Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top

lovegtm

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There's a difference between being down on the club and being unnerved by a cavalcade of mental mistakes in a game that you know the C's wanted badly. I'm up on the team--very much so to the point that games like these remind me of how I felt during the Brady years and never feeling like the Patriots were really out of any game. But I think it's also OK to acknowledge that this was indeed their best "team" win of the year and also a very ugly win that could've gone the other way easily and done so entirely because of unforced errors by the club. At the top of those errors are all the turnovers, an eye-popping number of which came from JT.
The Warriors had plenty of mistakes of their own that they could feel awful about. Basketball is tough, particularly ultra-competitive basketball when both teams are locked in. Things happen.
 

RSN Diaspora

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The Warriors had plenty of mistakes of their own that they could feel awful about. Basketball is tough, particularly ultra-competitive basketball when both teams are locked in. Things happen.
Sure, but I'm not a Dubs fan and care less about those mistakes. Basketball is tough, and this level is the toughest there is--doesn't negate possibilities for improvement.
 

joe dokes

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The Warriors had plenty of mistakes of their own that they could feel awful about. Basketball is tough, particularly ultra-competitive basketball when both teams are locked in. Things happen.
A lot of things almost happened. The last minute was tighter than it needed to be. But GS had an 11 point 3rdQ lead and only scored 17 points in the 4thQ. GS lost despite holding the arguably best duo in the league to 15-45 shooting.
 

lovegtm

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A lot of things almost happened. The last minute was tighter than it needed to be. But GS had an 11 point 3rdQ lead and only scored 17 points in the 4thQ. GS lost despite holding the arguably best duo in the league to 15-45 shooting.
Right. If the Celtics had played like that in June, they would have won a title in 5 or 6 games, mistakes and all. There has been growth and improvement imo.
 

jablo1312

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When do we start worrying about Tatum's workload? He's averaging a minute more per game this year then last, and is on track to play more games. I know we've heard continually about how he spent the summer trying to develop the endurance necessary to last all the way to June playing a heavy load, but the team might need to start thinking a bit more about the long term plan. Putting more distance between themselves and the rest of the top teams in the east would go a long way towards letting Tatum (and Jaylen) get some much needed rest in March and April.
 

lexrageorge

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I don't know how anyone can come away from that game down on Boston. They had nothing and their depth - that was their best "team" win of the season - still put them over the top. And if it wasn't evident from the rotations and defensive intensity, it really seemed like both teams had this game circled based on their respective comments before and after.

The Warriors needed this game, they had it and yet it slipped away to a team whom they had been beating of late. Even though its only one game, it has to sting.
Right. If the Celtics had played like that in June, they would have won a title in 5 or 6 games, mistakes and all. There has been growth and improvement imo.
I mistakenly listened briefly to Felger & Mazz when they came on at 2pm local time. They were insistent that if the Celtics played like they did in the Finals, the Warriors would win in 4 or 5, LOL. And Shank took a huge dump on the team and Tatum this AM.

If I had a concern about the game, it's the fact that Curry did not have a great shooting day. He made a couple of those miracle shots that only Steph can make, the ones where all you can do is tip your hat and acknowledge that we're watching an all time elite player in action. But he was 9-25 overall; had he hit his shots at a Steph(!) rate, the Celtics probably lose. Of course, Tatum and Brown and Brogdon and White all had bad nights shooting the ball, so the same could be said in the other direction.
 

Jimbodandy

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I mistakenly listened briefly to Felger & Mazz when they came on at 2pm local time. They were insistent that if the Celtics played like they did in the Finals, the Warriors would win in 4 or 5, LOL. And Shank took a huge dump on the team and Tatum this AM.

If I had a concern about the game, it's the fact that Curry did not have a great shooting day. He made a couple of those miracle shots that only Steph can make, the ones where all you can do is tip your hat and acknowledge that we're watching an all time elite player in action. But he was 9-25 overall; had he hit his shots at a Steph(!) rate, the Celtics probably lose. Of course, Tatum and Brown and Brogdon and White all had bad nights shooting the ball, so the same could be said in the other direction.
Don't ever read the comments section.
 

joe dokes

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I mistakenly listened briefly to Felger & Mazz when they came on at 2pm local time. They were insistent that if the Celtics played like they did in the Finals, the Warriors would win in 4 or 5, LOL. And Shank took a huge dump on the team and Tatum this AM.

