No doctor here but I don’t see this at all from anything I’m reading and seeing from his initial reaction and when he was walking off the floor. If he’s back for The Finals I’ll be happy.
Edit: Didn’t see radsox post sorry.
Green Zinger Tea - Kristaps Porziņģis 2023-24
- Thread starter InstaFace
- Start date
Edit: Didn’t see radsox post sorry.
This all makes sense. I guess I am looking to the positive based off KP's tweet saying he was going to be all good, but agree its optimistic to think he'll be back really soon.
Less Horford minutes, due to blowouts, must be a subconscious thing
I am probably more bullish on a Tillman drag 'em into the halfcourt mud lineup than most. His defensive physicality will help in a handful of matchups (Knicks & Joker off the top of my head)
Celtics were 21-4 without Porzingis this season, although several of those 21 wins were against non-playoff teams.
EDIT: Against playoff teams, Celtics were 9-3, beating Philly and the Suns twice and notching victories against the Magic, Clippers, T'Wolves, Mavericks and Pelicans. The losses were to the Pacers, Clippers, and the Bucks, the last being a meaningless late season game that Horford also missed.
Against non-playoff teams, Celtics went 12-1, the only loss being at Golden State in OT, in which Quetta played 20 minutes.
Miami: Don't do a Bruins; win Game 5 at home and earn some rest. Be a good time for a rally around the missing teammate type of game.
EC Semifinals: Neither Cleveland nor Orlando should be much of a threat to a KP-less Celtics team. A series loss here would still be a major disappointment. The risk of a series loss becomes real if another starter were to go down for anything longer than a game or two.
EC Finals: While the Celtics w/o Porzingis should still be favored in any matchup, the margin of error becomes much smaller. Seems like there's a chance KP could return for at least part of a EC Finals matchup, depending how long the series goes, but he may need some time to ramp up as well. And absolutely need everyone else to stay healthy.
Finals: Need KP back regardless of the potential matchup. Good news is that his return by the Finals seems probable, but the healing from such injuries is not always easy to predict.
EDIT: Against playoff teams, Celtics were 9-3, beating Philly and the Suns twice and notching victories against the Magic, Clippers, T'Wolves, Mavericks and Pelicans. The losses were to the Pacers, Clippers, and the Bucks, the last being a meaningless late season game that Horford also missed.
Against non-playoff teams, Celtics went 12-1, the only loss being at Golden State in OT, in which Quetta played 20 minutes.
Miami: Don't do a Bruins; win Game 5 at home and earn some rest. Be a good time for a rally around the missing teammate type of game.
EC Semifinals: Neither Cleveland nor Orlando should be much of a threat to a KP-less Celtics team. A series loss here would still be a major disappointment. The risk of a series loss becomes real if another starter were to go down for anything longer than a game or two.
EC Finals: While the Celtics w/o Porzingis should still be favored in any matchup, the margin of error becomes much smaller. Seems like there's a chance KP could return for at least part of a EC Finals matchup, depending how long the series goes, but he may need some time to ramp up as well. And absolutely need everyone else to stay healthy.
Finals: Need KP back regardless of the potential matchup. Good news is that his return by the Finals seems probable, but the healing from such injuries is not always easy to predict.
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There's not doubt that he'll get some run. The Celtics won't go with only 2 bigs unless it's an elimination game and the rotation drops to like 6/7 guys.Less Horford minutes, due to blowouts, must be a subconscious thing
I am probably more bullish on a Tillman drag 'em into the halfcourt mud lineup than most. His defensive physicality will help in a handful of matchups (Knicks & Joker off the top of my head)
Yea Horford played 37+ mpg 4X this year.
CJM can spread out the loss of KP's offensive production throughout the roster while Al takes over Kristaps 30-33 playoff minutes. FWIW KP averaged under 30mpg this season.
Brad got Tillman for KP Insurance, well it's time to call the adjuster since Boston got itself into a fender bender.
Next man-up mentality
The real shame here is that Cleveland, other than Dallas, is probably the one team remaining where KP could still be a cheat code under the new NBA officiating umbrella. I could easily have seen a sweep with a fully manned squad against Cleveland. KP’s injury could add a game or two to the series.
