Damien Harris tees off on BB over 2022 offense

Eddie Jurak

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View: https://twitter.com/lostalkspats/status/1798788691655315502?s=46&t=LP8gEhEZKXGKYp3VJskNKA

Former #Patriots RB Damien Harris says Bill Belichick being “stuck in his ways” caused Mac Jones to fail in New England.

“What happened to Mac Jones in New England, was not because of Mac Jones… (it) was because of the fact you took away an offensive coordinator who coached him to be a Pro-Bowler and almost coached us to winning our division. With a rookie quarterback… then you take Matt Patricia who’s coached defense his entire life. Joe Judge who’s been a special teams coach… and then you just throw them in there and say, ‘Hey, coach this kid up. He’s a first round pick, but as long as you teach him what I say, everything gonna be fine.’

S**t wasn’t fine. Now Mac Jones is in Jacksonville… the breath of Mac Jones in New England — it came and went. It shouldn’t have (gone) the way that it went. The only reason that it did was because Bill Belichick, being stuck in his ways, was very much so ‘As long as I am here. As long as I am, along with Robert Kraft, the top dog at this organization… we will have success.’

I think that started kinda was this Cam Newton situation… everybody was like, ‘What the f**ck is this? Why Cam Newton?’ Bill thought that he could make it work. It didn’t really work. Then we drafted Mac. We had a hell of a year… went on to win seven straight. At that time we were kinda looking at ourselves like we might have a Super Bowl run here…

then the next year after that you replace… Josh McDaniels with Matt Patricia and Joe Judge and then look at the year we had that year… now Mac Jones is all of a sudden gone. I think that everybody can look at what I just said. And ultimately, just watch it for what it was and kinda say that maybe Bill Belichick did not do right by Mac Jones.”

Wow
 

Captaincoop

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If he looked at his 2021 Patriots team and thought it was on the verge of a Super Bowl run, that tells me how seriously I need to take anything this guy says.
 

Dollar

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“What happened to Mac Jones in New England, was not because of Mac Jones… (it) was because of the fact you took away an offensive coordinator who coached him to be a Pro-Bowler and almost coached us to winning our division. With a rookie quarterback…
So it wasn't because of BB, it was because of McDaniels leaving? That sounds closer to the truth... but it was mostly because of Mac Jones.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Harris is the first player who has spoken out openly about the 2022 fiasco.

It is a bit much to say that others are solely to blame for Mac's problems. But the idea that BB could stick a defensive coordinator in charge of the offense, revamp the teams whole approach, etc... it was always a dumb idea.
 

tims4wins

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If he looked at his 2021 Patriots team and thought it was on the verge of a Super Bowl run, that tells me how seriously I need to take anything this guy says.
They were in 1st place in the AFC and were beating good teams as of like December 1.
 
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It's not totally wrong, what he's saying, but the fact is Mac's trajectory began pointing down during the second half of his rookie season when the Patriots began to face better teams and the league got regular-season film on Mac.
 

Steve Dillard

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So we’ll see a huge rebound from Jones this year.

edit: two things can be true at the same time. Jones is not the Qb Harris thinks but that team was not as talented as Harris thinks and BB as coach/gm screwed him.
 
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Moonlight Graham

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This was the best football offseason podcast I've heard this year. That's a very low bar, I know, but still. He sounded like a smart, well-balanced guy who had a lot of interesting things to say about the run game (such as specifics about the differences in the ways RBs and OLs are coached) and also interesting opinions on the difference in organizational structures during his time in NE and Buffalo. It was only a little about Mac. He was complimentary of BB numerous times but highly critical of BB's decision to go with Patricia and Judge, completely torpedoing the entire offense from the onset.
 

Salem's Lot

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It's not totally wrong, what he's saying, but the fact is Mac's trajectory began pointing down during the second half of his rookie season when the Patriots began to face better teams and the league got regular-season film on Mac.
I’ve never seen a guy completely changed after getting hit hard once like Mac did.
 

Jungleland

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Mac threw for 3 TDs en route to a 50-10 win over the Jaguars in the second to last game of his rookie regular season. The Mac completely fell off in the second half of his rookie year argument is iffy - they just started playing better teams.

