Gordon Hayward 2020: C'mon baby, hold together!

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Maybe back off the trade discussion until we know this is serious.

“Toe” doesn’t sound related to the prior break, unless he has nerve damage.
Doesn't have to be nerve damage but changes to the way he runs or jumps could put pressure on joints or other parts near the toe. These kinds of things usually can be addressed though.
 

Jimbodandy

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around the way
Everyone knew that Lil’ Zeke’s hip was a degenerative mess. Cleveland’s only real regret is that they didn’t draft Shae Gilgeous-Alexander with the pick.
Yeah Cleveland got the 8th pick plus stuff for a guy who was shooting his way off of his current NBA team. They didn't get screwed even a little bit.

There may be a trace of a whiff of "I don't know..." around the Cs handling of IT4, but it's not big whatsoever, certainly among professional NBA player personnel people. Numbnuts in the blogosphere aren't the targets of Danny's calls, actual fucking GMs are.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah Cleveland got the 8th pick plus stuff for a guy who was shooting his way off of his current NBA team. They didn't get screwed even a little bit.

There may be a trace of a whiff of "I don't know..." around the Cs handling of IT4, but it's not big whatsoever, certainly among professional NBA player personnel people. Numbnuts in the blogosphere aren't the targets of Danny's calls, actual fucking GMs are.
Yeah, the only people who thought Danny was going to have a hard decision as to whether to max him were the idiot podcasters who kept saying that the Celtics didn't really upgrade in going from IT to Kyrie because muh numberz.

(Yes, Kyrie did do his best towards the end to make it close.)
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah, the only people who thought Danny was going to have a hard decision as to whether to max him were the idiot podcasters who kept saying that the Celtics didn't really upgrade in going from IT to Kyrie because muh numberz.

(Yes, Kyrie did do his best towards the end to make it close.)
Kyrie is clearly the better player, but the numbers cabal were clearly right that his defense cost was analogous to ITs.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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NomarsFool

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I don’t think this is true but, more importantly, think it’s very premature to reach conclusions about the efficacy of a lineup that’s only been used for 5 minutes so far this season.

I fully expect the Celtics, if healthy, to close games small with their 5 best players on the court.
Injuries have of course been a huge factor, but I think Brad doesn't believe he should have those 5 players on the court together at the same time (as evidenced by the 5 minutes). Of course, there are certain situations where they could have one of the wings playing against the other team's center - but these seem to be few and far between. When they have gone small, they have often used Semi or GW to play the 5.
 

nighthob

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Yeah Cleveland got the 8th pick plus stuff for a guy who was shooting his way off of his current NBA team. They didn't get screwed even a little bit.

There may be a trace of a whiff of "I don't know..." around the Cs handling of IT4, but it's not big whatsoever, certainly among professional NBA player personnel people. Numbnuts in the blogosphere aren't the targets of Danny's calls, actual fucking GMs are.
The people concerned about Boston's dealings with Lil' Zeke were other payers wondering if Boston had encouraged him to play on that hip. Cleveland knew that they were only getting Thomas for the playoffs, if at all. For them the prize was the pick that had been top 3 two years running.
 

nighthob

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Also, as far as Hayward is concerned, the only way he opts in is if he's unlikely to play in '21. Otherwise he's going into free agency to lock up his last big payday, and I will be unsurprised when the Warriors make a play for him to create a poor man's version of the Durant era squad.
 

lovegtm

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Also, as far as Hayward is concerned, the only way he opts in is if he's unlikely to play in '21. Otherwise he's going into free agency to lock up his last big payday, and I will be unsurprised when the Warriors make a play for him to create a poor man's version of the Durant era squad.
I basically agree. I think the question here is really: do we think the team has a better chance to win a title in 2020 with Gordon Hayward, or what Gordon Hayward could bring in a trade? If it's the former, you hold him and do some kind of S&T in summer 2020. If the latter, you probably deal him this year.
 

