2023 Pats: Offseason

SMU_Sox

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In that time BB traded for Welker and Moss - instead of drafting guys he traded draft capital for them. Cooks too. All 3 worked out well.

Btw I get that he missed on Keene and Asiasi but the other TEs in that draft - the best guy they missed on has averaged like 250 yards per season. It was a shit TE class. Sure 250 > 0 but these are reserve TEs that he missed on.
 

SMU_Sox

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I think BB is going to draft WRs and TEs in this draft too - he's meeting with a bunch of WRs in his top 30 visits. Mingo, Addison, Zay, etc. He's going to draft 1-2.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Except your argument keeps shifting in the details is the point. You argue Bill sucks at creating a modern offense, and your argument is to bring up his drafting from 8 or 10 or 15 years ago.
You argue you need to take shots on adding WR and TE talent, pointing to other teams that do.... and people note that in the "modern" years (last 5) that's exactly what he has done. He's taken as many shots in the draft as most of these teams, he's taken MORE shots in FA than these teams.

And your evidence that the Patriots suck on offense is basically... 2 non-consecutive years?
I mean,.... worst Brady offense years (as he hit his 40s) isn't exactly a big knock considering they were a consistent top 5-8 offense.
I look at this team, I see a bad offense last year (17th in PF, 26th in EXP)
In 2021... that was a good offense (6th in PF, 10th in EXP) and with a rookie QB.
2020.... bad (27th in PF, 23rd in EXP)
2019.... weird year, great production (7th in PF) but underlying was worrying (17th in EXP)
2018.... the one you note as Tom's worst statistical season... excellent offense (4th in PF, 4th in EXP)
2017.... great 2nd in PF, 1st in EXP.

And this is the problem. You're so caught up in a bad year last year and this fantasy you have that the NFL has passed Bill by, that you don't recognize that we have had really good offenses in 4 of the last 6 years, and 1 of the 2 Mac Jones years. So instead of saying... "hmm I wonder if the reason the offense dropped off from top 10 in 2021 to bad in 2022 was because they replaced an excellent offensive coordinator with a guy who had no idea what he was doing" you leap to "Bill sucks at creating an offense in today's NFL, as proven by his draft record from 2003 to 2018!"

Edit- and this is why the argument is circular, you say "my argument is this unsupported statement" people ask for support... you give it.... people note that the details are fundamentally inaccurate and don't support the argument, you come back to "forget the details, my argument is this unsupported statement with no facts to back it up"
I feel like you're not even reading my posts.

When you write "You argue you need to take shots on adding WR and TE talent, pointing to other teams that do.... and people note that in the "modern" years (last 5) that's exactly what he has done." IT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE if we're talking about the draft, I've repeatedly shown it's not true. Your counter to that argument, "yeah, but Bill has tried in free agency." If my overriding point is Bill sucks at creating an offense in today's NF without Tom Brady, and I'm pointing out that he's not taking shots in the draft as often as other teams, and in free agency, the shots he takes suck ass, how is that countering what I'm saying? Are we giving him points for effort or something?

I mean, I keep talking about very specific things, and then you keep adding variables to make your point. You want to talk about the Pats in free agency as opposed to the draft, let's talk about the Chiefs going out and trading for Kadarius Toney, let's talk about how they spent a 2nd rounder on Skye Moore, let's talk about how they drafted Isaiah Pacheco or how they signed free agent, Jerick McKinnon on a 1 year deal or how they took a shot and signed Marquez Valdez-Scantling, they went and got JuJu on a 1 year deal in free agency. They took CHE in the 1st round, they took Hardman with their 1st overall pick in 2019.

The Pats are taking less shots on skill positions in free agency and the draft than the fucking Chiefs are, and the Chiefs have Mahomes. Difference is, their moves are working. Bill is trying to follow a Chiefs model, without having Mahomes. It doesn't work.