That said, he sucks at football and Matt Patricia as OC was in the top 3 worst decisions Bill made in New England. Both can be true. (I also think it's unfair to frame things as taking away McDaniels, he left of his own accord. Water under the bridge at this point.)
 

tims4wins

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That team was very far away from contending for anything.
In retrospect yes. Coming out of the bye that year I think we were all pretty damn optimistic. Like I’d be hard pressed to find a negative take when they were 9-4 having beaten the Titans and Bills in back to back weeks.
 
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Mac threw for 3 TDs en route to a 50-10 win over the Jaguars in the second to last game of his rookie regular season. The Mac completely fell off in the second half of his rookie year argument is iffy - they just started playing better teams.

That said, he sucks at football and Matt Patricia as OC was in the top 3 worst decisions Bill made in New England. Both can be true. (I also think it's unfair to frame things as taking away McDaniels, he left of his own accord. Water under the bridge at this point.)
The jags were terrible at that point. They started playing better teams was my point and was included in the post. That they faced a crappy Jax team toward the end of 2022 fits the argument, it doesn't dispel it. IOW, I think we agree.
 

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View: https://twitter.com/lostalkspats/status/1798788691655315502?s=46&t=LP8gEhEZKXGKYp3VJskNKA

Former #Patriots RB Damien Harris says Bill Belichick being “stuck in his ways” caused Mac Jones to fail in New England.

“What happened to Mac Jones in New England, was not because of Mac Jones… (it) was because of the fact you took away an offensive coordinator
who coached him to be a Pro-Bowler and almost coached us to winning our division. With a rookie quarterback… then you take Matt Patricia who’s coached defense his entire life. Joe Judge who’s been a special teams coach… and then you just throw them in there and say, ‘Hey, coach this kid up. He’s a first round pick, but as long as you teach him what I say, everything gonna be fine.’

S**t wasn’t fine. Now Mac Jones is in Jacksonville… the breath of Mac Jones in New England — it came and went. It shouldn’t have (gone) the way that it went. The only reason that it did was because Bill Belichick, being stuck in his ways, was very much so ‘As long as I am here. As long as I am, along with Robert Kraft, the top dog at this organization… we will have success.’

I think that started kinda was this Cam Newton situation… everybody was like, ‘What the f**ck is this? Why Cam Newton?’ Bill thought that he could make it work. It didn’t really work. Then we drafted Mac. We had a hell of a year… went on to win seven straight. At that time we were kinda looking at ourselves like we might have a Super Bowl run here…

then the next year after that you replace… Josh McDaniels with Matt Patricia and Joe Judge and then look at the year we had that year… now Mac Jones is all of a sudden gone. I think that everybody can look at what I just said. And ultimately, just watch it for what it was and kinda say that maybe Bill Belichick did not do right by Mac Jones.”

Wow[/B]
Which Offensive Coordinator did Bekichick take away? Nobody can defend Patricia but Harris needs to get his facts straight (or correct me I suppose).
 

Garshaparra

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Which Offensive Coordinator did Bekichick take away? Nobody can defend Patricia but Harris needs to get his facts straight (or correct me I suppose).
"Take away" surely seems like misstatement. McDaniels went to get the big bag in Las Vegas, so he wasn't sticking around. The question then would be who in 2022 have stepped into his shoes as OC. Starting with the 2021 staff:
  • Ivan Fears was deeply respected, but clearly headed to retirement.
  • Mick Lombardi and Bo Hardegree left with McDaniels.
  • Nick Caley held over into 2022, but kept the same job. He left after 2022, and was apparently offered the OC role under Mayo this offseason, but turned it down.
Typically, fired head coaches become OC candidates. There wasn't much out there though. Here's who was fired in 2021 (we won't count Payton, who left on his own, and wasn't about to be anyone's OC):
  • Matt Nagy - former OC, but immediately returned to KC to rejoin their offensive staff after his firing
  • Mike Zimmer - former DC
  • Brian Flores - former DC
  • Joe Judge - former STC
  • David Culley - numerous offensive coach roles
  • Vic Fangio - former DC
  • Jon Gruden - right back into cushy retirement
  • Urban Meyer - ...we're good, thanks.
So really, other than Culley (in his mid-60s), there really wasn't a good fallback option amongst the ex-HCs. The OC market was also somewhat needy, with Daboll, Pederson, O'Connell and Hackett (yikes) jumping to HC jobs.