DJnVa

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This team was looking ridiculous with Hayward earlier. His style of play complements the others but he can also go get you 25 points. Trading him in the middle of a season to bring in a big that will have to learn the Celtics defense and making them better than they are with a healthy GH strikes me as an overly optimistic POV.

I understand the contract ramifications--if he leaves we essentially cannot replace him unless he happens to want a team that can do a S&T, but I can't see it happening.

I'm eagerly awaiting the post-trade deadline posts saying some version of "Good lord--why did we ever want to deal him???"
 

HomeRunBaker

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People should get out of the Port Cellar more. There's a whole world of other fora that is available to you. See, for instance, this: https://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/jdm-is-signed-5-years-110-mil.22449/post-2681106
That's all a bunch of gobble gabber (yes I made that up)…….If a Player has a player option the team now has ZERO leverage. If a Team hold a team option the player now has ZERO leverage. This shouldn't be hard to figure out despite how much a team can "hope" the player makes a favorable team decision (which of course would be asinine from the players perspective).


You must be ignoring some of the other sub-fora on this site ;) .
I would highly recommend others to do the same.
 

benhogan

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yea, the player option confuses many baseball fans for whatever reason

thank god the Port Cellar is too clever for that:fonz:


Anyone have any fake trade ideas besides the GSW/DLo/Knicks stuff idea? I feel like the C's are screwed in regards to Gordon.

Side note, when they offer Tatum a MAX deal this Summer, no player options please.
 

InstaFace

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That's all a bunch of gobble gabber (yes I made that up)…….If a Player has a player option the team now has ZERO leverage. If a Team hold a team option the player now has ZERO leverage. This shouldn't be hard to figure out despite how much a team can "hope" the player makes a favorable team decision (which of course would be asinine from the players perspective).
You're not going to believe this, but it turns out that not only do a lot of SoSHers not do so well with what we'd consider basic logic, but also a lot of them become so convinced of their own faulty logic that they will mock, belittle and confidently assert their mistaken views rather than think for 5 seconds when prompted.

That was one of the worst threads in SoSH history for the sheer number of times the same thing had to be said, above the din of people confusedly saying the wrong thing for the 30th time.

Point is: You didn't miss much, just what became a running in-joke.
 

nighthob

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Anyone have any fake trade ideas besides the GSW/DLo/Knicks stuff idea? I feel like the C's are screwed in regards to Gordon.
If Hayward leaves, it's to a contender, and likely one in California (where he lives in the offseason). So I still think that the Warriors are the most likely destination for him next summer, but it will definitely be a three way deal with them unloading DAR on some third team for assets going to Boston. The Clippers have Harrell and Harkless to re-sign (although they'd love the upgrade) and are likely out. As are the Lakers given the LBJ/Unibrower/Danny Green troika.

I suppose that he could try and demand the Bucks, which would require Middleton on the return flight.

Side note, when they offer Tatum a MAX deal this Summer, no player options please.
I'm pretty sure that that's the price of the five year deal.
 

DJnVa

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Hayward listed as questionable for tonight.

Until I hear more I'm taking this as him not reacting all that great to the cortisone shot. We hear all the time that everyone has bumps and bruises and if his toe simply didn't respond to the treatment and it cost him a game, well, hopefully that's all it is.
 

shoelace

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Jun 24, 2019
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Also, as far as Hayward is concerned, the only way he opts in is if he's unlikely to play in '21. Otherwise he's going into free agency to lock up his last big payday, and I will be unsurprised when the Warriors make a play for him to create a poor man's version of the Durant era squad.
Don't you think the Warriors want to see where their pick ends up before they deal for someone like Hayward? Russell and the number 1 overall can probably get you more than that.

