Hot and Not Hot Cs Takes...Will They Age Well?

BrotherMouzone

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I generally agree with you, but there's no harm in pointing out things that can improve. This team has been great so far, but if they want a banner I think they still need to step it up (as does every other team in the League).
There's valid criticism, and then there's bullshit nonsense that the only guys on the team that have "a single-minded focus on winning" (whatever the hell that means) are Al Horford and Derrick White. Takes like that deserved to be mocked and criticized.
 

RorschachsMask

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A stat that surprised me a bit, but Holiday averages the most defensive miles per game on the team, and the fastest average speed, as well. I would have expected White, I think.

Defensive miles per game
Holiday 1.24
Jaylen 1.15
White 1.13
Tatum 1.12

Average speed on defense
Holiday 3.84
White 3.80
Jaylen 3.65
Tatum 3.34

Also, for the season, Jaylen has played 926 possessions at SF, Tatum has played 693. So attributing the rebounding advantage to hanging around in the corner while never playing with two bigs is a bit of a take.
 
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Auger34

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A stat that surprised me a bit, but Holiday averages the most defensive miles per game on the team, and the fastest average speed, as well. I would have expected White, I think.

Defensive miles per game
Holiday 1.24
Jaylen 1.15
White 1.13
Tatum 1.12

Average speed on defense
Holiday 3.84
White 3.80
Jaylen 3.65
Tatum 3.34

Also, for the season, Jaylen has played 926 possessions at SF, Tatum has played 693. So attributing the rebounding advantage to hanging around in the corner while never playing with two bigs is a bit of a take.
Legitimate question: Doesn’t the faster average speed and more miles mean that Tatum is in the corner more or am I misinterpreting?
 

RorschachsMask

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Legitimate question: Doesn’t the faster average speed and more miles mean that Tatum is in the corner more or am I misinterpreting?
Of course, Jaylen definitely moves a bit more on defense. But the paragraph below is a pretty gross over exaggeration, and just false on top of it. It’s purposely meant to paint Tatum as either lazy or inactive defensively, while Jaylen chases around the fastest guy all game, which as the stats show, is more likely to be White or Holiday. It’s just more of the Jaylen/Tatum toilet cycle that always happens.

The reason Jaylen's rebounding is so much lower is because unlike Tatum, Brown is spending his time on the defensive end running around the circle guarding the opposing team's fastest players night in and night out, while Tatum hangs around guarding guys in the corner grabbing boards off the back end of the rim. Tatum's offensive rebounding % has dropped from 3.2 to 2.1 this season (Jaylen is at 2.0). And when Tatum comes off the floor, he's usually replaced by Al, leaving Brown out there with KP and Al. Tatum almost never plays with 2 bigs.
 

lovegtm

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Tatum comparisons aside, I think getting the big contract affected Jaylen, but mostly positively.

He's clearly trying harder on D, and has been more willing to work on aspects of his game like reading the floor, even if his overall usage comes down.

This is apparent both in numbers and the eye test, where the team has looked progressively less lost in the non-Tatum minutes.
 

Deathofthebambino

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A stat that surprised me a bit, but Holiday averages the most defensive miles per game on the team, and the fastest average speed, as well. I would have expected White, I think.

Defensive miles per game
Holiday 1.24
Jaylen 1.15
White 1.13
Tatum 1.12

Average speed on defense
Holiday 3.84
White 3.80
Jaylen 3.65
Tatum 3.34

Also, for the season, Jaylen has played 926 possessions at SF, Tatum has played 693. So attributing the rebounding advantage to hanging around in the corner while never playing with two bigs is a bit of a take.

Ok good, now do the number of possessions for shooting guard.

I have no idea how these numbers are calculated. If Tatum starts the game, and plays most of his minutes with Jrue/White/Brown/KP, how the hell is he putting up that many possessions as a small forward? He's a POWER FORWARD in that lineup, is he not?
 

Deathofthebambino

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Of course, Jaylen definitely moves a bit more on defense. But the paragraph below is a pretty gross over exaggeration, and just false on top of it. It’s purposely meant to paint Tatum as either lazy or inactive defensively, while Jaylen chases around the fastest guy all game, which as the stats show, is more likely to be White or Holiday. It’s just more of the Jaylen/Tatum toilet cycle that always happens.
No, it's not meant to paint Tatum as lazy, it's meant to explain the rebounding numbers. This isn't controversial, one only needs to watch the games to see where they are positioned when the opposing team shots go up.