How have the Pats taken the same number of shots at WR/TE as other teams in the draft over the last 5 years? They've taken 2 WR's in the first 3 rounds over the last 9 years (Harry and Thornton) and they took 2 tight ends in 2020 that both sucked ass, in the 3rd round. That's it. That's your last 5 years, that's your last 9 years. Philly has taken twice as many 1st round WR's in the past 3 years as Bill has taken in over 20 years in New England. Philly has taken more WR's in the 1st 3 rounds in the last 4 drafts than Bill has taken in 9 drafts. They took Dallas Goedert in the 2nd round in 2018, even though they had a 35th overall pick in Zach Ertz still on the roster. They took Miles Sanders in the 2nd round in 2019, and they still had space to pro bowler, Landon Dickerson at Guard in 2021 in the 2nd round, while we're reaching for Cole Strange in the 1st in 2022. They even whiffed on their first round tackle on Andre Dillard in 2019.

San Fran has taken 5 wide receivers in the first 3 rounds in the last 5 drafts. Once again, the Pats have taken 2 in the last 9 drafts, but you keep telling me that the Pats are taking an equal number of shots. Then I tell you SF has also taken 2 running backs and gone out and gotten CMC, and you call him an "aging RB." CMC!! That "aging RB" joined a 3-3 San Fran team that lost their first game with him to SB Champs, KC, and then proceeded to win 10 consecutive regular season games, 2 playoff games and doing a bunch of it with their 3rd string, Mr. Irrelevant QB, but yeah, what a shit move to get that "aging RB."


Do you want to know why your posts are aggravating?

You wrote this "
2019.... weird year, great production (7th in PF) but underlying was worrying (17th in EXP)
2018.... the one you note as Tom's worst statistical season... excellent offense (4th in PF, 4th in EXP)

To describe what I wrote, which was actually this:

In 2018, Tom Brady had his worst statistical season in 4 years. Gronk and Edelman were aging and injured, Josh Gordon was here and there, but Brady relying on guys like White and Hogan made it work. Bill even recognized this, which is why he went out and drafted N'Keal Harry in the 1st round in 2019 (a whiff because well, he can't draft high end wide receivers early, I've given you the list going back 20 years). Bills FIRST AND ONLY use of a 1st round pick on a WR.

Brady comes back in 2019, and is even worse,


But notice how you shift the conversation? I talked specifically about Brady, and you shift it to talking about the offense (of course, failing to note the defense putting those teams in position to succeed, scoring non-offensive touchdowns like crazy, etc.). 2019 was a weird year because they had the best defense in the NFL, they scored 7 non-offensive touchdowns and dominated teams with their defense leading to turnovers/field position, Brady had an 88.0 QB rating that year. The Offense was bad and so was Brady, because Bill fucked the offense over by not retooling.

And now after we've all listened to you shit on Mac Jones for over a year, you're telling us they had a good offense in 2021? But you aren't sure of the blame pie regarding the offensive line, the skill positions and the coaching shitshow in 2022, but you're completely convinced Mac sucks.

I give up. Let's see how Bill finishes the offseason, so you can shit on Mac, and not blame Bill when we roll out a bunch of useless skill position guys for the 5th+ year in a row.
 
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Petagine in a Bottle

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Wes Welker and Randy Moss were great acquisitions! It’s also been 16 years since the Pats traded for them. Even Cooks was six years ago. I think any criticism of Belichick and building the offense is largely about what he’s done in the five years since he traded Cooks.
 

SMU_Sox

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Yeah I think that's fair - and he hasn't done enough recently. He also hasn't had the best hands to deal for guys but part of that is his own doing. Let's see what he does this draft season. If he doesn't hit on WR and TE I will be worried. It's a great year for TEs too.

When you look at their top 30 visits they are highly valuable not just for WHO they are interested in but which position. This year he is all over WRs at the top.
 

Super Nomario

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I agree with all of this and was just being a bad comedian.
I am struck by the fact that starting in Tom’s last season they really have started to spend more money and draft capital on receivers and tight ends. I think they knew they could often get by with less with Tom and they did have the good fortune to have a few guys (gronk Edelman and welker) who were productive for a long time and they also knew that rookies and Tom don’t mix well-and now that they don’t have Brady they are indeed working to get him weapons,even if they’re not willing to spend the capital to get absolute top flight weapons
I don't agree with "rookies and Tom don't mix well." Brady threw to young receivers when they were good (Mitchell, Gronk, Branch ... shit, he even threw to Dobson and Thompkins that one year), but most of them weren't good.