I agree that it is likely that Hayward opts out if he is healthy, but what is his market? Most of the teams that project to have cap space, or could create cap space, are bad or more likely to be dreaming on the 2021 class of free agents. Maybe a team like Phoenix could convince itself that Hayward would make them into a legitimate playoff team that could win a round or something, I don't know. Why would any of these other teams tie up their cap space up with a 30 year old player who seems to be a good bet to miss 20-25 games a season at this point in his career?
 

shoelace

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High injury risk you say?

Wrong side of 30?

Good enough to make a bad team mediocre, but not so transcendent that said team can go from bad to contender?

Welcome to Madison Square Garden.
I get the sense that the Knicks specific form of stupidity is that they are delusional (Dolan's band obviously being the ultimate proof of this) and they truly believe in their ability to sign players like Durant and Kyrie. I can't imagine they would throw money at Hayward an offseason before they could convince themselves and their fans that they would be able to sign Giannis and Kawhi, or whatever.
 

NomarsFool

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Historically, I wouldn't think of Hayward as being particularly injury prone. The ankle thing and the pinky thing were in the bucket of fluke injuries, in my opinion. Now, if this foot thing becomes some sort of chronic injury that requires missing every 4th game - ala Al Horford's bad knees - that would make him a serious question mark. I think it all depends on how he plays the rest of this year. If he plays the rest of this season like he did for the first ten games, I think he opts out and he'll sign a max extension somewhere - either with the Celtics or somewhere else. From the C's perspective, I think they would most likely sign him because if he opts out and leaves - it doesn't free them up money to sign someone else, as far as I understand it. If they could do a S&T for someone like KAT, that would be phenomenal - but that's a complete dream. Or if Lebron and Anthony Davis have a big falling out and we S&T with each other that would be the ultimate.
 

DJnVa

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Historically, I wouldn't think of Hayward as being particularly injury prone. The ankle thing and the pinky thing were in the bucket of fluke injuries, in my opinion. Now, if this foot thing becomes some sort of chronic injury that requires missing every 4th game - ala Al Horford's bad knees - that would make him a serious question mark.
FWIW, most of us wanted Horford back even with that.
 

nighthob

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Don't you think the Warriors want to see where their pick ends up before they deal for someone like Hayward? Russell and the number 1 overall can probably get you more than that.
What does their draft pick have to do with them signing him this summer?
 

shoelace

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What does their draft pick have to do with them signing him this summer?
If they’re going to use Russell’s salary slot for a trade, why wouldn’t they aim higher than Gordon Hayward? They could almost certainly trade Russell and potentially the number one overall pick for something better than Hayward.
 

nighthob

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If they’re going to use Russell’s salary slot for a trade, why wouldn’t they aim higher than Gordon Hayward? They could almost certainly trade Russell and potentially the number one overall pick for something better than Hayward.
How many other borderline all star free agent Fs do you anticipate being available for them to execute a sign & trade for this July? They aren't getting Giannis, Embiid, or KATman for Russell and a player that's nigh on 100% certain to never hit those production levels. On the other hand, Russell could net them Hayward this summer if there were a team stupid enough to give up real assets for him (*cough* Knicks *cough*).
 

lovegtm

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How many other borderline all star free agent Fs do you anticipate being available for them to execute a sign & trade for this July? They aren't getting Giannis, Embiid, or KATman for Russell and a player that's nigh on 100% certain to never hit those production levels. On the other hand, Russell could net them Hayward this summer if there were a team stupid enough to give up real assets for him (*cough* Knicks *cough*).
Yeah, people are really underselling Hayward imo, as long as the foot isn't a thing. He's looked great this year. The reason to trade him would have nothing to do with his talent, but more with his age and the team's salary structure and positional need. For a team like GS or Houston or Portland, he's worlds better than any of the other alternatives (if foot is fine) and fits their timeline perfectly.
 

benhogan

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How many other borderline all star free agent Fs do you anticipate being available for them to execute a sign & trade for this July? They aren't getting Giannis, Embiid, or KATman for Russell and a player that's nigh on 100% certain to never hit those production levels. On the other hand, Russell could net them Hayward this summer if there were a team stupid enough to give up real assets for him (*cough* Knicks *cough*).
This is the NBA, where change happens, players get moved...I'm not going to speculate on who will be available but there will be several options for GSW to consider this summer
 

TripleOT

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I'm ready to move on from Hayward if they can get any kind of big man help to win this season and/or next, for a few reasons.