If I had a concern about the game, it's the fact that Curry did not have a great shooting day. He made a couple of those miracle shots that only Steph can make, the ones where all you can do is tip your hat and acknowledge that we're watching an all time elite player in action. But he was 9-25 overall; had he hit his shots at a Steph(!) rate, the Celtics probably lose. Of course, Tatum and Brown and Brogdon and White all had bad nights shooting the ball, so the same could be said in the other direction.
Cant we assume that the Celtics had some say in how Curry shot? Its truly ridiculous. On the one hand, no one is saying that GSW choked. On the other, no one is saying the Celtics mounted a tough and terrific comeback. It's almost as though, to some people, the Celtics only won the game because the NBA has decided that someone has to be decreed the winner, and that neither team actually had anything to do with the outcome. It just kinda happened.
 

HomeRunBaker

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You're not alone. I'd be lying if I watched last night's game and thought it gave me a ton of confidence in a Warriors vs Celtics rematch, specifically because despite how hard he played, Tatum made a lot of mental errors and the team in general seemed out of it for stretches and played really dumb basketball, with Tatum's seven turnovers leading the way.
Warriors are a tough matchup for Tatum as he relies on his quickness advantage both with his passing and ballhandling which he uses to create his shot. The Warriors playing smaller and quicker seems to affect his offensive game more than any other team so I see this as a matchup problem as opposed to “he just had a bad night.”
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It was a bad matchup but Tatum's team found a way to win.

Also, while perfect execution should always be the goal, that's just not how life works. Given that the NBA does not award style points, that W against Golden State is just as beautiful as any other regular season win and perhaps moreso given the context.

I get that some folks want the entire package including aesthetically pleasing play and perfect results but I will take an ugly win any day. Especially against a team like Golden State. They will dismiss it as just another January game but they wanted this one and it didn't happen. Its not a huge thing but it kind of kills any ideas that the Warriors somehow own Boston.
 

Jimbodandy

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We've reached nouveau riche NBA status when we're knocking the balls off a kid who went 34/19/6 against the world champs and has an enviable playoff resume for a retired guy but is 24.
 

lexrageorge

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Warriors are a tough matchup for Tatum as he relies on his quickness advantage both with his passing and ballhandling which he uses to create his shot. The Warriors playing smaller and quicker seems to affect his offensive game more than any other team so I see this as a matchup problem as opposed to “he just had a bad night.”
But Tatum also missed some open look 3’s. He, Brown, White, Brogdon must have all had the fish; fortunately, Al had the chicken.

I did think Tatum was more successful in creating his own shot than he was in June.
 

HomeRunBaker

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But Tatum also missed some open look 3’s. He, Brown, White, Brogdon must have all had the fish; fortunately, Al had the chicken.

I did think Tatum was more successful in creating his own shot than he was in June.
I attribute much if not all of this to defenses in June being much more dialed in than it is in January.
 

luckiestman

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We've reached nouveau riche NBA status when we're knocking the balls off a kid who went 34/19/6 against the world champs and has an enviable playoff resume for a retired guy but is 24.
It’s very strange and it has been going on for years.
 

BigSoxFan

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We've reached nouveau riche NBA status when we're knocking the balls off a kid who went 34/19/6 against the world champs and has an enviable playoff resume for a retired guy but is 24.
Tatum just needs a ring like KG did in 2008. He’s basically done everything else and we know that “count the ringz” matters with casual fans. Really hope he gets one because he absolutely deserves to be talked about when discussing former and current Celtic greats. He’s also just a really good dude and fun guy to root for.
 

lovegtm

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We've reached nouveau riche NBA status when we're knocking the balls off a kid who went 34/19/6 against the world champs and has an enviable playoff resume for a retired guy but is 24.
The funny thing is, Tatum is 10x harder on himself about it than even the most rabid 98.5 caller.
 