20/20 hindsight, but I think this was also one of BB's biggest failings as a HC - failing to develop coaches on the offensive side of the ball. Each time McDaniels left, he allowed for fallow handling of the OC role. Look to 2009, with BoB replacing McDaniels functionally, but not nominally, leading the Pats to a 10-6 record and a one-and-done playoff loss to Baltimore at home, one of the worst losses in the BB era. Later, when McDaniels left again, he had allowed heir apparents like Daboll and O'Shea to leave in 2019 and didn't replace them. In 2020, he added Jedd Fisch (good!), but gave him Broken Cam Newton to coach (bad!), turning the team into a run-first offense all season long. When Fisch left, they again did not replace him. McDaniels then got a quality season out of Mac and left, taking the top two guys with him, and the offensive cupboard was again bare.
 

nighthob

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Mac threw for 3 TDs en route to a 50-10 win over the Jaguars in the second to last game of his rookie regular season. The Mac completely fell off in the second half of his rookie year argument is iffy - they just started playing better teams.
Yes, clearly throwing three TDs against a 2-14 team that had lost 7 in a row was an impressive feat. If only the Patriots had been handed a schedule loaded with teams that finished 3-14 they might have gone somewhere.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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It always felt to me that BB was blindsided a bit by the number of offensive coaches he lost in 2022. I don’t think he had any of “his guys” available externally and didn’t want to work with a random retread. It seemed like his plan was to try to cobble things together for 2022 and hope for O’Brien (or someone he had worked with previously) to be available in 2023.

Clearly it didn’t work out but the actual personnel on the field was just as problematic (if not more so) than the coaching.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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"Take away" surely seems like misstatement. McDaniels went to get the big bag in Las Vegas, so he wasn't sticking around. The question then would be who in 2022 have stepped into his shoes as OC. Starting with the 2021 staff:
  • Ivan Fears was deeply respected, but clearly headed to retirement.
  • Mick Lombardi and Bo Hardegree left with McDaniels.
  • Nick Caley held over into 2022, but kept the same job. He left after 2022, and was apparently offered the OC role under Mayo this offseason, but turned it down.
Typically, fired head coaches become OC candidates. There wasn't much out there though. Here's who was fired in 2021 (we won't count Payton, who left on his own, and wasn't about to be anyone's OC):
  • Matt Nagy - former OC, but immediately returned to KC to rejoin their offensive staff after his firing
  • Mike Zimmer - former DC
  • Brian Flores - former DC
  • Joe Judge - former STC
  • David Culley - numerous offensive coach roles
  • Vic Fangio - former DC
  • Jon Gruden - right back into cushy retirement
  • Urban Meyer - ...we're good, thanks.
So really, other than Culley (in his mid-60s), there really wasn't a good fallback option amongst the ex-HCs. The OC market was also somewhat needy, with Daboll, Pederson, O'Connell and Hackett (yikes) jumping to HC jobs.

20/20 hindsight, but I think this was also one of BB's biggest failings as a HC - failing to develop coaches on the offensive side of the ball. Each time McDaniels left, he allowed for fallow handling of the OC role. Look to 2009, with BoB replacing McDaniels functionally, but not nominally, leading the Pats to a 10-6 record and a one-and-done playoff loss to Baltimore at home, one of the worst losses in the BB era. Later, when McDaniels left again, he had allowed heir apparents like Daboll and O'Shea to leave in 2019 and didn't replace them. In 2020, he added Jedd Fisch (good!), but gave him Broken Cam Newton to coach (bad!), turning the team into a run-first offense all season long. When Fisch left, they again did not replace him. McDaniels then got a quality season out of Mac and left, taking the top two guys with him, and the offensive cupboard was again bare.
Tough to blame Bill for “allowing” OShea and Daboll to leave for nice promotions.

It’s tough to develop coaches when 3 of your key offensive assistant spots are manned by Fears, Scarnecchia and McDaniels (who was the de facto QB guru). They really only had the TE (Daboll) and WR coach spots (O’Shea for a long time) open other than low level assistants who were probably deemed too green to step into an OC role.

He had Caserio (WR coach) and O’Brien (offensive assistant) who went on to bigger and better things as well. Brian Ferentz left before the second half to the dynasty to be with his dad in Iowa.

