How Much Did LL Have to do With Baseball Ops?
- Thread starter Papelbon's Poutine
- Start date
That's a good point/question.
My impression is that Dave Dombrowski is so hands on with respect to the baseball operation that any GM working under him would have less autonomy and control than a GM working under Larry Lucchino.
As involved as I think we assume LL was, Dombrowski seems to be more front and center in dealing with the major league roster than LL was, and not just for purposes of public relations.
The chain of command with the Sox was always murky but I think it's still fair to assume that Cherington's job would be more limited under DD than it would be under LL. Maybe that's wrong but that's how it appears to me. It appears that the Sox were more in his Ben's hands than they will be in Mike Hazen's.
PS: I think it's also relevant that LL's job has apparently been split between Sam Kennedy, who is taking on the business side, and Dave Dombrowski, who is taking on the player personnel side. Given that LL was effectively doing both jobs, I think it's reasonable to assume that both Sam and Dave will be able to be more "present" with respect to his side than Lucchino could have been. And in any event, DD appears to be more the "de facto GM" than LL ever did.
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I certainly agree that DD will have more impact on Hazen than LL did on Cherington and I understand he left because his power was ultimately diminished. That being said, I don't believe the only person Cherington answered to was Henry. On smaller deals, sure, he probably had a lot more autonomy and was more hands on than Hazen will be, but I have trouble believing that LL wasn't consulted before a contract like Panda or Hanley or Porcello was handed out.
Of course. My point was, and remains, that DD's hiring meant less autonomy for Cherington, and therefore an effective demotion. It was not that there was no one between him and JWH. I have no doubt that Larry had a voice in every move of consequence that was made during his tenure.
Right, Theo's promised book should tell us how the Crawford signing went down.
Despite Theo's presence, Cherington (and Lucchino) are being held partially responsible for Crawford. It's hard to tell from the outside but it seems these guys were trying to think outside the box, using defensive stats, shopping in the mid-tier of free agents, asking guys to play new positions, and taking chances on unathletic-seeming guys. I hate to see that thinking punished, but the Theo/LL/Cherington administration made some high profile errors.
I think Cherington will get another chance somewhere, so we'll see.
And Theo's early returns with the Cubs are very promising.
Maybe it really was all Lucchino's fault.
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By whom? You?
If Henry had a bug up his ass about the role BC played with Crawford, I tend to doubt he would have promoted Cherington when Theo left town. Lucchino is 70 years old and has health problems. He left because he bought into the PawSox, not because Henry forced him out due to signing off on Crawford.
Not that this is the point of the thread...but do we know that's exactly why LL left? Even if the public statements by John or Larry were to that effect (which I don't remember but might be the case), I doubt it's as linear as the PawSox purchase or, for that matter, the Crawford contract. I suspect, rather, that there were multiple factors, and that some of the bad decisions that had been made under LL's watch contributed to the change.
Okay didn't realize it got broke out. @TheoShmeo
I don't think it's as linear as the Pawsox purchase, as witnessed by the sentence previous to the one you bolded. But I find it hard to believe they pushed him out. At the end of the day, Henry himself approved the moves. I'm sure Henry has seen plenty of bad decisions over his career and understands they come part and parcel. At the very least I don't think LL was "held accountable" for Crawford - even if you don't want to believe that an old man who had been reported to have health issues from his accident and was already toning down his workload decided to leave and buy the PawSox and instead that he was fired, at least acknowledge that with the leaky sieve that is the Red Sox something would have come out. It's not like he was beloved universally in the organization.
I don't think it's as linear as the Pawsox purchase, as witnessed by the sentence previous to the one you bolded. But I find it hard to believe they pushed him out. At the end of the day, Henry himself approved the moves. I'm sure Henry has seen plenty of bad decisions over his career and understands they come part and parcel. At the very least I don't think LL was "held accountable" for Crawford - even if you don't want to believe that an old man who had been reported to have health issues from his accident and was already toning down his workload decided to leave and buy the PawSox and instead that he was fired, at least acknowledge that with the leaky sieve that is the Red Sox something would have come out. It's not like he was beloved universally in the organization.