The team can not win regarding Hayward's health. If he continues to miss games, they don't have the benefit of his play, which was excellent in 11 games so far, and they will be stuck paying another $30+ million to him next season. If he manages to get back onto the court and plays well for few months and in the playoffs, he sets himself up for another big contract, either with Boston or elsewhere, where they many not get anything back in return. Once Tatum is maxed or near maxed, the Cs will have around $100 million in three wings if they re-up GH
Add in Kemba, and they're over $130 million without paying a big.

They have enough (soon to be high cost) wing firepower in Tatum and Brown. There's no reason they can't be bumped up to 37-38 mpg the next five seasons as they grow up into their prime as two of the best five or six wings in the entire league. I'd rather have a low cost, lunch pail three and D wing to play with them and use the money that would have gone to GH elsewhere. Although the Pistons were trash, we saw last night what Brown and Tatum can do when getting a lot of touches. They will need to take 18 shots a game, and so will Kemba.

If Hayward was healthy, having three dynamite wings balling out every night would be great, especially in today's NBA where wing play is so important. They all are team oriented, play defense, and can pass the basketball. But he's not healthy, and hasn't played more than one decent stretch of good basketball, almost two and a half seasons into his big four year deal.

For future seasons, the Celtics can draft a lower cost third wing with the Memphis, or trade for one, or develop Romeo. I like the idea of an impact, rookie scale wing joining the Jays for three or four years of their prime. With the trading deadline in six weeks, GH would need to get on the court and play well for much of it to have any real trade value, except as a possible expiring deal.
 

nighthob

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This is the NBA, where change happens, players get moved...I'm not going to speculate on who will be available but there will be several options for GSW to consider this summer
Yeah, there’s no way that Minnesota, Milwaukee, or Philly decide that saving the Warriors is so important that they have to immediately break up their contender and trade their MVP candidate for someone that will never be as good and the cotton candy of NBA guards. I mean if they want to just go the rebuild on the fly road they can simply deal Russell for Knicks picks.

But I suspect that they’ll want to remove the stink of the tank season from their new venue and that they’re going to be aggressive in free agency this summer (because for the 73rd time, I’m not discussing a trade this year, I’m discussing Golden State re-tooling this summer since Russell’s contract gives them the ability to make a max signing).
 

benhogan

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Yeah, there’s no way that Minnesota, Milwaukee, or Philly decide that saving the Warriors is so important that they have to immediately break up their contender and trade their MVP candidate for someone that will never be as good and the cotton candy of NBA guards. I mean if they want to just go the rebuild on the fly road they can simply deal Russell for Knicks picks.

But I suspect that they’ll want to remove the stink of the tank season from their new venue and that they’re going to be aggressive in free agency this summer (because for the 73rd time, I’m not discussing a trade this year, I’m discussing Golden State re-tooling this summer since Russell’s contract gives them the ability to make a max signing).
Agreed, GSW will be ALL IN next season and will trade the cotton candy of PGs in DLo for a better fit. AND a healthy, Utah Gordon fits that bill.

The best thing for the Celtics would be for Gordon to get healthy, play lights out this season, which would lead him to opt-out. If Danny can move Gordon to GSW this Summer in a 3-way with D.Lo going to the: Knicks, Hawks, Cavs or Grizz for some picks/youngsters going to Boston sign me up since its better then nothing.