TripleOT

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The Celtics won, despite the Jays struggling to score, because their bench outperformed the GS bench, even with White (again) not providing any offense. Brogdon on last year’s team and Boston would have been the defending champs in this game. I hope the Warriors are not the Finals opponent this season, because they have the pieces and scheme to throttle Tatum.

The Warriors defensive scheme on Tatum reminds me of the football practice apparatus that running backs run through to protect the ball from being fumbled. A long defender crowds Tatum out deep, and when he tries to drive, the defender gets help from teammates showing hands from every direction. And these hands are good at finding the basketball.

One antidote is to start his offense in the post or mid post, on one side of the court, so all four other defenders can’t show hands against him. I would like to see a stat on Tatum efficiency against the Warriors when he initiates the offense from up top. I would bet it’s not good.
 

Eddie Jurak

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We've reached nouveau riche NBA status when we're knocking the balls off a kid who went 34/19/6 against the world champs and has an enviable playoff resume for a retired guy but is 24.
What has Tatum won? He's had 6 years in the NBA. Bird, 6 years into his career, had 3 finals appearances and 2 titles; Tatum has 1 and 0. And Tatum played poorly in the finals loss.

What had Paul Pierce achieved 6 years in? One lost ECF appearance. In year 7, Pierce added a first round exit to his resume along with that ridculous neck bandage presser. Not long after this there was reporting that Ainge offered up Pierce for the chance to draft Chris Paul. It was only later, when Allen and KG came aboard and the Celtic won, that Celtics nation ciewed Pierce entirely in a positive light.

Tatum is being treated no differently than Pierce was. If and when he wins, all of that talk will go away. By contrast, if the Celtics fail tor each the finals, or get there and Tatum has another poor series, it will persist.

This is not rocket science.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I’m not sure how to judge that trade. If we make it a given that Danny had identified Tatum as his number one, it was incredibly risky and I don’t think the gain was worth anything near the risk. (The risk being that PHI or LAL would figure out that Tatum was the prize; you have two teams to outsmart while in the Joe Barry trade Red could be much more sure he would get McHale or Griffith.)

As it turned out maybe (maybe) the C’s wouldn’t have White without the trade. So, sure it worked out and all is well and maybe Danny had reason to be 100% sure that barring an injury to Fultz or Ball that Tatum would be there.

But boy do it over I think Danny should have just taken Tatum first.
I think it was well understood that the Sixers were trading up for Fultz. Understood by the Celtics, the Sixers, Fultz, Fultz's agent, etc. I don't think the Sixers were in a position to change course; and had they done so, whether they would have taken Tatum is unclear. (Arguably, if they wanted Tatum the smart move would have been to just keep #3. It would not have worked out but unless you knew Danny was taking Tatum - not known at the time - then you expect him available there.)

Maybe there would have been a bigger risk that the Lakers went for Tatum instead of Lonzo.
 

Fishy1

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What has Tatum won? He's had 6 years in the NBA. Bird, 6 years into his career, had 3 finals appearances and 2 titles; Tatum has 1 and 0. And Tatum played poorly in the finals loss.

What had Paul Pierce achieved 6 years in? One lost ECF appearance. In year 7, Pierce added a first round exit to his resume along with that ridculous neck bandage presser. Not long after this there was reporting that Ainge offered up Pierce for the chance to draft Chris Paul. It was only later, when Allen and KG came aboard and the Celtic won, that Celtics nation ciewed Pierce entirely in a positive light.

Tatum is being treated no differently than Pierce was. If and when he wins, all of that talk will go away. By contrast, if the Celtics fail tor each the finals, or get there and Tatum has another poor series, it will persist.

This is not rocket science.
I think you're giving a really poor and ungenerous reading of others' arguments. First of all, who said it's rocket science? Obviously it's not rocket science. It's not even Honors Biology. And it's funny you should accuse others of being thick, because I don't think you understand at all the point luckiestman was making, which is that the "talk" of the people you reference - on this board and elsewhere - is impatient and ungrateful, and you're just proving it. Rooting for this team for the last six years has been a blast for most of us, even if you're miserable, and right now there is no denying they are the best team in the NBA.