The point about Henry -- who did not fire himself -- is well taken. And I also strongly agree that LL was not held accountable for the Crawford debacle. Many chefs were involved with that and LL's job went well beyond one bad decision in any event.
In the end, I think we have violent agreement that LL is gone for a variety of reasons, including his health, some bad decisions that he either drove or was very involved with, the PawSox situation and probably other factors we are unaware of.
Except I'm not in agreement - let alone violent agreement - about the bolded and I'm not sure what I've typed that would make you think I am. I believe he is gone for a variety of reasons, all of which were of his own volition. I believe he chose to leave, while you seemingly believe he was at least partially pushed out the door.
Knowing his career - from Baltimore to SD to Boston - this is his routine. Come in, revitalize a team into a contender or a champion, ballparks, etc. Except, he's 70 years old now and is having continued health problems from his motorcycle accident. As witnessed by his statements during spring training
he likely wasn't looking to head to a new MLB team for another overhaul. So I think the PawSox - which is obviously less intense, doesn't require him to relocate, provides an investment opportunity and allows him to scratch his stadium itch on a much smaller scale - is a pretty natural move and not one that calls for overt speculation with no basis.
And again, knowing the Red Sox and the Boston media, if he was in fact even gently nudged to the door, I find it extremely difficult to believe we wouldn't have read about it from Shank or some other vulture.
So how do you think the Crawford signing was decided? Who was for, who was against, and what were their arguments? It certainly seems from the outside that Lucchino talked the pure baseball guys into signing a big free agent that year. Theo said in the past he'd felt pressure from PR forces. I bet Carmine was violently against.
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Also, PP: If Henry thought that baseball ops under Lucchino was doing a good job, Cherington would be the GM right now.
Wait, so Henry fired LL but offered BC to keep his job and salary? If he was so displeased with the entire ops department that he fired LL, why were Hazen, Baird etc retained?
I'm a bit curious on what Ben needed LL (and/or ownership) to sign off on. Crawford, obviously - and that maybe wasn't even his decision. Did LL need to sign off on Victorino? Napoli? Dempster? Gomes? Did ownership get involved with these lesser deals?
We know JWH was involved in the discussions about David Price, but what about Chris Young? The Kimbrel trade?
If Mike Hazen went out and signed a role player to a 1 year, $2M contract without consulting DD, what would be the repercussions, if any?
Okay, maybe that last one is a bit silly.
We know JWH was involved in the discussions about David Price, but what about Chris Young? The Kimbrel trade?
If Mike Hazen went out and signed a role player to a 1 year, $2M contract without consulting DD, what would be the repercussions, if any?
Okay, maybe that last one is a bit silly.
Ben didn't sign Crawford. Theo did. Ben was in charge of the leg work and research, but it was Theo's call to go forward and top the Angels offer. And it was well documented that Theo called Henry directly for consent to go above their allotted price tag on him to do so.
As to the rest I would imagine that there is some kind of threshold where Henry says he needs to give express consent. Or they make their pitch ahead of time and Henry signs off on total payroll or a particular price tag on a player and if they want to go higher than that, they need his consent. That being said, I'm also pretty sure Henry is aware of who the targets are and what the framework of offers will be before they even call an agent. While it doesn't seem like he meddles, I don't think that means he is not in the loop on most transactions.
As to the rest I would imagine that there is some kind of threshold where Henry says he needs to give express consent. Or they make their pitch ahead of time and Henry signs off on total payroll or a particular price tag on a player and if they want to go higher than that, they need his consent. That being said, I'm also pretty sure Henry is aware of who the targets are and what the framework of offers will be before they even call an agent. While it doesn't seem like he meddles, I don't think that means he is not in the loop on most transactions.