Oddly enough, it was the long and fairly consistent staff on the offense that created the problems at the end. He ran out of guys, not because he couldn’t develop them but because the guys he developed kept leaving for promotions and then McDaniels took the obvious internal promotional guys while BB needed to replace Fears and Scarnecchia. All of his former guys were entrenched in better or lateral roles elsewhere (or had retired)

I guess there’s an argument to be made that had he had a much larger coaching staff or utilized “run game coordinator” type spots, he’d have more coverage when guys left but it worked really really well for two decades until the attrition became too much.
 

lexrageorge

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Worth noting that while the Judge/Patricia experiment was indeed a failure, Mac sucked just as badly (if not worse) playing for an experienced and well-regarded OC in O'Brien.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Has someone done a wellness check on @Smiling Joe Hesketh?
Mac Jones single-handedly ruined the Pats dynastic run and no one will be able to tell me otherwise.

A weak willed selfish jackass unable to deal with the slightest bit of adversity. When faced with the smallest amount of pressure he folded like an origami swan. It's telling that he got drafted after his final college year where he played in front of no fans. He was never up for the pressure.

After the "good" run Harris mentioned, they lost 4 out of their last 5 games.

Mac Jones was never any good. Mac Jones could have had Bill Walsh as an offensive coordinator and he still would have failed, because Mac Jones lacks the necessary physical and mental tools to be an NFL QB. He has the arm of Pete Gray with the mental toughness of Tony Eason. Bailey Zappe is terrible, but his teammates liked him a helluva lot more than Mac and it's not a surprise the Pats got a dead cat bounce against Denver and Pittsburgh once Mac was benched.

If reports are to be believed, BB wanted to trade Mac Jones after his second season and Kraft refused to let him do so. BB knew Mac sucked.

Damien Harris is full of shit, and is now out of the NFL and firing broadsides because of it.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Mac is what he is. But it remains the case that BB did not help matters by being unable to put a compentent offensive coaching staff in place.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I'm not talking about this any longer. They could have given him Don Coryell and Kyle Shanahan and Mac still would have failed because Mac fucking sucks and he's a selfish weak willed asshole.

Period, end of story, the book is closed.
 

johnmd20

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I'm not talking about this any longer. They could have given him Don Coryell and Kyle Shanahan and Mac still would have failed because Mac fucking sucks and he's a selfish weak willed asshole.

Period, end of story, the book is closed.
Mac would have been awesome in a Kyle Shanahan offense. Because every QB is.

Just kidding!
 

Van Everyman

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Mac Jones single-handedly ruined the Pats dynastic run and no one will be able to tell me otherwise.

A weak willed selfish jackass unable to deal with the slightest bit of adversity. When faced with the smallest amount of pressure he folded like an origami swan.

After the "good" run Harris mentioned, they lost 4 out of their last 5 games.

Mac Jones was never any good. Mac Jones could have had Bill Walsh as an offensive coordinator and he still would have failed, because Mac Jones lacks the necessary physical and mental tools to be an NFL QB. He has the arm of Pete Gray with the mental toughness of Tony Eason.

If reports are to be believed, BB wanted to trade Mac Jones after his second season and Kraft refused to let him do so. BB knew Mac sucked.

Damien Harris is full of shit, and is now out of the NFL and firing broadsides because of it.
That’s more like it. :)

Harris’ take mirrors a lot of what I’ve been saying for awhile so obviously I found what he’s describing here pretty interesting. But even putting aside the Mac stuffthere are some wrinkles and/or additional detail in here that I found interesting:

1) That the team was collectively underwhelmed when Bill brought in Cam Newton in 2020. Harris doesn’t dwell on the point but he suggested the team felt Bill seemed lackadaisical about replacing Brady when it was obvious to everyone for the whole previous year that he wouldn’t be back.

2)) That the changing of the offensive scheme in 2022 was either because Bill a) was paranoid about using another team’s scheme b) refused to run it back bc he was sore about McDaniels leaving or c) felt they needed a scheme they could call their own even if it was basically the same plays with different names. This part was absolutely worth listening to I thought.

3) That Brady had pretty much become the de facto manager of team culture by the end of his run. He tells a story about Brady yelling at him in one practice and Harris responding by calling him “sir” – and how Brady came up to him after and told Harris never to call him “sir.” We heard a lot this offseason about Bill’s ability (or inability) to “connect” with modern players but in this interview, Harris more or less says that started to rear its head when Brady left (and there’s some nice context he provides comparing the experience to playing under Hardo last season).

