#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Ed Hillel

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soxhop411 said:
“@tomecurran: NFL's Greg Aiello on NFL ball investigation: "It will take as long as necessary so we cannot put a timetable on it. The review is underway."”
 
They can't sit down and map this out and come up with a reasonable time frame? There are like 5 people you'll need to talk with here, and you have the balls. Why should this take more than a day or two?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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soxhop411 said:
“@tomecurran: NFL's Greg Aiello on NFL ball investigation: "It will take as long as necessary so we cannot put a timetable on it. The review is underway."”
 
Basically, they're going to let their buddies in the media and on the networks have a field day with this story because it drives ratings and clicks, then a few months from now the investigation will close and we'll find out that a few of the balls appeared to be underinflated during the game but they never measured them (so they can't prove they were underinflated) and they have no evidence regarding why or how they got underinflated (dastardly Patriots or natural causes).  And for years to come idiots in the media (and on internet message boards) will take the position that, "It was never proven that the Patriots weren't cheating during Inflategate!"
 

Dewey's Stance

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I still don't understand how this is a story considering the footballs are checked 2.5 hours prior to the game by refs and marked. The balls are then given to the team's ball attendant. Lazy media and referenced gm and assistant coaches think the Patriots should "be nailed," because the ball attendant deflated the balls?! Really?! Isn't this the only way these balls could have been deflated. The only cogent explanation for the Pats using deflated balls is that the team inflated the balls at the minimum requirement of 12.5 psi knowing that in the cold weather the balls would lose pressure. This would of course be within the rules as the balls met league specifications prior to the game as they were checked. What the fuck?!
 

soxhop411

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Ed Hillel said:
 
They can't sit down and map this out and come up with a reasonable time frame? There are like 5 people you'll need to talk with here, and you have the balls. Why should this take more than a day or two?
Because the NFL is incompetent
 

CoffeeNerdness

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"Mike Wilbon says the Patriots should be banned from the Superbowl.  Up next Stephen A. and Skip debate Mike's controversial comments."
 

B H Kim

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Mystic Merlin said:
I'd like to hear what Andrew Luck or the Indy center thinks.  They handled the ball, what, 40-50 times?
Once again, each team supplies its own set of balls for use on offense.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Ah, I stand corrected.  My bad.
 
Is D'Qwell Jackson around?
 
But, seriously, who else could possibly have a legitimate opinion on this other than the officials who handled all of these balls?
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Mystic Merlin said:
I'd like to hear what Andrew Luck or the Indy center thinks.  They handled the ball, what, 40-50 times?
No, they didnt.  Posted umpteen times already that each team provides its own separate supply of game balls. (albeit, that wasnt clear/comfirmed in the first few hours of this great national crisis).
 
OMG, it just hit me:  is it just a coincidence that the same guy intercepted passes and then "noticed" and "complained" both in game 11 and again last night about the deflation.  It's right out of a Columbo mystery movie:  Mike Adams is the one deflating the Pats balls, and then "accusing" the Pats of the deflation to jam up the Pats.  How did I not see that sooner......
 

Silverdude2167

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soxhop411 said:
“@tomecurran: NFL's Greg Aiello on NFL ball investigation: "It will take as long as necessary so we cannot put a timetable on it. The review is underway."”
You have the damn balls, weight them and tell us if there is an issue. I mean that is all that needs to be done.
 

Scriblerus

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Ferm Sheller said:
Which is the dumbest thing ever, right?
This is the part that gets me.  The NFL has changed the rules of the game to accommodate offense, protect the QB and receivers because fans like TDs.  Each QB gets his own footballs so they can feel even more comfortable and hopefully score even more points.  Now, we get this and it's an outrage?  If anything, they should allow the ball to be flat if it will allow for points, right?
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I'm pretty sure game balls from this (and every) game immediately go on public sale at the low low price of $4,999.99 each on the NFL's website as soon as the game is over, so if we can raise the cash, we can do the research ourselves.
 