A coupe of things about calf injuries: [DISCLAIMER: I'n no DRS]
As radsox has ably pointed out, the grading of soft tissue injuries is difficult.
When the gastrocnemius or soleus muscles are injured the muscle fibers are torn and begin to bleed into the posterior lower leg compartment. These injuries become increasingly common with age, especially during explosive physical activities like sprinting, jumping, etc. Most data come from European soccer/rugby and tennis related injuries. However, the physiology is the same. One of the reasons the recovery time can be so variable is (naturally) the severity of the tearing forces applied to the muscle. The soleus muscle is a flat (hence the name - it looks like a flatfish/filet of sole) muscle that lies just below and beneath the larger gastroc (calf) muscle. Often determining WHICH muscle is affected can be a bit difficult. Generally, as you engage these muscles, a straight leg stretch will engage the gastroc and a bent leg stretch will engage the soleus - but that is not always determinative. KP will undoubtedly get an MRI to grade and identify the actual injury. Another confounding factor is the healing process. Once the muscle fibers are injured, there is bleeding. Sometimes this is visible as bruising on the skin- that's a sign of a severe tear. No matter what, there is some bleeding and inflammation. That has to be mitigated - usually with ice, compression and elevation with anti-inflammatory meds. The healing process - paradoxically - can actually be a bit counter productive (initially) which make the recovery unpredictable. Re-injures are super common.
Here's why: As the fibrinogen healing matrix begins to form across the injury, the lattice work of healing fibers are laid down perpendicular to the normal orientation of the healthy muscle fibers. The musculature of the gastroc and soleus run cranial/caudal (north/south), the healing matrix and scar tissue are laid down cross-wise in opposition to patch the wound and deliver blood and healing nutrients to the injury. During healing, these structures are easily re-injured, especially with any sig load placed on the muscle. So...after 48-72 hours of ice and conservative management, therapists will actually break down the scar tissue by massaging (massaging...more like grinding) the fibers in a north/south direction to break up the scar tissue and allow the muscle fibers to re-orient themselves in a physiological distribution. It's a bit of a race between healing and breaking down scar tissue...all the while hoping the muscle heals well enough to support any load. The injured fibers are weak and prone to re-injury when loaded, even once pain is gone. That makes recovery and return to play extremely unpredictable. By breaking down the scar tissue, blood flow improves and healing is more rapid. The physical therapy sessions should help to speed up his recovery. When I have a calf injury - common in middle age runners - I take a metal bar and grind it up and down my calf to accomplish the same result. It's called the Grafton technique. Yes, it hurts. There is no real correlation of this type of injury w/ an Achilles tear unless the tendon itself was injured as well. Seems unlikely. There is always some correlation between age and Achilles injuries but KPs injury seems to be isolated to the soleus/gastroc muscle complex and, as such, does NOT indicate a potential Achilles injury is more/less likely. Get well soon!
As radsox has ably pointed out, the grading of soft tissue injuries is difficult.
When the gastrocnemius or soleus muscles are injured the muscle fibers are torn and begin to bleed into the posterior lower leg compartment. These injuries become increasingly common with age, especially during explosive physical activities like sprinting, jumping, etc. Most data come from European soccer/rugby and tennis related injuries. However, the physiology is the same. One of the reasons the recovery time can be so variable is (naturally) the severity of the tearing forces applied to the muscle. The soleus muscle is a flat (hence the name - it looks like a flatfish/filet of sole) muscle that lies just below and beneath the larger gastroc (calf) muscle. Often determining WHICH muscle is affected can be a bit difficult. Generally, as you engage these muscles, a straight leg stretch will engage the gastroc and a bent leg stretch will engage the soleus - but that is not always determinative. KP will undoubtedly get an MRI to grade and identify the actual injury. Another confounding factor is the healing process. Once the muscle fibers are injured, there is bleeding. Sometimes this is visible as bruising on the skin- that's a sign of a severe tear. No matter what, there is some bleeding and inflammation. That has to be mitigated - usually with ice, compression and elevation with anti-inflammatory meds. The healing process - paradoxically - can actually be a bit counter productive (initially) which make the recovery unpredictable. Re-injures are super common.