Are you trying to make the argument that Jayson Tatum is out there guarding the PnR's and contesting 3 point shots even close to as often as Jaylen is this season? If so, I need to see some evidence, because I'm happy to spend the entire night in the game thread pointing out how false it is.

It's an explanation, not an argument against Tatum. Let me riff off your post:

The Jaylen/Tatum stuff is so ridiculous, even here. It always goes the same way. Someone says something about Tatum, then there is a response where a poster defends Tatum and says negative stuff about Brown, even though the original post wasn't even negative about Tatum.
 

RorschachsMask

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Ok good, now do the number of possessions for shooting guard.

I have no idea how these numbers are calculated. If Tatum starts the game, and plays most of his minutes with Jrue/White/Brown/KP, how the hell is he putting up that many possessions as a small forward? He's a POWER FORWARD in that lineup, is he not?
Because most lineups without Jaylen, Tatum is at the 3. Hauser usually defends the 4, although the other team almost always tries forcing switches with him on the perimeter.
 

RorschachsMask

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No, it's not meant to paint Tatum as lazy, it's meant to explain the rebounding numbers. This isn't controversial, one only needs to watch the games to see where they are positioned when the opposing team shots go up.

Are you trying to make the argument that Jayson Tatum is out there guarding the PnR's and contesting 3 point shots even close to as often as Jaylen is this season? If so, I need to see some evidence, because I'm happy to spend the entire night in the game thread pointing out how false it is.
Where did I say anything negative about Jaylen? By pointing out that Holiday and White usually defend the other teams fastest players?
 
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Auger34

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I think it’s fair to recognize that Tatum gets more boards because he’s generally playing help defense. I don’t think that’s a shot at Tatum.

That set-up also plays to the Jays strengths. Tatum is more aware and better at helping, Brown is better on ball where he’s forced to focus.

I didn’t think @Deathofthebambino was taking a shot at Tatum FWIW.

He’s definitely a Jaylen defender but he’s also definitely not a Tatum hater
 

Deathofthebambino

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Where did I say anything negative about Jaylen? By pointing out that Holiday and White usually defend the other teams fastest players?
Like I said, I was riffing off this post:

The Jaylen/Tatum stuff is so ridiculous, even here. It always goes the same way. Someone says something negative about Jaylen, then there is a response where a poster defends Jaylen and says negative stuff about Tatum, and so on and so on.
 

RorschachsMask

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No, it's not meant to paint Tatum as lazy, it's meant to explain the rebounding numbers. This isn't controversial, one only needs to watch the games to see where they are positioned when the opposing team shots go up.

Are you trying to make the argument that Jayson Tatum is out there guarding the PnR's and contesting 3 point shots even close to as often as Jaylen is this season? If so, I need to see some evidence, because I'm happy to spend the entire night in the game thread pointing out how false it is.
Saying “unlike Jaylen, Tatum hangs around in the corner and grabs rebounds off the back of the rim” is absolutely trying to paint a picture lol, denying it is silly.

As for your other point.

Tatum defends 8 isolation plays per game, Jaylen defends 9.

Tatum defends the PnR ball handler 3.4 times a game, Jaylen does 4.2.

Neither of them defend enough guys running off screens per game to qualify.

Tatum defends 3.4 spot ups per game, Jaylen defends 3.2.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think it’s fair to recognize that Tatum gets more boards because he’s generally playing help defense. I don’t think that’s a shot at Tatum.

That set-up also plays to the Jays strengths. Tatum is more aware and better at helping, Brown is better on ball where he’s forced to focus.

I didn’t think @Deathofthebambino was taking a shot at Tatum FWIW.

He’s definitely a Jaylen defender but he’s also definitely not a Tatum hater
Couldn't be less of a Tatum hater. Christ, I've spent more money on Tatum jerseys for my son over the years than I can add up.

My initial post was in response to HRB's post about how Tatum had leveled up across the board, and how Brown has taken his foot off the gas because of his contract. I asked for an explanation, haven't received it and pointed out that Brown's rebounding numbers are down this year because of how he's being used defensively. I really don't think this is controversial. If Brown is on the court, he's basically never the #4. Sometimes, he's the #2, sometimes he's the #3, but he's not down there in rim protection, or backside covering the corner or the opposite 3 point line. He's running around the arc, on PnR's and contesting defenders away from the hoop. He is generally always on the court with Tatum/KP or Horford/KP or sometimes with the 2nd unit with Horford/Kornet.