SumnerH

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Ferm Sheller said:
Which is the dumbest thing ever, right?
Ehh. Different QBs like the ball prepared different ways. I could see saying "tough luck, we use balls that are standardized in manner X", but allowing some personal prep within the rules isn't the dumbest thing ever--especially because unlike the NBA or hockey, you're not constantly handing the same ball/puck back and forth between teams.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Just adding on:
 
1) I can't imagine that anybody checks the ball pressure during the game.  So even if some balls were taken out of play out of concern they weren't properly inflated, can there really be any evidence that it was under 12.5 psi?
 
2) As I understand it, based on my rudimentary science knowledge, the pressure of the air in a ball will decrease as the temperature of that air decreases.  So if you inflate a ball to 12.5 psi and then check that air pressure inside (where I imagine the refs do it), then you bring that ball outside, then scientifically the expectation should be that the pressure of the ball will go below 12.5 psi once the air inside cools to match the temperature of the outdoor environment.  This is in addition to whatever decreases in pressure might be caused by usage.  Essentially, even if you measured the balls and found them below 12.5 psi during the game, that wouldn't be indicative of deflation or even a flaw in the ball.  Its just indicative of science.
 
It seems like a situation where it will be impossible to prove any kind of wrongdoing by the Patriots short of a true smoking gun where they corner the ball attendant and he admits that, yes, the diabolical Ernie Adams payed him two grand to sneak the balls behind the stadium and let a little air out during halftime.
 

Kevin Youkulele

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Dewey's Stance said:
I still don't understand how this is a story considering the footballs are checked 2.5 hours prior to the game by refs and marked. The balls are then given to the team's ball attendant. Lazy media and referenced gm and assistant coaches think the Patriots should "be nailed," because the ball attendant deflated the balls?! Really?! Isn't this the only way these balls could have been deflated. The only cogent explanation for the Pats using deflated balls is that the team inflated the balls at the minimum requirement of 12.5 psi knowing that in the cold weather the balls would lose pressure. This would of course be within the rules as the balls met league specifications prior to the game as they were checked. What the fuck?!
You're expecting sports media to understand the interplay between gas temperature and pressure?
 
If this is indeed what happened, and it seems plausible, then there really should be nothing to penalize.  Where was the illegal act?  The balls would have been within spec while under the Patriots' control.  What happens later by operation of physics is not their problem.  The ref can and did toss balls that became underinflated.  
 

8slim

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Dewey said:
I still don't understand how this is a story considering the footballs are checked 2.5 hours prior to the game by refs and marked. The balls are then given to the team's ball attendant. Lazy media and referenced gm and assistant coaches think the Patriots should "be nailed," because the ball attendant deflated the balls?! Really?! Isn't this the only way these balls could have been deflated. The only cogent explanation for the Pats using deflated balls is that the team inflated the balls at the minimum requirement of 12.5 psi knowing that in the cold weather the balls would lose pressure. This would of course be within the rules as the balls met league specifications prior to the game as they were checked. What the fuck?!
The last part intrigues me. Do footballs lose pressure in colder conditions? If so, and if the rules are simply that a ball can not be lower than 12.5 at the 2.5 hour checkpoint before kickoff, then wouldn't this be no different that a boxer making weight 24 hours befor a fight and then adding weight before the first bell sounds?
 

Ferm Sheller

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SumnerH said:
Ehh. Different QBs like the ball prepared different ways. I could see saying "tough luck, we use balls that are standardized in manner X", but allowing some personal prep within the rules isn't the dumbest thing ever--especially because unlike the NBA or hockey, you're not constantly handing the same ball/puck back and forth between teams.
Which is fine, but the balls should be inspected and approved before the game by an official and then stored during the game in such a way that they can't be tampered with.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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CantKeepmedown said:
Jesus, this just hit the national news.  "Did the Patriots cheat their way into the Super Bowl?"
 