Here's why: As the fibrinogen healing matrix begins to form across the injury, the lattice work of healing fibers are laid down perpendicular to the normal orientation of the healthy muscle fibers. The musculature of the gastroc and soleus run cranial/caudal (north/south), the healing matrix and scar tissue are laid down cross-wise in opposition to patch the wound and deliver blood and healing nutrients to the injury. During healing, these structures are easily re-injured, especially with any sig load placed on the muscle. So...after 48-72 hours of ice and conservative management, therapists will actually break down the scar tissue by massaging (massaging...more like grinding) the fibers in a north/south direction to break up the scar tissue and allow the muscle fibers to re-orient themselves in a physiological distribution. It's a bit of a race between healing and breaking down scar tissue...all the while hoping the muscle heals well enough to support any load. The injured fibers are weak and prone to re-injury when loaded, even once pain is gone. That makes recovery and return to play extremely unpredictable. By breaking down the scar tissue, blood flow improves and healing is more rapid. The physical therapy sessions should help to speed up his recovery. When I have a calf injury - common in middle age runners - I take a metal bar and grind it up and down my calf to accomplish the same result. It's called the Grafton technique. Yes, it hurts. There is no real correlation of this type of injury w/ an Achilles tear unless the tendon itself was injured as well. Seems unlikely. There is always some correlation between age and Achilles injuries but KPs injury seems to be isolated to the soleus/gastroc muscle complex and, as such, does NOT indicate a potential Achilles injury is more/less likely. Get well soon!
Thank you.
We got all that and lot of other great medical perspectives simply for the price of admission at SoSH. And no more interstitial ads either. What a messageboard!
We got all that and lot of other great medical perspectives simply for the price of admission at SoSH. And no more interstitial ads either. What a messageboard!
This is great. Thanks!
Particularly appreciate the information about the Grafton technique. I presume a Theragun can approximate the job (though probably not as well)?
It makes sense, right? But the Grafton technique is sustained downward pressure along the course of the muscle fiber. It is a deliberate directional force applied. The intent is to break down the healing matrix and orient the fibers along their normal path, so it's a highly technical therapy w/ a specific aim. Percussion therapy guns are a bit different, although not entirely dissimilar. They agitate the muscle, fascia and connective tissue in a disorganized manner. Still helpful to improve blood flow and get the fascia and muscles to "slide" again" but they are not directional - which is a key (probably THE key) idea behind the Grafton technique. Also, a percussive gun applied to a new injury would be a bad idea...more trauma/pain. Grafton hurts - in a good way. Percussion hurts in a bad way. I'm still a fan of percussion guns but not in the acute setting. Just my 0.2.
Thank you! I’m now much less annoyed by the vagueness of the word “several” tweeted by the Celtics
Presuming we mean Graston, I don't think a theragun is terribly close. At the least, they are worlds apart in terms of the pain they inflict.
Nothing has ever felt so deliriously good to me as the moment my guy would stop the graston.
Yes! Bad editing on my part. Graston autocorrects to Grayson, grafting and , weirdly dragon. Ha! My bad.
https://x.com/NBAonTNT/status/1785808568349868111
Porzingis expected to miss R2 (obligatory avoid-lightning-bolt "if the Celtics advance")
Porzingis expected to miss R2 (obligatory avoid-lightning-bolt "if the Celtics advance")
View: https://twitter.com/jaredweissnba/status/1786790464244404433?s=46&t=BPOCzlMnie9QX3i9mnMaQw
Worse for sure is not exactly what I wanted to hear rn. I know its wait and see with these things but it's probably not realistic to expect him to be back for the ECF if they get there. They can win that series without it but it's really going to put some strain on my boy Al...
38 days from the date of his injury to the Finals. Rooting for his rehab!
Worse for sure is not exactly what I wanted to hear rn. I know its wait and see with these things but it's probably not realistic to expect him to be back for the ECF if they get there. They can win that series without it but it's really going to put some strain on my boy Al...
38 days from the date of his injury to the Finals. Rooting for his rehab!