Tatum is playing most of his minutes at the #4. It's going to lead to more defensive rebounds.

I can't even fucking believe I'm in this forum trying to explain this.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Saying “hangs around in the corner and grabs rebounds off the back of the rim” is absolutely trying to paint a picture lol, denying it is silly.

As for your other point.

Tatum defends 8 isolation plays per game, Jaylen defends 9.

Tatum defends the PnR ball handler 3.4 times a game, Jaylen does 4.2.

Neither of them defend enough guys running off screens per game to qualify.

Tatum defends 3.4 spot ups per game, Jaylen defends 3.2.
You keep posting these stats. You want to share where you're getting them?

But don't worry, challenge accepted. I will be sure to point this out in the game thread, and then when tonight's stats are revealed from your site, we can compare to what actually happened.
 

RorschachsMask

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You keep posting these stats. You want to share where you're getting them?

But don't worry, challenge accepted. I will be sure to point this out in the game thread, and then when tonight's stats are revealed from your site, we can compare to what actually happened.
Here you go.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/spot-up?TypeGrouping=defensive&dir=A&sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION

Challenge accepted? Lol have fun with that, I’m just posting the actual nba tracking data. You take the Jaylen stuff way too personally, especially as I didn’t say a negative thing about him.
 

SteveF

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Tatum defends 8 isolation plays per game, Jaylen defends 9.
Where is this data coming from? Is this a bball-index thing?
Edit: Maybe you just dropped the decimal and this is NBA.com data. It doesn't impact the argument either way, I was just curious if there was some site making a distinction between plays/actions and shots.
 
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Deathofthebambino

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Here you go.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/spot-up?TypeGrouping=defensive&dir=A&sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION

Challenge accepted? Lol have fun with that, I’m just posting the actual nba tracking data. You take the Jaylen stuff way too personally, especially as I didn’t say a negative thing about him.
No, you called out my post as being negative towards Tatum, didn't you?

For the record, we have 21 games of highlights in the other thread. The nice part is they show the other teams shots too. Here's the last game.

Just watch the Knicks possessions, tell me how often Tatum isn't within 5 feet of the hoop when a shot goes up. That's why he gets rebounds, he's the #4 on this team. I don't give a shit how bad NBA tracking is at figuring out where Tatum ends up defensively, I watch the actual games.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwyrp8B7YCs&t=501s
 

RorschachsMask

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Let’s take a look at another way part of that post, where once again, it was clear what you were doing.

Tatum is basically the same from 3 (.356 this year, to .350 last year), he's been much better from 2, but he's been worse from the free throw line.

Brown's been worse from the field, better from 3 and worse from the free throw line.
Tatum is basically the same from three, and Jaylen has been better from three? They both are exactly 0.6 up from last season. Why is one basically the same, and the other is just better?

You can say otherwise, but there was absolutely a clear tone in your post. You want to continue arguing about something obvious? Enjoy, I have no interest.
 

Euclis20

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It's interesting, basketball reference has Tatum spent 20% of his time at SF this year (79% at PF), while Brown spends 66% of his time at SF (32% of his time at SG). That matches the eye test for me, even if Hauser is usually the one defending the opposing 4 when both he and Tatum are playing (and I'm not sure I agree with that, it seems like Hauser is always going to match up with whichever forward is less of an offensive threat). Tatum is taller and heavier (and stronger) than Hauser, and those attributes are really the difference between SFs and PFs. It's not like point guard which has an entirely different roll, especially in the current climate where everyone shoots 3s and everyone plays away from the basket to spread the floor, generally speaking the bigger forward is playing the 4.
 

RorschachsMask

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No, you called out my post as being negative towards Tatum, didn't you?

For the record, we have 21 games of highlights in the other thread. The nice part is they show the other teams shots too. Here's the last game.

Just watch the Knicks possessions, tell me how often Tatum isn't within 5 feet of the hoop when a shot goes up. That's why he gets rebounds, he's the #4 on this team. I don't give a shit how bad NBA tracking is at figuring out where Tatum ends up defensively, I watch the actual games.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwyrp8B7YCs&t=501s
So Tatum gets more rebounds because he’s the 4, and he hangs around in the corner? Got it.