I think Belichick generally values WR less than just about any other decision-maker in the NFL. And it's worked! But I think a lot of why it worked was he found great players relatively inexpensively at slot WR and TE and they built the offense around those positions. But the league has caught up here, and those positions aren't so undervalued anymore, and now he has to play the same game as everyone else and investing less than others is getting worse results than others. I think they tried to resurrect the two TE thing a couple years back with Henry and Smith and they were just a really ill-matched pair. I don't think Henry / Gesicki looks much better. I have no idea what they're going to do now.
 

E5 Yaz

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Malcolm Mitchell's Wheels would be great SoSH handle if it weren't so sad to contemplate
 

SMU_Sox

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They need to draft an in-line blocker. If they don't take Schoonmaker, Washington, or Kraft (or I guess Mayer or Kincaid) I would be pretty shocked. Schoonmaker is about as prototype Patriot as you can get.
 

Deathofthebambino

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What are the Chargers doing that’s in any way analogous to what BB is doing with the Pats? They’ve got a star QB and have two terrific WRs, and an elite RB.
They've got a star QB who just put up comparable numbers in year 3 as Mac did in his rookie season.

Mac Rookie year: 10-7 record, 67.6comp%, 22td, 13int, 3,800 yards, 92.5 rating, 5.1% sack rate
Herbert, year 3: 10-7 record, 68.2comp%, 24td, 10int, 4,739 yards, 93.5 rating, 5.2% sack rate.

The analogy is that in the last 5 drafts, the Chargers have taken 1 WR (3rd rounder Josh Palmer), 1 TE (Tre McKitty in the 3rd round) and zero running backs in the first 3 rounds. Their star QB now has a 25-24 record in the NFL. I love Keenan Allen, but if folks here don't want Hopkins for his money at his age, they really wouldn't want Allen, who IMO, is the poor man's Hopkins right now. And Mike Williams is the rich man's Davonte Parker. I like Ekeler, but he's not a runner. The Chargers were 30th in Rushing yards per attempt last year although he was a decent 4.5, but he does his work in the passing game. The Chargers should have spent some capital on getting some more help at the skill positions for the injuries that inevitably happen (Williams has missed games each of the past 3 years, Allen missed like 7 games last year, and the guys behind them are flat out terrible).
 

Deathofthebambino

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In that time BB traded for Welker and Moss - instead of drafting guys he traded draft capital for them. Cooks too. All 3 worked out well.

Btw I get that he missed on Keene and Asiasi but the other TEs in that draft - the best guy they missed on has averaged like 250 yards per season. It was a shit TE class. Sure 250 > 0 but these are reserve TEs that he missed on.
I'd rather miss on one fourth round TE that gives me 250 yards/season than miss on 2 3rd round TE's, projected to go behind that 4th rounder pre-draft, than get 7 total catches from both of them.

If the Pats had taken just one of those TE's and then used a later pick on a WR, it would have been semi-defensible, but using both on TE and whiffing on both, while trading up for both of them and reaching for both of them, that's just criminal, IMO. They could have thrown darts literally at the board and had a better chance of hitting a #3 WR and/or a backup TE than they did on whiffing as bad as they did.
 

SMU_Sox

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You only know that with hindsight. The odds of picks 91-101 hitting are both around 25% or less. They threw darts at tight end. They missed. I don't like the term reach. We know from studying the draft that reaches tend to not be as much of reaches as people expect. Now that doesn't mean they are great picks but reaches tend to outperform their pre-draft consensus ranking. There are also no such thing as steals. Steals almost never perform where their pre-draft consensus was. I agree that trading up isn't great. But if you look at the hits and misses at WR after it's about 1/5. It's just as likely they miss there. Asiasi was basically a 4th - pick 101, not even a top 100. He was a comp 3rd. Asiasi was a back of the 3rd round pick, 91.

You use such extreme language. "Criminal" to trade up and miss for two back end of the 3rd round guys? "Scouting malpractice" to miss on Harry.

Asiasi was ranked 133 on the consensus big board. 91-133 isn't much of a reach - it's in the same range of players.

Keene, was 184th, that's a stretch, yes.

They should have taken more shots at WR and I would have loved to have seen a shot day 3 but relying on day 3 guys to move the needle is not going to work out most of the time. They just drafted a WR last year in the 2nd. Let's see what they do this year.
 
