Lester to Cubs: Rent Garments Thread

NDame616

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nattysez said:
This is a little silly -- seems unlikely the Sox would have ever offered this much during ST -- but anyway:
 
Before settling for my wife, it would've been "very difficult" to turn down the sexual advances of Megan Fox.
 

The Boomer

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NDame616 said:
Before settling for my wife, it would've been "very difficult" to turn down the sexual advances of Megan Fox.
 
Before you met your wife, you were having bad luck with the women while looking for a mate.  You had your chances but didn't want to settle, so you upped your game and, in your best case scenario, met the babe who became your spouse.
 

JimD

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So, his idea of a 'hometown discount' was the Scherzer deal minus one year.  Got it.
 

DavidTai

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To get to that point where he'd settle, Lester's counteroffer to 4/70 would have to be insanely higher than that.
 
No wonder Lester's agents didn't even submit a counteroffer. 5/120 was insane to begin with for where he'd -settle- coming off 2013. The counter-offer, if they'd made one, would be what, around Kershaw money?
 

TheoShmeo

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I wonder why Pete Abe didn't tweet out that Lester rejected the notion that he was insulted by the Sox initial offer with an equally pithy "there you go."  I guess it wouldn't have gone along with the predetermined narrative.
 
"I think that's an easy topic to pick on for a lot of people. We're all men. We all understand what they were trying to do. By no means was I insulted. By no means were my feelings hurt," Lester said. "They had a game plan and we had a game plan and we went into it with our plans. Just, for whatever reason, we couldn't get anything done before the [2014] season started." 
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/41409/jon-lester-probably-would-have-taken-5-year-120m-red-sox-extension-last-spring
 
My take is that if they wanted him and he wanted them, then it was a collective blunder on both of their parts to get it done.  It's much more fun to lay 100% of the blame on one side or the other, and the explanation for a failed negotiation is rarely that simple.
 

Plympton91

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I don't see why "not insulting him" is the standard by which we should judge the offer from the Red Sox. I also see no way in which Lester's team can be blamed for any aspect of the negotiation. The Red Sox needed Lester more than Lester needed the Red Sox, yet everything from their initial offer to the final offer failed to recognize that. DBMH nailed it in the spring; that probably means they didn't feel they needed him more than heneeded them and never really wanted to sign him unless they got a massive discount. So, now they're on to plan B, which so far seems fine.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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If you are acknowledging that "plan B" looks fine so far and are concluding that they didn't intend to sign him for what he was worth, why does blame need to be assigned at all?
 

joe dokes

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TheoShmeo said:
 
My take is that if they wanted him and he wanted them, then it was a collective blunder on both of their parts to get it done.  It's much more fun to lay 100% of the blame on one side or the other, and the explanation for a failed negotiation is rarely that simple.
 
That's how experienced negotiators look at it. If a makeable deal doesn't get done, I've failed.  (This presupposes that 5/120 was "makeable.")
To get to that point where he'd settle, Lester's counteroffer to 4/70 would have to be insanely higher than that.
 
No wonder Lester's agents didn't even submit a counteroffer. 5/120 was insane to begin with for where he'd -settle- coming off 2013. The counter-offer, if they'd made one, would be what, around Kershaw money?
 
 
I guess Lester's side could have responded to 4/70 with 6/150 and a message not to interpret that as a signal to split the difference at 5/110 (if 5/120 was their bottom line).
 

joe dokes

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Plympton91 said:
I don't see why "not insulting him" is the standard by which we should judge the offer from the Red Sox. I also see no way in which Lester's team can be blamed for any aspect of the negotiation. The Red Sox needed Lester more than Lester needed the Red Sox, yet everything from their initial offer to the final offer failed to recognize that. DBMH nailed it in the spring; that probably means they didn't feel they needed him more than heneeded them and never really wanted to sign him unless they got a massive discount. So, now they're on to plan B, which so far seems fine.
 