Crazy how he was also an equal rebounder when playing almost exclusively the 3. The truth is, Jaylen just is an average rebounder for a wing, it’s okay to say it.
 

RorschachsMask

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It's interesting, basketball reference has Tatum spent 20% of his time at SF this year (79% at PF), while Brown spends 66% of his time at SF (32% of his time at SG). That matches the eye test for me, even if Hauser is usually the one defending the opposing 4 when both he and Tatum are playing (and I'm not sure I agree with that, it seems like Hauser is always going to match up with whichever forward is less of an offensive threat). Tatum is taller and heavier (and stronger) than Hauser, and those attributes are really the difference between SFs and PFs. It's not like point guard which has an entirely different roll, especially in the current climate where everyone shoots 3s and everyone plays away from the basket to spread the floor, generally speaking the bigger forward is playing the 4.
Yeah all the sites are different with their position tracking lol. I usually stick with cleaning the glass for lineup info, and nba.com for play tracking data.

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/team/2/lineups?SF=4268#tab-four_factors
 

Deathofthebambino

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Let’s take a look at another way part of that post, where once again, it was clear what you were doing.



Tatum is basically the same from three, and Jaylen has been better from three? They both are exactly 0.6 up from last season. Why is one basically the same, and the other is just better?

You can say otherwise, but there was absolutely a clear tone in your post. You want to continue arguing about something obvious? Enjoy, I have no interest.
Seriously? Is context like a foreign concept to you?

HRB wrote "Oh [Brown] got lucky that last years career highs are now down across the board this year. Funny how that "fucking nonsense" works.

Someone asked him if that meant Tatum had taken his foot off the gas too. He said "Tatum is actually up in several while blowing away his previous years shooting numbers from the field."

Now go read my post again, and tell me what you think it means in that context, instead of the context you've created in your head.
 

RorschachsMask

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Seriously? Is context like a foreign concept to you?

HRB wrote "Oh [Brown] got lucky that last years career highs are now down across the board this year. Funny how that "fucking nonsense" works.

Someone asked him if that meant Tatum had taken his foot off the gas too. He said "Tatum is actually up in several while blowing away his previous years shooting numbers from the field."

Now go read my post again, and tell me what you think it means in that context, instead of the context you've created in your head.
So 0.6 is basically the same for one, and better for another. There’s no context needed there, was pretty clear.

You want to track plays tonight because you think the nba trackers are wrong? Have fun. Everyone who has used (pretty much every nba writer there is) the official nba play tracking data for years has just been wasting their time.

I like interacting with you here, but the Jaylen stuff brings out some nastiness in you lol.
 

Deathofthebambino

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So Tatum gets more rebounds because he’s the 4, and he hangs around in the corner? Got it.

Crazy how he was also an equal rebounder when playing almost exclusively the 3. The truth is, Jaylen just is an average rebounder for a wing, it’s okay to say it.
Have you had a chance to watch the highlights I've posted, and answer my question?

No, because it doesn't match whatever site you choose to believe instead of your eyes?

There's only so many rebounds to go around in a game, aren't there? If Tatum/KP/Horford are on the court grabbing boards, and Jaylen is out at the circle with Derrick White/Holiday chasing the guys with the ball, it would seem to me there's a rebounding distinction to be made, no?

I've never talked about Jaylen's rebounding around here before, as far as I know. He's basically no different than Jimmy Butler. He's not supposed to be rebounding, so yeah, I guess it makes him average. He's supposed to be defending the guys with the ball in their hands away from the hoop.
 

RorschachsMask

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Have you had a chance to watch the highlights I've posted, and answer my question?

No, because it doesn't match whatever site you choose to believe instead of your eyes?

There's only so many rebounds to go around in a game, aren't there? If Tatum/KP/Horford are on the court grabbing boards, and Jaylen is out at the circle with Derrick White/Holiday chasing the guys with the ball, it would seem to me there's a rebounding distinction to be made, no?

I've never talked about Jaylen's rebounding around here before, as far as I know. He's basically no different than Jimmy Butler. He's not supposed to be rebounding, so yeah, I guess it makes him average. He's supposed to be defending the guys with the ball in their hands away from the hoop.
Then why did Tatum rebound this well when he was the 3, and playing with Rob/Al?
 

Deathofthebambino

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So 0.6 is basically the same for one, and better for another. There’s no context needed there, was pretty clear.