BUT some teams will blow up their current roster plus Ben Simmons, Brad Beal, Blake Griffin, Jrue Holiday, KAT, etc all have "demand to be traded" potential. Who knows? Guys want to win rings and teaming up with Steph/Dray/Klay/Kerr provides that opportunity. I just believe GSW will have several options.
 

nighthob

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Agreed, GSW will be ALL IN next season and will trade the cotton candy of PGs in DLo for a better fit. AND a healthy, Utah Gordon fits that bill.
I’ve said this for a while, that I expect him to be a top target of the Warriors next summer. Hayward’s going to be the top guy going to market this summer, so he’s opting out. That goes without saying.

BUT some teams will blow up their current roster plus Ben Simmons, Brad Beal, Blake Griffin, Jrue Holiday, KAT, etc all have "demand to be traded" potential. Who knows? Guys want to win rings and teaming up with Steph/Dray/Klay/Kerr provides that opportunity. I just believe GSW will have several options.
Minnesota has KATman for 4.5 more years, Philly has Simmons locked up for 5.5 years. They’re not going anywhere anytime soon unless someone can make a godfather offer (as in more than the Lakers or Clippers just made). The Warriors don’t have that ammo. Jrue and Beal really don’t fit Golden State’s needs (especially as the odds favor the Warriors drafting a G this June).
 

Sam Ray Not

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Who knew this was the Warriors 2020-21 roster thread? I should just follow Ben Hogan, who always seems to be looking out for my team (when he’s not reminiscing about his nine majors).

On topic, I’m definitely intrigued by Hayward, who checks a lot of the right boxes for GS: versatile 6-8 forward in his late prime who can guard multiple positions and also be a primary offensive creator, allowing the Splash Brothers to wreak havoc off ball. He seems like a less snug fit on the Cs, who already have two blossoming star wings, neither of whom is a pure catch and shoot guy like Klay. And as great a shooter as Kemba is, he’s not nearly as devastating moving around off the ball as Steph is.

A healthy Steph-Klay-Hayward-Green seems like a pretty great start to a redemption title run; and assuming DLo alone were all that was going out to fetch GH, they’d still have a bunch of assets/talent with which to supplement them (a top 5-ish draft pick, Looney on a cheap deal, Paschall and Spellman on super cheap deals, Sky Bowman, Alen Larry Bird Smailagic, the $17M trade exception from Iguodala, e.g.)

Obviously the pipe dream remains Giannis, but that assumes he forces his way to GS a la AD to LA, and there’s no indication that’s happening. Marginally more realistic is Ben Simmons, who will never be a great fit with Embiid, and is a perfect fit with Splash Bros, but who knows how Philly feels about DLo. Absent those two fantasies, I think GS could do a lot worse than Hayward.

To the extent that Coach Buttigieg’s personal affection for Hayward makes them disinclined to move him, you have to think he’d feel less bad about sending him to a ready-made contender with a great coach in sunny CA than he would shipping him off to some hoops gulag.
 
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nighthob

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I didn't say that, but come on, admit that what's going on there isn't working.
Sure, and eventually they’ll trade Andrew Wiggins and get better. But they aren’t unloading KATman for pennies on the dollar to build around Wiggins.
 

benhogan

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Who knew this was the Warriors 2020-21 roster thread? I should just follow Ben Hogan, who always seems to be looking out for my team (when he’s not reminiscing about his nine majors).

On topic, I’m definitely intrigued by Hayward, who checks a lot of the right boxes for GS: versatile 6-8 forward in his late prime who can guard multiple positions and also be a primary offensive creator, allowing the Splash Brothers to wreak havoc off ball. He seems like a less snug fit on the Cs, who already have two blossoming star wings, neither of whom is a pure catch and shoot guy like Klay. And as great a shooter as Kemba is, he’s not nearly as devastating moving around off the ball as Steph is.

A healthy Steph-Klay-Hayward-Green seems like a pretty great start to a redemption title run; and assuming DLo alone were all that was going out to fetch GH, they’d still have a bunch of assets/talent with which to supplement them (a top 5-ish draft pick, Looney on a cheap deal, Paschall and Spellman on super cheap deals, Sky Bowman, Alen Larry Bird Smailagic, the $17M trade exception from Iguodala, e.g.)