You can "blame" Lester's side IF it turns out that a counter of 6/150 (to the 4/70) would have eventually led to a deal at 5/120 AND Lester's preference was to stay in Boston.
 
But you don't *have* to "blame" anyone, say for example, if the Sox would never have paid 5/120 for Lester in spring 2014.
 

Leather

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It seems clear to me that, barring a blow-me-away offer from the Red Sox in the Spring, Lester wanted to see what he could do in 2014 and then, if it went well, test free agency.  It went well, so he tested free agency.   
 
Any objective evaluation of the situation leads to the conclusion that, if Lester had wanted to stay as much as some people thought that he did, he would have engaged in negotiations.   This isn't even a situation where negotiations broke down because the Red Sox were being inflexible: Lester's people never entered into negotiations at all.
 
At the end of the day, "I really want to be with the Red Sox" sure sounds like posturing and not much else.  It doesn't cost Lester anything to say, and only places some pressure on the Red Sox from a P.R. angle.   
 

joe dokes

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drleather2001 said:
It seems clear to me that, barring a blow-me-away offer from the Red Sox in the Spring, Lester wanted to see what he could do in 2014 and then, if it went well, test free agency.  It went well, so he tested free agency.   
 
Any objective evaluation of the situation leads to the conclusion that, if Lester had wanted to stay as much as some people thought that he did, he would have engaged in negotiations.   This isn't even a situation where negotiations broke down because the Red Sox were being inflexible: Lester's people never entered into negotiations at all.
 
At the end of the day, "I really want to be with the Red Sox" sure sounds like posturing and not much else.  It doesn't cost Lester anything to say, and only places some pressure on the Red Sox from a P.R. angle.   
 
And I have no problem with the bolded. It's a rational strategy to try to extract more money from the Sox.
 

TheoShmeo

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Plympton91 said:
I don't see why "not insulting him" is the standard by which we should judge the offer from the Red Sox. I also see no way in which Lester's team can be blamed for any aspect of the negotiation. The Red Sox needed Lester more than Lester needed the Red Sox, yet everything from their initial offer to the final offer failed to recognize that. DBMH nailed it in the spring; that probably means they didn't feel they needed him more than heneeded them and never really wanted to sign him unless they got a massive discount. So, now they're on to plan B, which so far seems fine.
If Lester truly wanted to play for the Sox, then you can blame his side, as well as the Red Sox, for that objective not being reached.  
 
If I tell my agent that my objective is X, and that I very much want him to achieve it, then I will blame him for the failure to reach that objective.  The blame may not be exclusively on him.  But he bears some of it.
 
I cited that quote above because I think the meme about the offer being so insulting that it poisoned the water -- a meme being expressed by several Globe writers, and not just the CHB -- to be mind numbingly wrong.  I agree with drleather's take above; if Lester really wanted nothing more than to stay in Boston at a price near market, he would have instructed his team to find a way.  Shutting down negotiations in the face of an offer that even Lester admits was not insulting is simply inconsistent with Lester's publicly stated objectives.
 
That's fine, he had every right to test the market and go to wherever he wanted to go to.  And given the track record of pitchers who have signed contracts in the vicinity of Lester's with the Cubs, I'm glad that particular deal wasn't done with the Sox.  I just find the seemingly widespread acceptance of the notion that things failed because the Sox opened the negotiations as they did to be wrong headed and facile.
 

ivanvamp

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The Boomer said:
 
Before you met your wife, you were having bad luck with the women while looking for a mate.  You had your chances but didn't want to settle, so you upped your game and, in your best case scenario, met the babe who became your spouse.
This is a man that gets it.
 

LahoudOrBillyC

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Seems to me that everyone is happy. Lester is happy (good for him), the Cubs are happy, the Red Sox seem happy enough, certainly looking ahead with a good team. I am happy.

People negotiated, people got rich. My team is good and moving on.
 