I like interacting with you, but the Jaylen stuff brings out some nastiness in you lol.

You want to track plays because you think the nba trackers are wrong? Have fun. Everyone who has used (pretty much every nba writer there is) the official nba play tracking data for years has just been wasting their time.
Just let me know which NBA writer I'm supposed to believe moreso than my own eyes. I'll be sure to subscribe to their work. If I want to get an opinion on a Denver/Minnesota game I didn't watch, sure, I'll look at the stats, but when I haven't missed a second of a Celtics game in like 2 decades, I'm pretty comfortably knowing who is guarding where and who is in a position for defensive rebounds without needing some website to explain it to me.

The better argument you could have been making all along is that Tatum is such a good defender that when the guy he's guarding gets the ball in his hands, teams run a pick to get Tatum out of the action, resulting in Tatum being off ball and in position to rebound.

I would have at least granted that, instead of whatever backhanded stats based nonsense that Tatum guards 8 guys per game in ISO (I think by the way, that stat is a percentage, not a number, it was 7.7%) and Brown guards 9.3% (not really 9-8, now is it).


The reality is teams don't put either of them into ISO very often, but this current C's team is also not switching nearly as much as last year's team, but the idea that Tatum and Brown are guarding equally or even close to equally, the arc, is a fallacy in every fucking respect. It would take all of 2 hours to prove that categorially false.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Then why did Tatum rebound this well when he was the 3, and playing with Rob/Al?
Putting aside the limited minutes that Tatum actually played with Al and Rob, shouldn't I ask you the same question?

Why do you think Brown's Reb#'s were so much better with Al and TL last season?

Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with the switch everything defense they've ran until this year, leading to guys like Rob and Al ending up on the perimeter, you know, where Jaylen is this season?
 

Montana Fan

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Hottest of hot takes. I enjoy watching Celtics games and most of the outcomes have been good so far. Looking forward to tonight’s game and will be rooting for the Celtics, especially JB and JT to play well. They’re my two favorites on the team.

Arguing about minuscule anomalies is to be enjoyed by my betters.
 

RorschachsMask

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The reality is teams don't put either of them into ISO very often, but this current C's team is also not switching nearly as much as last year's team, but the idea that Tatum and Brown are guarding equally or even close to equally, the arc, is a fallacy in every fucking respect. It would take all of 2 hours to prove that categorially false.
Tatum defends 4.8 three pointers per game, Jaylen is at 4.

I’ve never once said Jaylen doesn’t move around more on defense, but pretty much all the numbers show it’s a lot closer than you think.
 

RorschachsMask

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Putting aside the limited minutes that Tatum actually played with Al and Rob, shouldn't I ask you the same question?

Why do you think Brown's Reb#'s were so much better with Al and TL last season?

Maybe, just maybe, it had something to do with the switch everything defense they've ran until this year, leading to guys like Rob and Al ending up on the perimeter, you know, where Jaylen is this season?
Limited minutes?

Two years ago Tatum played 1400 possessions with both of them. Last year was another 600.

So Tatum gets so many boards because of a switching defense, and because of non switching defense. Also known as just being a really good rebounder.

Don’t know why that’s something you feel the need to argue.

Also, the Celtics switched much more two years ago than they did last year. That was a big Ime thing, IIRC.
 

Auger34

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@RorschachsMask and @Deathofthebambino are pretty much my two favorite posters on this board.,

I’m not sure what you guys are fighting about at this point. It seems like you pretty much agree with each other but didn’t appreciate the exact language.

Neither of you are part of the Jays Holy War with one side tearing the other down
 

RorschachsMask

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@RorschachsMask and @Deathofthebambino are pretty much my two favorite posters on this board.,

I’m not sure what you guys are fighting about at this point. It seems like you pretty much agree with each other but didn’t appreciate the exact language.

Neither of you are part of the Jays Holy War with one side tearing the other down
Lmao I was thinking it at the end, I was like “this is dumb I can’t do it anymore.”

I love going back and forth with him, it never gets personal or crosses lines.
 

benhogan

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@RorschachsMask and @Deathofthebambino are pretty much my two favorite posters on this board.,

I’m not sure what you guys are fighting about at this point. It seems like you pretty much agree with each other but didn’t appreciate the exact language.

Neither of you are part of the Jays Holy War with one side tearing the other down
Regular season defense = effort, and JB's off-ball defense has been good so far.

