've been here, I've always been the type of player that I always have my spikes on, no matter what," Wakefield said yesterday afternoon at Fenway Park. "I've been used to pinch hit a couple of times. I've been used in emergency relief duty. I just feel like as an athlete, you've got to be prepared for anything that may be thrown at you at any particular point in the game."
 

jasvlm

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phenweigh said:
Takeaway from Edes: http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/42374/hanley-ramirez-hits-first-hr-of-spring
 
"The knuckleballer, Steven Wright, went four scoreless innings, giving up a couple hits and a couple walks. He is making a solid case for being the first pitcher the Sox summon from Pawtucket if they need a starter, although one scout in attendance Sunday said he thought Wright wasn't as effective after his first 35-40 pitches and might prove more useful in long relief. That’s not how the Sox see him at this stage; Wright said he just wants to help in any way he can."
 
As of right now, I think Wright is the #5 starter.  Kelly might well heal up quickly enough to take that slot when it does come up, but I think that if they had 5 straight games with no off days to start the season, Wright would start the 5th one.  No matter the health of either pitcher, neither figure to make the opening day 25.  If Kelly is ready, he'll start the first time the 5th starter is needed, but I think the Sox would be fine letting Wright take a few spins in that position to make sure Kelly is completely healthy.
 

AB in DC

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alwyn96 said:
 
Boom. The studies aren't in the hitters, but in the pitchers pitching after Wakefield and Dickey. Studies in the hitters might be more interesting, but looking at the pitchers does seem to indicate there may be something to the carryover effect.
 
I haven't seen this posted yet -- Tim Britton found similar carryover effects with Wright in the minors.
 

ALiveH

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so you want the knuckleballer to start one of the first games in a series, otherwise that effect is wasted.
 

Mike F

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ALiveH said:
so you want the knuckleballer to start one of the first games in a series, otherwise that effect is wasted.
Not necessarily. What's wrong with putting an opponent off for one more game?

IIRC the 71 White Sox ran Wilbur Wood out 35-36 times and after 7 innings could follow with either Gossage or Terry Forrester. That combo(s) could put an opponent in a slump for several days.
It was said that Hoyt Wilhelm could put a team in a slump for a week. Prolly literary license taken by announcers/writers of the day
 

jasvlm

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Has Farrell addressed the 5th starter role recently?  I know Kelly hasn't been getting work in the regular games, but he's got time if he's the 5th guy.  If he's not ready, do they carry only 4 starters and 8 pen arms to start the season, or use Wright as the long man in the pen as they prep him to be the 5th starter when the turn comes up?  It really does seem like that would be the best short term solution, at least until Johnson/ERod/Owens gets on a roll at Pawtucket and forces Farrell to consider an upgrade for one of the rotation slots at that point. 
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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jasvlm said:
Has Farrell addressed the 5th starter role recently?  I know Kelly hasn't been getting work in the regular games, but he's got time if he's the 5th guy.  If he's not ready, do they carry only 4 starters and 8 pen arms to start the season, or use Wright as the long man in the pen as they prep him to be the 5th starter when the turn comes up?  It really does seem like that would be the best short term solution, at least until Johnson/ERod/Owens gets on a roll at Pawtucket and forces Farrell to consider an upgrade for one of the rotation slots at that point. 
 
Read on twitter this morning (sorry, can't remember which beat guy it was) that Kelly is scheduled to pitch for the big league team on Wednesday.  If he makes that start, it's expected he opens the season on the active roster as the 5th starter.  Whether his turn is skipped the first time through or not is unclear.
 
If he can't make that start, he'll likely start the year on the DL and who knows how the rotation shakes out.  He's been pushed off at least twice from a starting assignment in favor of bullpens and minor league appearances, so it's not as though he's been shut down entirely at any point.  Gotta figure if they're considering him as likely for the Opening Day roster, they think he can handle at least 5 innings (or 75-90 pitches).
 

jasvlm

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
Read on twitter this morning (sorry, can't remember which beat guy it was) that Kelly is scheduled to pitch for the big league team on Wednesday.  If he makes that start, it's expected he opens the season on the active roster as the 5th starter.  Whether his turn is skipped the first time through or not is unclear.
 