Holy shit is this a great post. Explaining this in such technical detail while still being understandable is a special kind of skill.
The followup about percussion guns vs. rolling really explains so much as well, particularly as regards maintenance work vs. acute treatment. Kudos.
Had PT about 11 years ago after a weird fall that caused muscle and fat loss in the lower gluteus/upper ham area. Had a whole boatload of scar tissue. Combination of heat, EMS, grinding with plastic knuckles of some sort and a bunch of hard vertical rolling. The pain involved in working out that scar tissue is special.
lot of PR speak here.... is it "returning at a historic rate" or not?
It will be 3 weeks between the injury and ECF start, I still feel like that's realistic based on "a little bit longer than the [prior calf injury]" which I think was 2 weeks of conservative rest.
It will be 3 weeks between the injury and ECF start, I still feel like that's realistic based on "a little bit longer than the [prior calf injury]" which I think was 2 weeks of conservative rest.
I think this might be ESL stuff here and he means "recovering at about the same rate as has been expected in the past", not "recovering unprecedentedly quickly, as to make history with its speed"
I don’t really think we can take anything from what he said. His prior injury might have been a 10 day thing they were extra cautious for because it was the regular season. 3 weeks is still a lot of time to recover, and he at least appears to be walking normally and will participate in basketball activities Monday.
If they get to the ECF and want to be cautious, maybe they can wait until the Celtics get to 2 losses or something and let him rest longer if not.
Just reading the quotes, sounds like a real MRI positive strain/partial tear (which we kind of knew already). He probably had some soreness earlier in the year with a normal MRI given how quickly he came back and the fact they would have been super conservative.
You can follow up MRI and ultrasound these things every day if you want but in the end it’s mostly a clinical call when to come back.
Yeah, as long as it's not his knee or his Achilles, it's gonna be fine. This won't change his skills or his career longevity. Will help him on recovery from the wear and tear from the season and what might be a long playoff run, too.
I'm happy to let him sit out vs Cleveland. We got him there. We might even got him vs NYK (and I'm not even sure the Pacers would be a good matchup for him, in general). It's the Finals where we'll need the fully operational battle station.
From 5/4 Globe:
(as noted in https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/green-zinger-tea-kristaps-porzingis-2023-24.40818/post-6104524 )
"Porzingis said he rolled his ankle and may have been compensating for that when he injured his calf. He said the injury isn’t as bad as he initially thought, or as bad as it could have been, but he’s “not super close yet.”
So maybe the hyper cautious reaction -- "He is hurt and we are leading by 15... PULL HIM" wasn't so hyper?(as noted in https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/green-zinger-tea-kristaps-porzingis-2023-24.40818/post-6104524 )
As another mD, my opinion is that deer antler spray is the best option for treatment. I will be sending an invoice for that advice tho.
The money involved in sports is so vast, it's almost a little surprising there isn't more far out there, not reasonable for normal people, type of medicine that's done to treat them. You know, I'm talking about like injecting them with some super rare hormone harvested from lion teeth or having them live in hyperoxygenated bubbles or whatever. If there was a way to get his calf to heal 5 days faster than normal, at a cost of $5 million - you'd think the Celtics would pay it, right? Even $10 million for 5 days improvement. We can't come up with a way to heal this stuff 5 days faster even with $10 million? C'mon science!
The money involved in sports is so vast, it's almost a little surprising there isn't more far out there, not reasonable for normal people, type of medicine that's done to treat them. You know, I'm talking about like injecting them with some super rare hormone harvested from lion teeth or having them live in hyperoxygenated bubbles or whatever. If there was a way to get his calf to heal 5 days faster than normal, at a cost of $5 million - you'd think the Celtics would pay it, right? Even $10 million for 5 days improvement. We can't come up with a way to heal this stuff 5 days faster even with $10 million? C'mon science!
But this is pretty solid evidence that such things just don't exist, or maybe there hasn't been enough cumulative money to research any of them for efficacy. Right, it's like the old xkcd about paranormal phenomena. If it was there, you've identified a customer! And the Bucks would've been pushing to the front of the line last week!