I don’t want to overstate the importance of this pod. After all it’s one guy’s experience and opinion. But a lot of what Harris is saying here makes sense – that a lot of Bill‘s moves after Brady left felt less about “what’s best for the team” and more about him trying to reestablish authority and control he had ceded to others during the second half of the dynasty. And because this was more or less an open secret, teams were concerned that’s what they would get if they hired Bill this offseason.

The whole pod is here, the Pats stuff starts at about the 36 minute mark:
View: https://youtu.be/lxRnmRVDzRs?si=M5Xgk7ThauJJc_4b
 

Captaincoop

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Mac Jones single-handedly ruined the Pats dynastic run and no one will be able to tell me otherwise.

A weak willed selfish jackass unable to deal with the slightest bit of adversity. When faced with the smallest amount of pressure he folded like an origami swan. It's telling that he got drafted after his final college year where he played in front of no fans. He was never up for the pressure.

After the "good" run Harris mentioned, they lost 4 out of their last 5 games.

Mac Jones was never any good. Mac Jones could have had Bill Walsh as an offensive coordinator and he still would have failed, because Mac Jones lacks the necessary physical and mental tools to be an NFL QB. He has the arm of Pete Gray with the mental toughness of Tony Eason. Bailey Zappe is terrible, but his teammates liked him a helluva lot more than Mac and it's not a surprise the Pats got a dead cat bounce against Denver and Pittsburgh once Mac was benched.

If reports are to be believed, BB wanted to trade Mac Jones after his second season and Kraft refused to let him do so. BB knew Mac sucked.

Damien Harris is full of shit, and is now out of the NFL and firing broadsides because of it.
100% cosigned.
 

Helmet Head

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I take everything Mac did his rookie year with a grain of salt. They didn’t really ask him to do a whole lot and the opponents were not very good in October and November. Additionally, the nfl didn’t really have a book out on him yet. Once that book was out and they asked him to do more, it quickly became apparent he sucked.

Would it have been better with McDaniels in year 2? Sure but we would have come to the same conclusion eventually. I think Bill knew he wasn’t it after year 1 judging by how he treated him.
 

lexrageorge

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That’s more like it. :)

Harris’ take mirrors a lot of what I’ve been saying for awhile so obviously I found what he’s describing here pretty interesting. But even putting aside the Mac stuffthere are some wrinkles and/or additional detail in here that I found interesting:

1) That the team was collectively underwhelmed when Bill brought in Cam Newton in 2020. Harris doesn’t dwell on the point but he suggested the team felt Bill seemed lackadaisical about replacing Brady when it was obvious to everyone for the whole previous year that he wouldn’t be back.
It's been established already that the team was max capped that offseason, having gone all in the past couple of years to maximize the ending of the Brady window. Cam Newtown was signed because he was both available and fit into the team's minimal salary cap space. What Damien Harris tells us what some other anonymous teammates and talk radio hosts believe is irrelevant.

2)) That the changing of the offensive scheme in 2022 was either because Bill a) was paranoid about using another team’s scheme b) refused to run it back bc he was sore about McDaniels leaving or c) felt they needed a scheme they could call their own even if it was basically the same plays with different names. This part was absolutely worth listening to I thought.
Teams always change terminology when new offensive coordinators are brought in. The idea that the scheme changes were done to satisfy Bill's ego is a take, I guess. Or perhaps a better explanation is that Mac sucks.
3) That Brady had pretty much become the de facto manager of team culture by the end of his run. He tells a story about Brady yelling at him in one practice and Harris responding by calling him “sir” – and how Brady came up to him after and told Harris never to call him “sir.” We heard a lot this offseason about Bill’s ability (or inability) to “connect” with modern players but in this interview, Harris more or less says that started to rear its head when Brady left (and there’s some nice context he provides comparing the experience to playing under Hardo last season).

I don’t want to overstate the importance of this pod. After all it’s one guy’s experience and opinion. But a lot of what Harris is saying here makes sense – that a lot of Bill‘s moves after Brady left felt less about “what’s best for the team” and more about him trying to reestablish authority and control he had ceded to others during the second half of the dynasty. And because this was more or less an open secret, teams were concerned that’s what they would get if they hired Bill this offseason.