Secondly, it's dishonest to pretend like "years in the NBA" is the only relevant measure of time. Bird was 24 when he first won an NBA finals. Tatum was a baby when he came into the league, whereas Bird had plenty of seasoning in college, and now Tatum is - guess what - 24, and already in the conversation as one of best players in the league in the best team in the NBA, the finals favorite for years to come so long as they keep the band together. He's gone to the finals once and the Eastern conference finals two others times outside of that, and in an era where there's more parity and talent than ever. Last year he lost to one of the best players and teams of all time, while having a bum shoulder and several hobbled teammates.

Of course there's talk. There's always talk in Boston. That doesn't mean it's anything but silly, impatient drivel.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think you're giving a really poor and ungenerous reading of others' arguments. First of all, who said it's rocket science? Obviously it's not rocket science. It's not even Honors Biology. And it's funny you should accuse others of being thick, because I don't think you understand at all the point luckiestman was making, which is that the "talk" of the people you reference - on this board and elsewhere - is impatient and ungrateful, and you're just proving it. Rooting for this team for the last six years has been a blast for most of us, even if you're miserable, and right now there is no denying they are the best team in the NBA.

Secondly, it's dishonest to pretend like "years in the NBA" is the only relevant measure of time. Bird was 24 when he first won an NBA finals. Tatum was a baby when he came into the league, whereas Bird had plenty of seasoning in college, and now Tatum is - guess what - 24, and already in the conversation as one of best players in the league in the best team in the NBA, the finals favorite for years to come so long as they keep the band together. He's gone to the finals once and the Eastern conference finals two others times outside of that, and in an era where there's more parity and talent than ever. Last year he lost to one of the best players and teams of all time, while having a bum shoulder and several hobbled teammates.

Of course there's talk. There's always talk in Boston. That doesn't mean it's anything but silly, impatient drivel.
If we’re going to talk ungenerous readings, then your reponse to me has to qualify.

Bottom line, Tatum still hasn’t won, it’s surprise at all that people are holding off on elevating him to a status only held by Celtics who have won.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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The most surprising part to me in this is just how hard making shots at the end of the clock is, when everyone knows a shot has to come in a 5 second window.

I knew it was hard, but didn't know it was that hard.
AND they expect the guys on that list to take the shot.

But I did chuckle at Butler’s #…
 

Fishy1

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If we’re going to talk ungenerous readings, then your reponse to me has to qualify.

Bottom line, Tatum still hasn’t won, it’s surprise at all that people are holding off on elevating him to a status only held by Celtics who have won.
Well, let me be clear: if my tone was nasty, it's because I'm a little ticked off. I found your tone patronizing, and I thought you were giving a facile reading of the run of posts above yours, because of course we all understand why WEEI callers give Tatum shit: he hasn't won a championship at the age at which most people are trying to figure out what they're doing with their life or were getting other people coffee. Still, I shouldn't have been nasty.

Anyways, I've been trying for several minutes, and I can't make heads or tails of the substance of your post. "It's surprise at all"? Are you saying it's surprising that people arent elevating him? Or did you mean to say "it's no surprise" - because that's really not the issue here. No one is surprised 98.5 callers aren't happy with watching the best team in the NBA gut out a win.

The question that baffles me is why anyone on this board feels the need to gatekeep greatness when you can just root for it two to three times a week. I really suggest - in all earnestness - trying it.

EDITED: because it's good and nice to be nice
 
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HomeRunBaker

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I think it was well understood that the Sixers were trading up for Fultz. Understood by the Celtics, the Sixers, Fultz, Fultz's agent, etc. I don't think the Sixers were in a position to change course; and had they done so, whether they would have taken Tatum is unclear. (Arguably, if they wanted Tatum the smart move would have been to just keep #3. It would not have worked out but unless you knew Danny was taking Tatum - not known at the time - then you expect him available there.)

Maybe there would have been a bigger risk that the Lakers went for Tatum instead of Lonzo.
Agreed on Fultz but there was similarly zero chance that the Lakers weren’t taking Ball…..Laker fans were bonkers at the thought of Ball in LA. I had posted that summer how the Vegas Summer League, where you could always walk in on game day, was sold out a week in advance from people coming from LA to see him. There wasn’t much risk that Ainge took which of course is why he made the deal.
 

