2023 Ryder Cup - When in Rome...

E5 Yaz

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It's like asking, "Can you put the Red Sox defense and base running this season into words?"
 

RedOctober3829

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As bad as it was Friday and Saturday, they did not lay down today. A loss is a loss, but they made it about as uncomfortable as you could for EU given the circumstances.

Bethpage is about 30 minutes from my house. You bet your ass I will be there in 2 years.
 

Mooch

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I can’t help but feel that LIV really fucked the US Ryder Cup team. Fractured their best 12 and forced some shaky captains picks who weren’t playing good golf down the stretch.
 

Dan Murfman

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I suppose PGA of America needs the money more than Augusta National. But maybe they can take a little less like ANC and dictate the coverage a little more. It’s just brutal.
 

Dave Stapleton

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I can’t help but feel that LIV really fucked the US Ryder Cup team. Fractured their best 12 and forced some shaky captains picks who weren’t playing good golf down the stretch.
I mentioned this earlier. You also couldn’t get a sense of how good those players were because of LIV. DJ, Gooch, Bryson?

And man Patrick is an ass but is so good in this tournament.

I really wonder if they went against the data in foursomes. Solly seemed to allude to this on yesterdays podcast and Molinari was the dedicated data head for Europe. Would love to see some fresh perspective at the captaincy next time in Europe like Azinger was when he was chosen.
 

cshea

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It sounds like they listened to the data people and didn't go rogue with the pairings. Scheffler/Koepka in foursomes Saturday morning was a rogue, panic pairing but the rest apparently came from the data team.

For whatever reason foursomes is a killer. They are 4-20-0 in foursomes in the last 3 road Ryder Cups. They actually have the lead in fourball, 13.5-10.5. Singles is roughly even, slight edge Europe, +4 in total points, but there's also some noise in total records given some of these have been over early on Sunday and the end matches don't matter and get goofy.

The weird thing is they are good at foursomes at home. Same time frame, last 3 home Ryder Cups, they are 17-5-6.5 in foursomes.
 

cshea

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cshea

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Can anyone imagine Rory, Rahm, Hovland, Rose making a stink and getting into a contract dispute over not being paid to participate in the Ryder Cup? Even the ahole old guard who took LIV money like Sergio, Westwood and Poulter?
 

Comfortably Lomb

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Can anyone imagine Rory, Rahm, Hovland, Rose making a stink and getting into a contract dispute over not being paid to participate in the Ryder Cup? Even the ahole old guard who took LIV money like Sergio, Westwood and Poulter?
Sports media is not good at reporting things like this. If the parties can't agree to contract terms then X can't happen (like playing in the event) is pretty common stuff.

This is a massive event with incredibly deep-pocketed entities and individuals involved, of course they're going to engage counsel, and counsel is going to behave like counsel and talk to their client about what the agreements they intend to enter mean, and raise potential issues and the parties are going to have to talk through them. Whether it was a "stink" sounds like typical media nonsense trying to frame normal behavior as drama. I'm guessing whatever agreements the players need to sign are probably less favorable than they'd like too for an event that they're basically do for free.

What sports media IS great at doing is attacking people and tearing people down without recourse.
 

Dave Stapleton

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And here we go!

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5d7d5410-610b-11ee-977c-44b3e2b54888?shareToken=7ba9cf1d13c261d528f044206355e6d3

Xander's dad has spoken. Apparently Xander almost didn't play due to a contract dispute with the PGA of America. It's essentially about the money, but one of the sticking points was Xander (and Cantlay) didn't want Neflix around. The dispute wasn't resolved until Labor Day. Xander and Cantlay both skipped the team scouting trip to Rome.
I think these guys are handling this all wrong but it does seem strange to me that the PGA agrees to film a series and then requires all of its members to participate and open their lives to it with no direct compensation?

Also, listened to NLU last night and how the US didn't perform. I guess so but in two years, US will absolutely destroy the European team and then two years after the same will happen in Ireland, rinse repeat. Home team advantage is now so powerful (and I don't think it is limited to course set up) that any victory by a visiting team will be a monumental upset and unlikely.
 

cshea

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Hard to know exactly what the ask was from Netflix but I do agree in general that player participation should be voluntary. The rest of the whining about money...I'm not sure what to make of it. I get wanting to be compensated for services. They're the product and others shouldn't take all the profits. That said the PGA Tour does get 20% of the TV revenue from the week and it's supposed to go into player pension fund. I guess the solution here is for the Tour to give a higher chunk of that to the 12 guys who play as a bonus.

At the same time...Cantlay and Xander have made ~$60+ million each on the golf course over their career, not including endorsements. So as a fan I also feel like they can STFU for a week and play.They are veterans who have been there before so they knew the drill regarding compensation. If it was an issue, decline the invite. And skipping a team scouting trip is pretty shitty.

It just seems like this stuff doesn't happen to the Euro's. Win or lose you never hear the in-fighting, fractured team, and finger pointing from players that comes out of almost every US team, especially when they lose. Maybe it goes on for the Euro's and we just never hear it from the media.

On the course, it's the foursomes thing. I don't have any clue as to why it happens but that's the difference. They get destroyed in Europe in foursomes, but it flips in the US. Whoever figures out the why will probably be the team that wins a road Ryder Cup first.
 

mostman

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We don’t know the details, but if a documentary crew was milling around during an event I was participating in, and using audio and video of me, I would expect to be asked for approval, and probably compensated if it was a commercial endeavor.
 