To be fair, the dominant OL, DL, secondary, running game, and short passing game all pretty clearly owe their success to flat balls.
 
edit: Forgot about Special Teams. Flat balls clearly made the difference there too.
 

Ed Hillel

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I'm not even sure why the NFL allows the teams to provide balls anyway. Can they not afford footballs? I'm sure this probably ends with that rule being changed, which will be attributed to the Patriots. Football rule changed because Cheatriots, etc, even if this accusation is later proven false. 
 

Cabin Mirror

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Scriblerus said:
This is the part that gets me.  The NFL has changed the rules of the game to accommodate offense, protect the QB and receivers because fans like TDs.  Each QB gets his own footballs so they can feel even more comfortable and hopefully score even more points.  Now, we get this and it's an outrage?  If anything, they should allow the ball to be flat if it will allow for points, right?
I'm still struggling to see what the advantage would be. Easier to throw in rain if deflated? But as you say, they let each team scuff, rough, and condition the balls to their QB's liking, so what if it's a little flatter? How is that materially different from scuffing and roughing them? Do they have specs for how roughed up the ball can be? Are there stipulations like, "no scuff mark shall be greater than .15mm deep" or "teams may not rough the ball so hard that any labels wear off" or "balls shall not be refrigerated (would drop the pressure right)" ?
 

Harry Hooper

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Ed Hillel said:
I'm not even sure why the NFL allows the teams to provide balls anyway. Can they not afford footballs? I'm sure this probably ends with that rule being changed, which will be attributed to the Patriots. Football rule changed because Cheatriots, etc, even if this accusation is later proven false. 
 
Likely that's exactly where this is headed.
 

koufax32

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Dewey's Stance said:
I still don't understand how this is a story considering the footballs are checked 2.5 hours prior to the game by refs and marked. The balls are then given to the team's ball attendant. Lazy media and referenced gm and assistant coaches think the Patriots should "be nailed," because the ball attendant deflated the balls?! Really?! Isn't this the only way these balls could have been deflated. The only cogent explanation for the Pats using deflated balls is that the team inflated the balls at the minimum requirement of 12.5 psi knowing that in the cold weather the balls would lose pressure. This would of course be within the rules as the balls met league specifications prior to the game as they were checked. What the fuck?!
So they technically didn't break the rules. But their actions were unethical.
/Doyel

Seems like this is the best and simplest explanation as it would also cover the game from earlier I the season. Somewhere Billy Martin I smiling at all of this while George Brett is shaking his head.
 

SumnerH

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Cabin Mirror said:
I'm still struggling to see what the advantage would be. Easier to throw in rain if deflated? But as you say, they let each team scuff, rough, and condition the balls to their QB's liking, so what if it's a little flatter? How is that materially different from scuffing and roughing them? Do they have specs for how roughed up the ball can be? Are there stipulations like, "no scuff mark shall be greater than .15mm deep" or "teams may not rough the ball so hard that any labels wear off" or "balls shall not be refrigerated (would drop the pressure right)" ?
They're not allowed to heat or cool the balls. There was a game (Panthers at Minnesota) where this came up this season.
http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/11218/nfl-aware-of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings
 

8slim

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That the NFL allows every team to "prepare" the dozen football used in each game is evidence enough as to why this league is incapable of conspiracy. Let's dispense with the notion that the NFL is actively and consciously prolongimg this story for some purpose. They are not competent enough to do that.

If the past 8 months have taught us anything it's that the NFL is a mom-and-pop operation masquerading as a multi-billion dollar enterprise.
 

Norm Siebern

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I cannot believe this has become something. Yes. A football's psi may have been impacted during a game played outdoors in a driving rainstorm in cold weather in the Northeast in January.

Prima facie evidence of cheating. Jesus Christ.
 

ColoradoJack

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In a former life I was the equipment manager for a friend's high school football team. Even at that level, the footballs are checked pregame and the ones found insufficient are thrown out and not used. Happens all the time. In addition, I would say that the footballs are handled by at least 2 officials every play. If one is found too flat (or whatever) it is thrown out. No big deal. Although footballs lose pressure regardless of weather conditions, the cold is, of course, a major factor.
 