RorschachsMask

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The most surprising part to me in this is just how hard making shots at the end of the clock is, when everyone knows a shot has to come in a 5 second window.

I knew it was hard, but didn't know it was that hard.
I posted this a few pages back, obviously his volume is lower than a lot of these guys, but it does put in perspective just how low percentage those type of shots are. The picture below the tweet is shots to tie or take the lead with 30 seconds or less, since 19-20. He’s incredibly clutch late in games.

View: https://twitter.com/Tucker_TnL/status/1603093741333774337?s=20&t=KGew7V7-ZhNC9wyq067DuA


60311
 

snowmanny

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Agreed on Fultz but there was similarly zero chance that the Lakers weren’t taking Ball…..Laker fans were bonkers at the thought of Ball in LA. I had posted that summer how the Vegas Summer League, where you could always walk in on game day, was sold out a week in advance from people coming from LA to see him. There wasn’t much risk that Ainge took which of course is why he made the deal.
Fair enough. I will grant that Ainge very likely was very secure about the draft order.

It’s a little mind-boggling that Red KNEW McHale >>> Carroll and Ainge KNEW Tatum >>> Fultz.

These other GMs probably watched a lot of tape too.
 

Reverend

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AND they expect the guys on that list to take the shot.

But I did chuckle at Butler’s #…
Well, these things are related, yeah? It’s not just the pressure, but the fact that any team will be playing their best D, and that D will be paying disproportionate attention “the guy,” yeah?

But I agree; the numbers are wild.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Agreed on Fultz but there was similarly zero chance that the Lakers weren’t taking Ball…..Laker fans were bonkers at the thought of Ball in LA. I had posted that summer how the Vegas Summer League, where you could always walk in on game day, was sold out a week in advance from people coming from LA to see him. There wasn’t much risk that Ainge took which of course is why he made the deal.
That makes sense. I think the bottom line is that Ainge was not trying for an incremental gain in draft value. Tatum was his guy and if there wasn't a deal to be made (and still get Tatum) he would just have kept the pick.
 

Smokey Joe

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Fair enough. I will grant that Ainge very likely was very secure about the draft order.

It’s a little mind-boggling that Red KNEW McHale >>> Carroll and Ainge KNEW Tatum >>> Fultz.

These other GMs probably watched a lot of tape too.
It would not surprise me if Ainge made that choice based on his assessment of “character” (remember Jonathan Niednagel?) which is harder to see on tape.
 

nighthob

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I get that some folks want the entire package including aesthetically pleasing play and perfect results but I will take an ugly win any day. Especially against a team like Golden State. They will dismiss it as just another January game but they wanted this one and it didn't happen. It’s not a huge thing but it kind of kills any ideas that the Warriors somehow own Boston.
Generally, but you can tell when teams turn it on, and Golden State flipped the switch for that game.
Yes, Golden State clearly came loaded for bear, and found themselves facing Cocaine Bear instead.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Fair enough. I will grant that Ainge very likely was very secure about the draft order.

It’s a little mind-boggling that Red KNEW McHale >>> Carroll and Ainge KNEW Tatum >>> Fultz.

These other GMs probably watched a lot of tape too.
I don’t remember what I had for dinner yesterday but I remember the lead up to that draft well. JBC was the clear consensus #1 that year even over Darrell Griffith. McHale wasn’t even on a big-name Big Ten team which mattered back then but wasn’t mentioned in the Top-2 at all.
 

snowmanny

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I don’t remember what I had for dinner yesterday but I remember the lead up to that draft well. JBC was the clear consensus #1 that year even over Darrell Griffith. McHale wasn’t even on a big-name Big Ten team which mattered back then but wasn’t mentioned in the Top-2 at all.
I actually called the Sports Huddle to suggest that the Celtics take Griffith #1 and Roosevelt Bouie at #13 and none of them pointed out that I was an idiot.
 

InstaFace

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Yes, Golden State clearly came loaded for bear, and found themselves facing Cocaine Bear instead.
It doesn't get a lot more SoSH than someone casually referencing a movie that won't even be released for a month yet, as if everyone will immediately grasp the comparison.
 