Dave Stapleton

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Hard to know exactly what the ask was from Netflix but I do agree in general that player participation should be voluntary. The rest of the whining about money...I'm not sure what to make of it. I get wanting to be compensated for services. They're the product and others shouldn't take all the profits. That said the PGA Tour does get 20% of the TV revenue from the week and it's supposed to go into player pension fund. I guess the solution here is for the Tour to give a higher chunk of that to the 12 guys who play as a bonus.

At the same time...Cantlay and Xander have made ~$60+ million each on the golf course over their career, not including endorsements. So as a fan I also feel like they can STFU for a week and play.They are veterans who have been there before so they knew the drill regarding compensation. If it was an issue, decline the invite. And skipping a team scouting trip is pretty shitty.

It just seems like this stuff doesn't happen to the Euro's. Win or lose you never hear the in-fighting, fractured team, and finger pointing from players that comes out of almost every US team, especially when they lose. Maybe it goes on for the Euro's and we just never hear it from the media.

On the course, it's the foursomes thing. I don't have any clue as to why it happens but that's the difference. They get destroyed in Europe in foursomes, but it flips in the US. Whoever figures out the why will probably be the team that wins a road Ryder Cup first.
I am totally fine with not compensating the Ryder Cup participants. If the players don't want to particiapte then don't. Here is an interesting perspective on the Ryder Cup's current status and how it is unlikely to change.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ryder-cup-2023-broken-no-easy-fix-requiem

I've seen enough, and only fools let themselves be deluded for more than a decade. The fact of the matter is that the Ryder Cup has evolved into a malfunctioning affair in which the script is pre-written. The home team reigns supreme and has done so for five straight Ryder Cups, winning by gaudy margins. This will continue into the future—and there appears to be no practical solution that doesn't involve removing the Ryder Cup from its host nations—an obvious impossibility that wouldn't be desirable even if it could be done without hemorrhaging money (which it could not). In modern sport, there is nothing as predictable as a Ryder Cup; the drama is dead.
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
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I am totally fine with not compensating the Ryder Cup participants. If the players don't want to particiapte then don't.
I think that's perfectly reasonable, but at the same time I don't see why it's not just as fine for the players to squeeze the PGAoA / Ryder Cup if they feel they have leverage and want to do so. This isn't just some fun silly season event like it was decades ago, there's serious money behind this thing.
 

Zomp

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I’d like to see the captains in 2 Ryder cup cycles but have them alternate when they start.

Have the captain start with the home Ryder Cup and end with the away one. That way they are more seasoned and can maybe make better decisions.
 

cshea

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I am totally fine with not compensating the Ryder Cup participants. If the players don't want to particiapte then don't. Here is an interesting perspective on the Ryder Cup's current status and how it is unlikely to change.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ryder-cup-2023-broken-no-easy-fix-requiem
I'd at least try having a neutral party set up the golf course but the more I read and think about it, the more I'm not sure it would change much. Fourball and singles tend to be roughly even, then foursomes is a curb stomping. Does home course set up specifically favor that format and dramatically tilt the scales?
 

cshea

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I’d like to see the captains in 2 Ryder cup cycles but have them alternate when they start.

Have the captain start with the home Ryder Cup and end with the away one. That way they are more seasoned and can maybe make better decisions.
I think the captaincy is mostly group think now and the captain is just out there to do media. There is probably some stuff on the margins that ZJ would change if he had a 2nd crack at it but ultimately I think the decision making stays the same. Strategy and pairings comes from the data team.

That said, there's a core group of like 5 guys that are the captain's every year (including the PC). First of all, in a 12 player team that is together for all of a week is it necessary to have 5 total captains? 5 captains always seemed like overkill to me. It's always some combination of ZJ, Stricker, DL3, Couples and Furyk. I don't mind them sticking around for 1 more at Bethpage but next time we go to Europe I'd like to see some turnover and maybe fresh thinking.

Edit: I'm guessing Bethpage is Tiger's if he wants it. There's no real other option unless they dip back into the aformentioned group of 5.
 

RedOctober3829

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I think the captaincy is mostly group think now and the captain is just out there to do media. There is probably some stuff on the margins that ZJ would change if he had a 2nd crack at it but ultimately I think the decision making stays the same. Strategy and pairings comes from the data team.

That said, there's a core group of like 5 guys that are the captain's every year (including the PC). First of all, in a 12 player team that is together for all of a week is it necessary to have 5 total captains? 5 captains always seemed like overkill to me. It's always some combination of ZJ, Stricker, DL3, Couples and Furyk. I don't mind them sticking around for 1 more at Bethpage but next time we go to Europe I'd like to see some turnover and maybe fresh thinking.

Edit: I'm guessing Bethpage is Tiger's if he wants it. There's no real other option unless they dip back into the aformentioned group of 5.
Tiger as Captain in the NY area makes a lot of sense if Phil is out. Given how beloved Phil is in this area, he would have been a slam dunk captain but that is not the case anymore.
 

tims4wins

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I've always thought the role being called Captain was weird too. Aren't they more like the Manager? Like, shouldn't the team have 1-2 captains that are actually playing?
 

cshea

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Back in the day the captains did play. It doesn't happen anymore, though Tiger did it in 2019 at the PC. I think they just sort of kept the name even though the role evolved from playing to managing.

I've just always thought having 5-6 captains for a team of 12 that gets together once a year was a too many cooks in the kitchen situation.