The whole pod is here, the Pats stuff starts at about the 36 minute mark:
View: https://youtu.be/lxRnmRVDzRs?si=M5Xgk7ThauJJc_4b
Or, perhaps Mac sucks. To be fair, his supporting cast also sucked. I will agree that when you take the aggregate of the WR, TE, and OL, last season's cast was among the worst in the league, no better than bottom 5. That is on Bill. What's not on Bill is how bad Mac turned out to be, and Kraft meddling to veto a potential trade when Mac would have brought back a lot more than some late 6th that they will end up getting for him.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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One thing that needs mentioning about Cam: following Brady as the team's starting QB would always be a difficult position, and by bringing in Cam they were bringing in an accomplished veteran with his own strong sense of identity which would allow the transition period to be easier for the next young franchise QB, no matter who it would be. Cam was never going to be compared to Brady because he was already CAM and played a completely different style.
 

Eddie Jurak

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So do people think that after 2021, BB was like, "Well, my QB sucks, so why don't I just turn the offense over to a defensive coach?"
 

rodderick

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Regarding the Damien Harris discourse we have to realize he's been Mac's best friend since their time at Alabama. If there's one guy we could reasonably expect to go all in on the "Mac was failed by Bill" narrative to prop him up, it's Harris.
 

dynomite

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One thing that needs mentioning about Cam: following Brady as the team's starting QB would always be a difficult position, and by bringing in Cam they were bringing in an accomplished veteran with his own strong sense of identity which would allow the transition period to be easier for the next young franchise QB, no matter who it would be. Cam was never going to be compared to Brady because he was already CAM and played a completely different style.
This is a good point. Does anyone really have a problem with Bill bringing in Cam?

QBs with the pedigree of Cam — made a Super Bowl, won an MVP, 1st team All Pro — are pretty rarely available as free agents, let alone as free agents who’ll sign short, cheap contracts. Obviously it didn’t work out and his arm was shot (that’s why he was available after all) but I have no issues with it.

And apologies if someone else mentioned this, but it bears mention that the offense under Patricia/Judge was notably better than a similar one under BOB a year later. I’m not saying that it was a good decision to bring them in, and obviously if the players felt it wasn’t working that’s damning, but it’s worth remembering that a real offensive coordinator didn’t fare better.

I’m not excusing the decision, and going through 3 offensive coordinators in 3 seasons is hard on a young QB I’m sure, but anyone who has watched Mac’s film from ‘22 & ‘23 can see his glaring flaws.
 

Commander Shears

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This is a good point. Does anyone really have a problem with Bill bringing in Cam?
I don't think too many people have a problem with them signing Newton. The problem is that they had a soon to be 43 year old quarterback who wanted out and the plan for next year was Jarrett Stidham and whatever crap is left on the junkheap at the end of the offseason.

I cannot believe that we are still debating on any level that Mac Jones being terrible and Bill Belichick royally botching the position are somehow mutually exclusive. Hell, the former even rolls rather nicely into the latter.
 

johnmd20

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This is a good point. Does anyone really have a problem with Bill bringing in Cam?

QBs with the pedigree of Cam — made a Super Bowl, won an MVP, 1st team All Pro — are pretty rarely available as free agents, let alone as free agents who’ll sign short, cheap contracts. Obviously it didn’t work out and his arm was shot (that’s why he was available after all) but I have no issues with it.

And apologies if someone else mentioned this, but it bears mention that the offense under Patricia/Judge was notably better than a similar one under BOB a year later. I’m not saying that it was a good decision to bring them in, and obviously if the players felt it wasn’t working that’s damning, but it’s worth remembering that a real offensive coordinator didn’t fare better.

I’m not excusing the decision, and going through 3 offensive coordinators in 3 seasons is hard on a young QB I’m sure, but anyone who has watched Mac’s film from ‘22 & ‘23 can see his glaring flaws.
Cam was solid enough, especially early in the season. After he got Covid, he just wasn't the same. It just took a lot out of him.
 

lexrageorge

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I don't think too many people have a problem with them signing Newton. The problem is that they had a soon to be 43 year old quarterback who wanted out and the plan for next year was Jarrett Stidham and whatever crap is left on the junkheap at the end of the offseason.

I cannot believe that we are still debating on any level that Mac Jones being terrible and Bill Belichick royally botching the position are somehow mutually exclusive. Hell, the former even rolls rather nicely into the latter.
The plan was to go all in on 2017-2019, aka the final 3 seasons of Brady. Pats did exactly that, especially in 2019 by signing Antonio Brown and trading for Sanu. Result was zero cap space to sign a new QB. Not everything can be "planned" for, and a reset season in 2020 was inevitable. Literally every single franchise has such seasons.
 