"JB taking his foot off the pedal" was said to rile up Team Brown.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Couldn't be less of a Tatum hater. Christ, I've spent more money on Tatum jerseys for my son over the years than I can add up.

My initial post was in response to HRB's post about how Tatum had leveled up across the board, and how Brown has taken his foot off the gas because of his contract. I asked for an explanation, haven't received it and pointed out that Brown's rebounding numbers are down this year because of how he's being used defensively. I really don't think this is controversial. If Brown is on the court, he's basically never the #4. Sometimes, he's the #2, sometimes he's the #3, but he's not down there in rim protection, or backside covering the corner or the opposite 3 point line. He's running around the arc, on PnR's and contesting defenders away from the hoop. He is generally always on the court with Tatum/KP or Horford/KP or sometimes with the 2nd unit with Horford/Kornet.

Tatum is playing most of his minutes at the #4. It's going to lead to more defensive rebounds.

I can't even fucking believe I'm in this forum trying to explain this.
I didn't respond bc, as you and others have said, the thread somehow turned into another JT vs JB battle which had nothing to do with my point last summer. "Taking foot off the gas" isn't about not trying or mailing in games and I thought I made my position clear back then but surely nobody remembers...shit I don't recall specifics but basically....

* To say he hasn't taken foot off the gas is admitting that you don't feel he was super motivated last season in a SuperMax contract year.

* To that point, you'd feel he prepared as hard this past summer with the bag than he did the prior year preparing for the bag.

* I look at the two primary ballskills but in Jaylens case I can focus on his primary deficiency which I think we can all agree is his ballhandling. In prior years he was fine during the regular season vs reg season defenses only to be exposed in the spring when defenses ramp up. To me he seems to be struggling with his handle as if it's the spring and taken a step back from contract year Jaylen the ballhandler.

Look, he's still a real real good player obv and never did I claim he'd fall off the map but I'm seeing kinda what I expected to see and a player who isn't as aggressive as he was in a contract year. Is anyone talking about him playing at an All-NBA level as he was last season? No....that's what I mean by taking foot off gas.

"JB taking his foot off the pedal" was said to rile up Team Brown.
Absolutely fuckin not. Did you forget who was the Captain of Team Brown on Draft Night when people, many in this thread, hated the pick citing complete made up shit about him not being able to shoot simply by looking at raw numbers without context?
 
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Deathofthebambino

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Limited minutes?

Two years ago Tatum played 1400 possessions with both of them. Last year was another 600.

So Tatum gets so many boards because of a switching defense, and because of non switching defense. Also known as just being a really good rebounder.

Don’t know why that’s something you feel the need to argue.

Also, the Celtics switched much more two years ago than they did last year. That was a big Ime thing, IIRC.
I just happen to believe a huge portion of rebounding is where you are in position to rebound when a shot goes up. Guys playing the 4 and 5 defensively are going to get more rebounds. This has been true since a dude in Springfield invented the game.

I could make argument that Jaylen faces less 3 pointers because he's all up in someone shit on defense, they can't get shots off, whereas Tatum is late and forced to contest. I'm not making that argument, I'm making the point that these stats are simply irrelevant if we're trying to have a discussion about why Browns numbers are down and Tatums are the same as last year.

On almost every shot that goes up, Tatum is closer to the rim than Jaylen is. That's just reality. I'm not denigrating Tatum, he's a good rebounder, I was just trying to explain the numbers. Like I said, why have Browns numbers dropped so much vs Tatums numbers? Because Brown isn't playing the 4, at all this year, and he plays the 2 quite a bit. A year ago, the question for all NBA was whether he was a guard or a forward. That question doesn't exist for Tatum because he's clearly a 4 in almost all respects this season, so he should be getting his boards.

And FTR, 2000 possessions over 2 years is limited minutes, given what, 15,000+ possessions over those 2 seasons? He didn't play a lot of double big minutes last season, and he's not this season. Tatum is the 2nd big on that end of the floor when he's playing.

Jaylen Brown is playing defensively the way Jimmy Butler is asked to play defensively. As a result, the defensive rebounding numbers between the two are comparable. That's not a knock on either of the Jay's, it just is...

I was just trying to understand the argument for why Jaylen has apparently taken his foot off the gas, and if he has, whats the argument that Tatum hasnt?
 