If he can't make that start, he'll likely start the year on the DL and who knows how the rotation shakes out.  He's been pushed off at least twice from a starting assignment in favor of bullpens and minor league appearances, so it's not as though he's been shut down entirely at any point.  Gotta figure if they're considering him as likely for the Opening Day roster, they think he can handle at least 5 innings (or 75-90 pitches).
Good information.  Thanks for this.  I know it seems like Kelly will be able to gut through this recent concern, but I am truly hopeful that Wright gets a full chance to showcase his new found command.  He could well be a very impactful piece to their rotation, and they have room to improve in that area to be certain.  I guess it will depend on him getting an opportunity in the majors in some fashion, but he will be in a very strong rotation in Pawtucket otherwise: Johnson, Owens, ERod, Wright and perhaps the loser of the Barnes/Workman battle.  That pretty intriguing depth to have an hour away.
 

oumbi

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For those of you interested in other debates on knuckleballers (and if you reading this thread, then that may be a safe bet), here is a discussion thread from Sox Prospects talking about them and the pitch that they love. The thread starts a year ago, but page 4 has more recent discussions on Wright, Dickey, Wake, and knuckleballs. (And one very nice video.)
 
http://forum.soxprospects.com/thread/1953?page=4
 
(Note: Eric Van is one of the major posters.)
 

czar

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
Read on twitter this morning (sorry, can't remember which beat guy it was) that Kelly is scheduled to pitch for the big league team on Wednesday.  If he makes that start, it's expected he opens the season on the active roster as the 5th starter.  Whether his turn is skipped the first time through or not is unclear.
 
If he can't make that start, he'll likely start the year on the DL and who knows how the rotation shakes out.  He's been pushed off at least twice from a starting assignment in favor of bullpens and minor league appearances, so it's not as though he's been shut down entirely at any point.  Gotta figure if they're considering him as likely for the Opening Day roster, they think he can handle at least 5 innings (or 75-90 pitches).
The minor league thing is because if he has a setback in a minor league game they can retroactively set the DL clock. If he pitches in a major league game (even in ST) his clock would start that day if he had to go on the DL.
 

Corsi

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But now, a second scenario has emerged and is under consideration. The Sox are giving some thought to having knuckleballer Steven Wright break with the team and, instead of having Buchholz take his regular turn, have Wright take Kelly's start --- in one of the first two games in New York -- and allowing Buchholz to pitch with an extra day of rest.
 
Wright has had a strong spring, with a 1.32 ERA over five games -- three of them starts -- and the Sox like the idea of him providing a different look in the middle of a rotation.
 
The Sox have to balance the idea of having another lefty (Robbie Ross?) in the bullpen for two lefty-heavy lineups (Phillies, Yankees) against having Wright make a start.
 
http://www.csnne.com/boston-red-sox/wright-may-start-season-red-sox-rotation
 

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IIRC the 71 White Sox ran Wilbur Wood out 35-36 times, and after 7 innings could follow with either Gossage or Terry Forrester.
 
Wood had an insane season in 1971.  The White Sox methodology was to run him out there and leave him.  He started 42 games (and relieved in two), averaged 7.9 innings a start (22 complete games), and compiled a bWAR of 11.9.  If Wood was on his game, you didn't need either of those guys. 
 
Wood completed 20 or more games in each of 1971-74, but 1972 was the season you were probably remembering.  Wood started 49 games, generally going on 2 or 3 says rest, and averaged a comparatively measly 7.7 IP/start.  Forster pitched in 62 games and was the closer; Gossage pitched 80 IP in 36 games.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that Wood was a workhorse reliever for the White Sox (88, 76, and 77 games pitched in 1968, 1969, and 1970) before he became a full-time starter. In 1968 the White Sox also had Hoyt Wilhelm in the bullpen, and earlier in the 1960s, before Wood committed to the knuckleball, they had Wilhelm and Eddie Fisher in the pen.
 

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jasvlm said:
This would be a great idea, if for no other reason than to keep the kid in the majors-he's earned it.  An extra day of rest for a guy who hasn't exactly been the picture of health over his career might also make sense for his longevity this season.  Let Wright start!
 