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Nov 16, 2004
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The plan was to go all in on 2017-2019, aka the final 3 seasons of Brady. Pats did exactly that, especially in 2019 by signing Antonio Brown and trading for Sanu. Result was zero cap space to sign a new QB. Not everything can be "planned" for, and a reset season in 2020 was inevitable. Literally every single franchise has such seasons.
Sign Newton then before the 4th of July and give him a full offseason at a minimum. Don't play hardball and get him in there.

These threads read like a bad Star Wars Retcon.

From Deflategate, to the Wickersham article(s), Brady was unhappy for 3 years and they knew he was gone and went all in, then they never thought he'd leave so they were unprepared. Then BB didn't want to draft Mac Jones! Kraft made him do it! It's funny people make fun of sports radio, but these threads are even worse.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
9,087
Philly
I wasn’t a Mac guy but I thought he could be a an average starter type (limited and low end) unless his mental traits evolved like Manning and Brady. So that was a lot to ask for. His work presnap was excellent for the majority of his career here but post snap he regressed. He looked better in year 1 than year 3 trusting his processing. To me that’s indicative of a guy who has lost confidence. Year 2 was a horrible year for him and growth so I buy what Harris is saying. It also makes sense why Robert Kraft wanted to fire Bill after 2022. That is a level of dysfunction that falls squarely on his shoulders. It ended poorly but I’m sure we’re all more than grateful for what was before the fall!

Edit: I thought Mac had it early on in year 3 and then it just went off a cliff.
 

Mantush

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 30, 2014
549
I don't know... Mac was better under Patricia than he was under BOB. I don't think Patricia destroyed Mac as much as most people think / say. Hell, the offense looked better multiple times under Patricia than it ever did under BOB (in my opinion).
 

Captaincoop

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
13,858
Santa Monica, CA
Sign Newton then before the 4th of July and give him a full offseason at a minimum. Don't play hardball and get him in there.

These threads read like a bad Star Wars Retcon.

From Deflategate, to the Wickersham article(s), Brady was unhappy for 3 years and they knew he was gone and went all in, then they never thought he'd leave so they were unprepared. Then BB didn't want to draft Mac Jones! Kraft made him do it! It's funny people make fun of sports radio, but these threads are even worse.
There was no full offseason that year, everything was shut down until summer and the whole offseason was all screwed up. Everyone forgets that.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,905
Melrose, MA
I don't know... Mac was better under Patricia than he was under BOB. I don't think Patricia destroyed Mac as much as most people think / say. Hell, the offense looked better multiple times under Patricia than it ever did under BOB (in my opinion).
The offense sucked, but eventually Patricia (I would imagine) realized all he had was Rhamondre and a shitty short game, and he prevailed on Mac not to do stupid shit.

Overall, Mac had 14 TD/11 INT in 2022. But over the 9 games from his first start after coming back from injury through the next to last game of the year, he had 9 TD/2 INT. Not bad. Meh. Pats were 5-4 in those games. The next week against Buffalo Mac threw 3 picks in a 12 point loss.

With Bob the team was worse and Mac was back trying to make plays out of nothing, which he isn't good enough to do.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
There was no full offseason that year, everything was shut down until summer and the whole offseason was all screwed up. Everyone forgets that.
This is a good point. All the more infuriating that Brady made it work

With Bob the team was worse and Mac was back trying to make plays out of nothing, which he isn't good enough to do.
I actually found this breakdown by Warner insightful. By the Giants game last year Mac wasn’t always “making something out of nothing” — there’s a parade of horribles in blocking and route running and play design, but again and again in this film even when he gets solid protection and open receivers he just cannot make the throw or see where the throw should go. It’s a pretty big indictment of Mac, although of course people will say he was broken by then, the revolving coordinators, etc. Plenty of blame to go around.

View: https://youtu.be/gp7PwhUpNCc?si=4cGBu-XdmCkk0Dbu
 
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Justthetippett

New Member
Aug 9, 2015
2,866
I don't really know why this has to ever become an either/or question. Mac was bad and Bill made some bad decisions. Now they are both gone. Maybe it's mostly just out of surprise that BB couldn't make it work after two decades of excellence. The argument is really over proportions of blame, but for that you have to agree on facts. Most vastly overrate his first year.

How long will Mac peddle this crap to his friends? Is it always going to be someone else's fault (unless he succeeds)? Probably. And that's a big reason why he won't be a good NFL QB.