Deathofthebambino

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Apr 12, 2005
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I didn't respond bc, as you and others have said, the thread somehow turned into another JT vs JB battle which had nothing to do with my point last summer. "Taking foot off the gas" isn't about not trying or mailing in games and I thought I made my position clear back then but surely nobody remembers...shit I don't recall specifics but basically....

* To say he hasn't taken foot off the gas is admitting that you don't feel he was super motivated last season in a SuperMax contract year.

* To that point, you'd feel he prepared as hard this past summer with the bag than he did the prior year preparing for the bag.

* I look at the two primary ballskills but in Jaylens case I can focus on his primary deficiency which I think we can all agree is his ballhandling. In prior years he was fine during the regular season vs reg season defenses only to be exposed in the spring when defenses ramp up. To me he seems to be struggling with his handle as if it's the spring and taken a step back from contract year Jaylen the ballhandler.

Look, he's still a real real good player obv and never did I claim he'd fall off the map but I'm seeing kinda what I expected to see and a player who isn't as aggressive as he was in a contract year. Is anyone talking about him playing at an All-NBA level as he was last season? No....that's what I mean by taking foot off gas.



Absolutely fuckin not. Did you forget who was the Captain of Team Brown on Draft Night when people, many in this thread, hated the pick citing complete made up shit about him not being able to shoot simply by looking at raw numbers without context?
Except Browns ball handling and turnover rates are better this year, in the regular season, than they have been for like 5 years.

Now if we're talking about eye test, that he's still not a great ball handler, I agree with that, but so far the only Celtic in the top 6 who is turning the ball over less than Jaylen is KP, and that's with Brown averaging .6 offensive fouls (turnovers) per game, which would be a career high by double. So while it may not always look great, the results are certainly better.

Jaylens biggest issue right now is that his shot isn't falling. It is really all it is.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Hottest of hot takes. I enjoy watching Celtics games and most of the outcomes have been good so far. Looking forward to tonight’s game and will be rooting for the Celtics, especially JB and JT to play well. They’re my two favorites on the team.

Arguing about minuscule anomalies is to be enjoyed by my betters.
Liked & Subscribed.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,267
Except Browns ball handling and turnover rates are better this year, in the regular season, than they have been for like 5 years.

Now if we're talking about eye test, that he's still not a great ball handler, I agree with that, but so far the only Celtic in the top 6 who is turning the ball over less than Jaylen is KP, and that's with Brown averaging .6 offensive fouls (turnovers) per game, which would be a career high by double. So while it may not always look great, the results are certainly better.

Jaylens biggest issue right now is that his shot isn't falling. It is really all it is.
Those stats lie from my seat. His usage is down some and he isn't handling the ball in non-end of clock situations nearly as much.

Now is his shot not falling or did he maybe not get as many shots up this offseason? Hmmm food for thought....but this IS what I was expecting.
 

kieckeredinthehead

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Jun 26, 2006
8,640
Controlling for # of touches, Brown has the highest turnover/touch ratio (0.048) than anyone on the team. (Tatum's second at 0.041; Horford's third at 0.032). It's the highest turnover/touch ratio for Brown in his career. If you prefer turnover/time of possession, he's third behind Horford and Porzingis.
 
Last edited:

Montana Fan

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Oct 18, 2000
9,192
Twin Bridges, Mt.
Watching last night’s game I was thinking Jarrett Allen was contributing but really not doing a ton. Which leads me to this hot take. 2023 Luke Kornet, is a poor man’s Jarrett Allen.

LK per 36
11.9 pts
8.9 reb
1.7 ast
2.2 blk
1.4 stl

JA per 36
16.2 pts
10.6 reb
2.8 ast
1.2 blk
0.8 stl
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
21,110
Santa Monica
Watching last night’s game I was thinking Jarrett Allen was contributing but really not doing a ton. Which leads me to this hot take. 2023 Luke Kornet, is a poor man’s Jarrett Allen.

LK per 36
11.9 pts
8.9 reb
1.7 ast
2.2 blk
1.4 stl

JA per 36
16.2 pts
10.6 reb
2.8 ast
1.2 blk
0.8 stl
That's kind of funny (and honestly an eye-opener). Nice post.

I like Jarrett Allen, and would love him on Boston in a world where CAP doesn't matter.
BUT so far Luke is getting the job done as the 3rd string BIG during the regular season.