Apparently, They shall.  This may have been posted elsewhere, but according to tonight's radio broadcast the Sox do plan to start Wright vs. the Yankees in the upcoming series.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Just saw that Kelly was announced as the starter for Saturday's game.  Not sure what that means for Wright now.  Sorry no link
 

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Trotsky said:
Just saw that Kelly was announced as the starter for Saturday's game.  Not sure what that means for Wright now.  Sorry no link
 
It means Wright is headed to Pawtucket, I'd imagine.  He made the roster to make the start on Saturday.  If he's not making the start, he should be in Pawtucket starting.
 

phenweigh

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If the Sox are fully confident that Kelly is ready to start Saturday, Wright will be available to pitch out of the pen tonight. 
 

jasvlm

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phenweigh said:
If the Sox are fully confident that Kelly is ready to start Saturday, Wright will be available to pitch out of the pen tonight. 
Too bad Wright isn't getting the nod.  Not sure why they'd push Kelly to start coming off an injury, but that is probably an indicator that he's truly ready.  I was really excited to see Wright take his shot at the Yankees.  There will come a time...
 

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jasvlm said:
Too bad Wright isn't getting the nod.  Not sure why they'd push Kelly to start coming off an injury, but that is probably an indicator that he's truly ready.  I was really excited to see Wright take his shot at the Yankees.  There will come a time...
His time has come!
 

phenweigh

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
prophetic.
 
I certainly wasn't predicting that it would happen.
 
Anyway, I'm glad the Sox won and Wright played a part.  It may be a while until he's needed again.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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It was kind of genius to have Wright available at the end and, as Michael Kay put it, "be available to go 15 or so". Gave Sox a real competitive advantage in the end game.

Yeah, I just quoted Michael Kay. Sorry.
 

jasvlm

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Mugsys Jock said:
It was kind of genius to have Wright available at the end and, as Michael Kay put it, "be available to go 15 or so". Gave Sox a real competitive advantage in the end game.

Yeah, I just quoted Michael Kay. Sorry.
Farrell played the reliever game as well as it could have been played given their assets.  Saving Wright for the end of the game was an advantage, and they were able to beat a reliever who had thrown 30 plus pitches just a day ago by scoring in 3 different innings against Rogers.  I would have preferred Wright to dominate the Yankees instead of coughing up 2 extra inning leads, but a win is a win, and I'm sure he'll be back to help out this season.  I still see better things ahead for Wright, and this is a nice way to get him in the win column.
 

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Lose Remerswaal said:
And directions down I-95 (if he needs them), and a request to take Tommy Layne with him and to lend his car to the most rested reliever on the 40 man roster in Pawtucket.
 
For the record, the Sox can't recall any relievers who were optioned this spring because they haven't passed the 10-day limit since the start of the season. The only way to get a fresh arm up would be to put an active 25-man player on the DL.
 

Harry Hooper

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HriniakPosterChild said:
 
McAdam covers my point:
 
Too often, though, Wakefield would relieve one day, fill in as a starter two days later and be back in the bullpen a day after that.
More than once -- and not without reason -- he proclaimed: "They're abusing my versatility.''
 
 
LINK
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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That should be fine. It's about time for Hellenic Flu to start making its rounds of the clubhouse, anyway.
 

jasvlm

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phenweigh said:
Given that Wright went 5 innings, Kelly should get the benefit of the starter following a knuckleballer the next day effect.
This is true to the degree that the Yankees have their regulars, who faced Wright, in the lineup.  Both sides seem to be resting large chunks of their starting players today, and wisely so.  It is in these types of circumstances that the Red Sox deep roster should provide an advantage.  We'll see.
 

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CaptainLaddie said:
I think he gets a Win and a "you did good, meat."
 
Absolutely.  If he had the same line starting, instead of in late relief, we'd be wanting him in the regular rotation.
 

AB in DC

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alwyn96 said:
 
Boom. The studies aren't in the hitters, but in the pitchers pitching after Wakefield and Dickey. Studies in the hitters might be more interesting, but looking at the pitchers does seem to indicate there may be something to the carryover effect.
 
Bumping this thread.  With Wright pitching a double-header today, wouldn't it make sense for him to start game one, not game two?  The latest news has Wright pitching game two, not game one, which would seem to suggest that Farrell doesn't believe in the research here.
 

absintheofmalaise

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AB in DC said:
 
Bumping this thread.  With Wright pitching a double-header today, wouldn't it make sense for him to start game one, not game two?  The latest news has Wright pitching game two, not game one, which would seem to suggest that Farrell doesn't believe in the research here.
Do you have a link to that research?