This is a non issue. Carry on citizens.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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Harry Hooper said:
 
Likely that's exactly where this is headed.
So is it going to be like a bill/budget going thru Congress, with multiple totally unrelated items included under a single umbrella, so that everything passes:  clarification of eligible and ineligible receivers AND new non-tampering safeguards of game balls?
 

mascho

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Does Obama address this tomorrow night in his State of the Union?
 
Will a properly inflated football be seated next to the First Lady in the balcony?
 
This is a national crisis people. 
 

Kull

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Cabin Mirror said:
I'm still struggling to see what the advantage would be. Easier to throw in rain if deflated? But as you say, they let each team scuff, rough, and condition the balls to their QB's liking, so what if it's a little flatter? How is that materially different from scuffing and roughing them? Do they have specs for how roughed up the ball can be? Are there stipulations like, "no scuff mark shall be greater than .15mm deep" or "teams may not rough the ball so hard that any labels wear off" or "balls shall not be refrigerated (would drop the pressure right)" ?
 
No scuffing. Rubbing with water and rags and perhaps Giselle's special fluids and that's about it. The refs check them even after this treatment to make sure. Edit: Somebody posted the exact details way back in the bowels of this thread
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Ed Hillel said:
I'm not even sure why the NFL allows the teams to provide balls anyway. Can they not afford footballs? I'm sure this probably ends with that rule being changed, which will be attributed to the Patriots. Football rule changed because Cheatriots, etc, even if this accusation is later proven false. 
 
Because each team prepares them according to how their QB likes them prepared
 
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure they get checked indoors so the temperature differential would still be substantial.
 
Then this would be a problem for a very healthy percentage of games, as it's usually colder during an NFL game than 70 degrees.
 

Scriblerus

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Why has nobody talked to...oh, I don't know...the officials?  They pulled the ball from the game, as I assume they do in many games, so let's hear from them.  They handle the ball in between every play, often times catching it when tossed to them by a player.  If the balls were so deflated, wouldn't they know?  
 
This is absurd, and the only reason it is bothering me so much is because it's an issue solely because the Patriots are involved.
 

NomosRubber

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Mystic Merlin said:
Ah, I stand corrected.  My bad.
 
Is D'Qwell Jackson around?
 
But, seriously, who else could possibly have a legitimate opinion on this other than the officials who handled all of these balls?
 
Pretty sure every Colts player grabbed the Pats balls (pun intended) once they slapped or pulled it from a Patriots player after the whistle to end every play.  Lots of players besides the refs could have observed this.  Apparently none of them, none of the refs, and only one player made a deal of it.  Balls couldn't have been out of spec by much.
 

theapportioner

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Mark Schofield said:
Does Obama address this tomorrow night in his State of the Union?
 
Will a properly inflated football be seated next to the First Lady in the balcony?
 
This is a national crisis people. 
 
Obama will make sure that Bill get the waterboarding and rectal feeding treatment for this assault on America.
 

Myt1

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
The NFL needs to come down on the Patriots here.  They have been playing dirty since Kraft bought the team.  The integrity of the NFL is at stake.
Everything that you post sucks.
 

soxin6

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Scriblerus said:
Why has nobody talked to...oh, I don't know...the officials?  They pulled the ball from the game, as I assume they do in many games, so let's hear from them.  They handle the ball in between every play, often times catching it when tossed to them by a player.  If the balls were so deflated, wouldn't they know?  
 
This is absurd, and the only reason it is bothering me so much is because it's an issue solely because the Patriots are involved.
 
Because finding the truth doesn't matter.
 

Harry Hooper

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8slim said:
If the past 8 months have taught us anything it's that the NFL is a mom-and-pop operation masquerading as a multi-billion dollar enterprise.
 
Right, just add in the government enlisted to protect mom and pop from competition.