Leather

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joe dokes said:
 
And I have no problem with the bolded. It's a rational strategy to try to extract more money from the Sox.
 
Not at all.   Both sides approached it as business.  Which is why it makes me laugh when folks here and elsewhere talk about personal feelings, and "insults" and whatnot, but only in the direction of the Red Sox.  Is it "insulting" to the team when a player puts up a shitty year, like Lester did in 2012?  
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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NJ_Sox_Fan said:
They would have been crazy to offer that pre 2014. 24m per for a guy who was pretty awful the year and a half before the second half of 2013?
 
5/$120 is an interesting number because that's also the number that Lester threw out in July that it would take to restart the negotiations.  I wonder if that number would have done the deal in July.

 
 
While CBS Sports reported Friday that Jon Lester had told the Red Sox he would not be inclined to negotiate a contract extension during the season — citing the pitcher’s desire to focus on his (and the team’s) performance on the field — multiple industry sources indicate there is no set-in-stone mandate to wait to rekindle talks until the offseason.
According to the sources, if the Red Sox presented an offer that would facilitate a short negotiating process then Lester would, indeed, listen.
The Red Sox recently attempted to re-engage in talks with the pitcher, but without indications an offer would be made resulting in an abbreviated negotiations, Lester expressed the desire to hold off on further contract discussions.
The team has seemingly taken the approach of starting on the low end of Lester’s perceived market value, coming in with an initial offer of four years at $70 million. It is the same strategy taken by the Red Sox in talks with Dustin Pedroia andJacoby Ellsbury.
It is believed that an offer in the vicinity of five years, $120 million — which would be somewhat in line with what Philadelphia’s Cole Hamels signed for when inking his six-year, $144 million (with a $20 million club option for 2019) — would be in the neighborhood of what might lead Lester to giving the go-ahead for talks to resume.
 
 
From :  http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80972-extending-lester/?p=5516074
 

The Boomer

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
 
5/$120 is an interesting number because that's also the number that Lester threw out in July that it would take to restart the negotiations.  I wonder if that number would have done the deal in July.
 
 
From :  http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/80972-extending-lester/?p=5516074
 
If Lester had actually negotiated and indicated to Sox management that something in this neighborhood would get the deal done it could have happened.  However, by all reports, Lester never countered in any way or tried to restart negotiations by responding to the Sox in any way.  Even with a "lowball" offer, you can't bid against yourself unless the other side actually state their position.
 

NomosRubber

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The Boomer said:
 
If Lester had actually negotiated and indicated to Sox management that something in this neighborhood would get the deal done it could have happened.  However, by all reports, Lester never countered in any way or tried to restart negotiations by responding to the Sox in any way.  Even with a "lowball" offer, you can't bid against yourself unless the other side actually state their position.
 
The deal didn't get done after the end of the season because the Sox management didn't think Lester was worth $24M per since they set their ceiling at 6/$135M.  Why would you think it was ever going to be done at 5/$120M?  They simply did not assign him that value and surely wouidn't before he demonstrated he could complete a season like he just had.  This horse needs to be buried to spare it from further desecration of its carcass.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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NomosRubber said:
 
The deal didn't get done after the end of the season because the Sox management didn't think Lester was worth $24M per since they set their ceiling at 6/$135M.  Why would you think it was ever going to be done at 5/$120M?  They simply did not assign him that value and surely wouidn't before he demonstrated he could complete a season like he just had.  This horse needs to be buried to spare it from further desecration of its carcass.
 
I think you have to be careful comparing the 5/120 in March or July to their final offer of 6/135.  It's very likely they'd have balked at 5/120 in March and maybe even in July (clearly they did because that figure went public around the All Star break), but I don't know that that would have been the case in November. They have plenty of history of being willing to pay a higher AAV in order to save on years.  An extra $1.5M wouldn't likely be a breaking point if it's a matter of shortening their commitment.