Spelunker

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It doesn't get a lot more SoSH than someone casually referencing a movie that won't even be released for a month yet, as if everyone will immediately grasp the comparison.
The extended Cocaine Bear universe is a lot bigger then the movie.
 

nighthob

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The Celtics won, despite the Jays struggling to score, because their bench outperformed the GS bench, even with White (again) not providing any offense. Brogdon on last year’s team and Boston would have been the defending champs in this game. I hope the Warriors are not the Finals opponent this season, because they have the pieces and scheme to throttle Tatum.

The Warriors defensive scheme on Tatum reminds me of the football practice apparatus that running backs run through to protect the ball from being fumbled. A long defender crowds Tatum out deep, and when he tries to drive, the defender gets help from teammates showing hands from every direction. And these hands are good at finding the basketball.
Yes, the Warriors defensive scheme is throw everyone at Tatum and have them commit 4-5 fouls every time he drives because the refs can't call them all (the Madden era Oakland Raiders D scheme) and will eventually just start ignoring them. And there's no other way to defend Boston than to do that, because even with that scheme Tatum tortured them.

I think that what people are missing is that if Jaylen wasn't clearly in a Knock the Rust Off After Injury game Boston would have blown the doors off of Golden State. The Warriors employed a playoff rotation in order to win and Boston matched them. But their playoff rotation this year is 8/9 guys rather than last year's 7. The addition of Brogdon and Kornet's ability to be serviceable as a 3rd string C have allowed Boston to take it a lot easier this year. This time they don't reach June exhausted from five months of playoff rotations.
 

benhogan

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I don’t remember what I had for dinner yesterday but I remember the lead up to that draft well. JBC was the clear consensus #1 that year even over Darrell Griffith. McHale wasn’t even on a big-name Big Ten team which mattered back then but wasn’t mentioned in the Top-2 at all.
Ha, as a kid I went to MSG and watched JBC/Purdue play in the NIT. Indiana was also there. Not sure why they weren't in the NCAA tournament, maybe they limited the number of Big10 teams in the tourny in those days?

JBC was Ralph Sampson before there was a Ralph Sampson...
 

amarshal2

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Tatum is the most efficient scoring wing in the nba…from the post. While it makes some sense because he’s got that great footwork, it is not something I would have guessed since he also takes a lot of low efficiency fade aways.

View: https://twitter.com/the_bball_index/status/1619062817553846295?s=46&t=YOjdht4WoNuxmvOYsZnGlw


I included bigs below for context. Still about top 5 in nba. Should he be doing it more?

View: https://twitter.com/the_bball_index/status/1619077795635761152?s=46&t=YOjdht4WoNuxmvOYsZnGlw
 

RorschachsMask

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Dude is averaging 35/12/6 on a 63% TS over the teams last 7 games, with an on/off of +31.2, which other guys missing some games plays a big part in, but he still has a +11.4 net rating over that time.

For the month of January he’s averaging 31/10/6 on a 60% TS, and a +12.9 on/off, crazy that we are watching him level up again.
 

lovegtm

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Mazzulla seems to have a consistent Tatum minutes program now. He plays the whole 1st and 3rd, sits for 6 mins in the 2nd, and 4-6 mins in the 4th, depending on the game situation. That gets him 36-38 minutes per game, without much temptation or way to go over.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Tatum is the most efficient scoring wing in the nba…from the post. While it makes some sense because he’s got that great footwork, it is not something I would have guessed since he also takes a lot of low efficiency fade aways.

I included bigs below for context. Still about top 5 in nba. Should he be doing it more?
I've thought that getting JT (and JB and Marcus, but to a lesser extent) into the post a few times a game, particularly when the Cs offense bogs down like it did in the 3Q last night), is a good way to break runs for the other teams but setting up and throwing the ball into the post is so different than what the Cs usually do that I can't imagine Joe calls it very much. My based on nothing but faulty memory observation is that the Cs can organically get the ball to JT in the post particularly when he has a mismatch (due to a switch or cross-matching in transition) so maybe that skews the numbers?

Also, JT takes enough of a beating as it is; not sure how much more he wants to battle people in the post as he would have to if they really tried to get him the ball down there.

But interesting info.