Yeah, I can't prove it but my sense is that not all of the reasons that Larry is gone were volitional. I don't think he was fired per se but my take from all I read and observed is that there was some dissatisfaction on Henry's part and some minimizing of his role, which combined with the other factors (health, Pawtucket, age), resulted in his departure. That there is no story out there on this does not mean much to me. From what I understand, Shank and Larry are close, and I could see the CHB choosing not to write that Larry left partially for these reasons. Similarly, that no one otherwise leaked it doesn't change my views as I view that whole meme as overstated. The Boston media doesn't get every story on their own or on a platter. Finally, that Larry's statement did not address this does not move me at all. They accomplished so much together here and I would assume that he chose to leave whatever negatives existed at the end unsaid.
I could be wrong and it could be all Larry's choice. But I seriously doubt it.
And Crystalline, my guess is that CC was a collective judgment of Theo, Ben, Larry, John and Tom, and others in the organization. With that size of a contract, I'm sure there was healthy debate and I would assume they collectively got comfortable with going forward. Without being a fly on the wall, it's really difficult to know who the driver was and who had the biggest reservations. That said, even if Larry was the A1 driver, the reports are that he played a key role in the Dodgers trade, so he certainly redeemed himself well there. After all, that trade was key to the 2013 title year. As a result, it's hard for me to believe that the Crawford signing, by itself, played a big role in whatever happened with Larry's departure.
To the original question, I think LL had more say on baseball ops than many fans would realize. The GM of course has to answer to someone, but his leash would be different lengths depending on each organization and it's structure. The Sox for a lack of a better phrasing, put Theo and Ben out front and center. They were the face of the Sox hierarchy during their tenures, but we all know that the Larry often got involved negotiations and that from reports that didn't always sit well with Theo. The difference I see between the DD/Hazen era and LL/Theo/Ben here in the early days is that the roles are more clearly defined. There is no doubt that DD is the front man, the face and for all intents and purposes the GM in the public eye. He's not in the shadows approving or disapproving of moves being made. Everything comes through his office. In fact I only thought of Hazen when seeing him at the press conference and said "Oh yeah, that guys the GM." It's seems to be structured much the same on the North Side of Chicago. I'm guessing most in baseball would think Theo is the GM.
I think that LL was the supervising executive to BC. I don't think BC had the power to sign either Ramirez or Sandoval without LL's approval. Too much money was involved. Whether the RS "brain trust" or Henry himself became convinced by BC or LL, I don't know, but I think BC took the blame and LL was eased out to Pawtucket. I don't know that we'll ever know, but I do think BC deserved a better fate, and hopefully he will get another chance, because he seemed quite knowledgeable. Money was probably paid, conditional on him keeping quiet.
Personally I think LL was forced out over the botched Lester negotiations which had Lucchino's stink all over them.
Or, at least it was the final straw in combination with his age and health.
Or, at least it was the final straw in combination with his age and health.
My thought also. Not sure about the 'forced out' part, but it certainly appears that Lucchino was directly involved in the Lester negotiations. I also find it strange that Ben went from being the guy getting ridiculed by the baseball press for 'overpaying' good-but-not-great players before the 2013 season to coming up with the insulting 4/$70 offer to the team's beloved homegrown ace. Not overpaying for 30-year-old pitchers is defensible, but that offer just feels at odds with Ben's MO.
Gammo with a pretty informative historical narrative appreciation and detailing of DD and his recent Boston takeover.
As for LL
Pretty indisputable he had a role in baseball op's. How big that role was or when it declined it not necessarily easy to tell but Valentine and Lester certainly didn't help. Though one could argue the 70 mill offer had to somewhat originate from Henry.
http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-dombrowskis-gillickesque-red-sox-revamp/
As for LL
Pretty indisputable he had a role in baseball op's. How big that role was or when it declined it not necessarily easy to tell but Valentine and Lester certainly didn't help. Though one could argue the 70 mill offer had to somewhat originate from Henry.
http://www.gammonsdaily.com/peter-gammons-dombrowskis-gillickesque-red-sox-revamp/
From the Gammons piece:
Not a good look for Lucchino, given that he was Cherington's direct superior.
He was already gone by the time they hired DD. That reflects on Henry and Werner. It's not LL's place to be the one to relay that info to BC - his retirement had already been announced and he had nothing but ceremonial status at that point.