Once again it just goes to show how fungible deep bench BIGs are and spending on them is a bad use of CAP. Their roles are defined & limited Also, I wouldn't expect much of a difference between Kornet & Queta.
 

HomeRunBaker

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That's kind of funny (and honestly an eye-opener). Nice post.

I like Jarrett Allen, and would love him on Boston in a world where CAP doesn't matter.
BUT so far Luke is getting the job done as the 3rd string BIG during the regular season.

Once again it just goes to show how fungible deep bench BIGs are and spending on them is a bad use of CAP. Their roles are defined & limited Also, I wouldn't expect much of a difference between Kornet & Queta.
Allen is taking a ton of criticism in Cleveland for his effort. What were his best attributes a few years ago when on his rookie contract? Shot blocking/protecting rim and Rebounding. Not to harp on the money thing again but there is a CLEAR trendline to Allen getting his bag and his Rebounding and Shot Blocking numbers tanking.....and this year he's a foul machine as he appears slower (less motivated?) to react.

Having said that....give me Allen over Kornet 8 days a week please.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
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Apr 23, 2010
11,304
Tatum defends 4.8 three pointers per game, Jaylen is at 4.

I’ve never once said Jaylen doesn’t move around more on defense, but pretty much all the numbers show it’s a lot closer than you think.
It seems as if the argument has cooled down so I wanted to ask some questions about some of the specific posts and numbers...

Wouldn't guarding the corner and helping off of the corner man lead to someone defending more 3's per game? As opposed to guarding the person with the ball, who is generally trying to get into the lane?

IMO, it's good coaching by Mazzulla the way the defense is set up this year. Jaylen is better on ball than Jayson. Jayson is better off-ball and helping, it also helps him conserve energy on the offensive end.

I'm going to be honest and say that I've never really noticed either of them to be great rebounders enough to think about it but when I do reflect on it, Tatum does seem to be in good rebounding position a lot
 

RorschachsMask

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Lynn
It seems as if the argument has cooled down so I wanted to ask some questions about some of the specific posts and numbers...

Wouldn't guarding the corner and helping off of the corner man lead to someone defending more 3's per game? As opposed to guarding the person with the ball, who is generally trying to get into the lane?

IMO, it's good coaching by Mazzulla the way the defense is set up this year. Jaylen is better on ball than Jayson. Jayson is better off-ball and helping, it also helps him conserve energy on the offensive end.

I'm going to be honest and say that I've never really noticed either of them to be great rebounders enough to think about it but when I do reflect on it, Tatum does seem to be in good rebounding position a lot
Of course. I never argued that Jaylen doesn’t run around on the perimeter more, I just said it’s closer than he was saying lol. Which as the numbers show, it is close, although Jaylen clearly does more running around, which the numbers show.

Tatum has always been a great rebounder though, and it’s something people take for granted. It’s why the team is able to play small, so often.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
21,110
Santa Monica
Allen is taking a ton of criticism in Cleveland for his effort. What were his best attributes a few years ago when on his rookie contract? Shot blocking/protecting rim and Rebounding. Not to harp on the money thing again but there is a CLEAR trendline to Allen getting his bag and his Rebounding and Shot Blocking numbers tanking.....and this year he's a foul machine as he appears slower (less motivated?) to react.

Having said that....give me Allen over Kornet 8 days a week please.
It's only human nature to get a bag, and spend hours on Zillow instead of the gym. Mo Money Mo Problems

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUhRKVIjJtw
 

slamminsammya

Member
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Jul 31, 2006
10,350
San Francisco
It seems as if the argument has cooled down so I wanted to ask some questions about some of the specific posts and numbers...

Wouldn't guarding the corner and helping off of the corner man lead to someone defending more 3's per game? As opposed to guarding the person with the ball, who is generally trying to get into the lane?

IMO, it's good coaching by Mazzulla the way the defense is set up this year. Jaylen is better on ball than Jayson. Jayson is better off-ball and helping, it also helps him conserve energy on the offensive end.

I'm going to be honest and say that I've never really noticed either of them to be great rebounders enough to think about it but when I do reflect on it, Tatum does seem to be in good rebounding position a lot
with the exception of the big man on the floor, who is defending which action and where is mostly dictated by the offense these days. I don't think Jayson or jaylen being on or off ball more is a mazzulla thing
 

bakahump

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Jan 8, 2001
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Ducks head in "I will keep beating the Hauser is an excellent Rebounder drum." Ducks back out.