Obviously the pipe dream remains Giannis, but that assumes he forces his way to GS a la AD to LA, and there’s no indication that’s happening. Marginally more realistic is Ben Simmons, who will never be a great fit with Embiid, and is a perfect fit with Splash Bros, but who knows how Philly feels about DLo. Absent those two fantasies, I think GS could do a lot worse than Hayward.

To the extent that Coach Buttigieg’s personal affection for Hayward makes them disinclined to move him, you have to think he’d feel less bad about sending him to a ready-made contender with a great coach in sunny CA than he would shipping him off to some hoops gulag.
The Warriors are interesting since they have plenty of fungible assets, a season to let them marinate and motivation to move them at seasons end. Plus two HOFers coming back refreshed/motivated for one last 2yr run. Utah Gordon would be nice but believe Ben Simmons is the whale they land. Klay/Steph can attempt to teach the coward the finer points of the 3pt shot.

Their final hurrah will coincide with the early part of the Celtics 5yr Finals run led by the leapin' Jays. :redwine:
 

nighthob

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The Warriors are interesting since they have plenty of fungible assets, a season to let them marinate and motivation to move them at seasons end. Plus two HOFers coming back refreshed/motivated for one last 2yr run. Utah Gordon would be nice but believe Ben Simmons is the whale they land. Klay/Steph can attempt to teach the coward the finer points of the 3pt shot.

Their final hurrah will coincide with the early part of the Celtics 5yr Finals run led by the leapin' Jays. :redwine:
If Philly puts Ben Simmons on the market they can do light years better than D’Angelo Russell and a top 5ish pick.
 

Big John

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You misconstrued my post. Simmons is overrated. Can't shoot. I'd rather have Zach LaVine (among others). Do you think the Bulls would trade LaVine for DAR and a top 5 pick? I bet they would.
 

benhogan

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If Philly puts Ben Simmons on the market they can do light years better than D’Angelo Russell and a top 5ish pick.
I didn't say Philly was putting him on the market? nor did I say DLo/5ish pick?

Nothing is happening with GSW, as far as trades, until the summer. AND a lot of random events can happen between now and then (injuries, team underperformance, teammates not jelling, etc).

As we have seen numerous times with agents (Rich Paul in particular), players, and teams looking to win now ALL can dictate player movement. Saying there is a -3857% chance that Ben Simmons is not a 76er next season when you haven't seen how this season has played out is beyond silly.
 
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nighthob

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I didn't say Philly was putting him on the market? nor did I say DLo/5ish pick?

Nothing is happening with GSW, as far as trades, until the summer. AND a lot of random events can happen between now and then (injuries, team underperformance, teammates not jelling, etc).
You literally said this...

The Warriors are interesting since they have plenty of fungible assets, a season to let them marinate and motivation to move them at seasons end. Plus two HOFers coming back refreshed/motivated for one last 2yr run. Utah Gordon would be nice but believe Ben Simmons is the whale they land. Klay/Steph can attempt to teach the coward the finer points of the 3pt shot.
I’m not sure how else you expect us to interpret that other than a prediction that Philly agrees help the Warriors rebuild as a favor.

As we have seen numerous times with agents (Rich Paul in particular), players, and teams looking to win now ALL can dictate player movement. Saying there is a -3857% chance that Ben Simmons is not a 76er next season when you haven't seen how this season has played out is beyond silly.
Is Ben Simmons planning on feigning injury for the next five years? Oh, and not getting paid because he’s holding out? And not getting paid by whatever team Philly trades him to for failing to report? Yeah, not happening. If Rich Paul is demanding the Sixers give Ben Simmons away, he’s going to demand that they give him away to the Lakers, not some team that doesn’t employ him. ;)