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Shelterdog

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Or maybe Florio or Curran simply received bad or incorrect information. Maybe they got played - it happens.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they had
I don't agree with "rookies and Tom don't mix well." Brady threw to young receivers when they were good (Mitchell, Gronk, Branch ... shit, he even threw to Dobson and Thompkins that one year), but most of them weren't good.

I think Belichick generally values WR less than just about any other decision-maker in the NFL. And it's worked! But I think a lot of why it worked was he found great players relatively inexpensively at slot WR and TE and they built the offense around those positions. But the league has caught up here, and those positions aren't so undervalued anymore, and now he has to play the same game as everyone else and investing less than others is getting worse results than others. I think they tried to resurrect the two TE thing a couple years back with Henry and Smith and they were just a really ill-matched pair. I don't think Henry / Gesicki looks much better. I have no idea what they're going to do now.
I’d say Tom didn’t mix well with anyone who didn’t quickly grasp the offense and I wonder if that was a factor in their approach of taking a reasonable number of veterans at WR. But overall sure they got a ton of passing production without using a ton of resources on outside receivers for a very long time and that hasn’t worked for them lately
 

SMU_Sox

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In general I don’t like the “they should have taken X player over Y” and then point to the guys who hit because to me that’s acting like there is certainty when there isn’t. The draft is a total crap shoot. Anyone who tells you differently is lying.
 

SMU_Sox

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I don’t disagree with they should have invested more picks at WR or TE though. I think they should have and they are paying for that now.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I don’t disagree with they should have invested more picks at WR or TE though. I think they should have and they are paying for that now.
This is pretty much what I've been saying all along, and trying to use examples to prove it. The Pats have not tried to retool through the draft at skill positions (I mean, maybe RB, but that's really not that difficult in today's game).

I completely disagree about the draft being a crap shoot, so these GM's shouldn't face any fallout from them. I mean, if it's such a crap shoot, then you're basically saying these scouts and GMs should have no accountability. We've allowed a lot of bad shit to slide with BB over the years, IMO, as a talent evaluator on offense because he hit on Tom Brady, who then literally made everyone around him better.

I absolutely don't think it's unfair to give a GM 20 years at the helm, and say he has a blind spot there when these were the results:

Bethel Johnson in the 2nd, Chad Jackson in the 2nd, Brandon Tate in the 3rd, Taylor Price in the 3rd, Aaron Dobson in the 2nd, N'Keal Harry in the 1st, and Tyquan in the 2nd).

I mean, this isn't 1 or 2 misses, this is every pick missed (with the jury out on Tyquan, granted), and then you couple it with IMO, the golden age of wide receivers around the NFL, and I'm not willing to just brush off the draft as just luck or a crap shoot. I mean, if that's all it is, why even look at Big Boards or prognosticators, they're just guessing anyway. We should just grade them on the results. And those have been bad too for Bill when it comes to receiver, and non-existent since before Brady left when it comes to WR and TE.
 

ZMart100

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This is pretty much what I've been saying all along, and trying to use examples to prove it. The Pats have not tried to retool through the draft at skill positions (I mean, maybe RB, but that's really not that difficult in today's game).

I completely disagree about the draft being a crap shoot, so these GM's shouldn't face any fallout from them. I mean, if it's such a crap shoot, then you're basically saying these scouts and GMs should have no accountability. We've allowed a lot of bad shit to slide with BB over the years, IMO, as a talent evaluator on offense because he hit on Tom Brady, who then literally made everyone around him better.

I absolutely don't think it's unfair to give a GM 20 years at the helm, and say he has a blind spot there when these were the results:

Bethel Johnson in the 2nd, Chad Jackson in the 2nd, Brandon Tate in the 3rd, Taylor Price in the 3rd, Aaron Dobson in the 2nd, N'Keal Harry in the 1st, and Tyquan in the 2nd).

I mean, this isn't 1 or 2 misses, this is every pick missed (with the jury out on Tyquan, granted), and then you couple it with IMO, the golden age of wide receivers around the NFL, and I'm not willing to just brush off the draft as just luck or a crap shoot. I mean, if that's all it is, why even look at Big Boards or prognosticators, they're just guessing anyway. We should just grade them on the results. And those have been bad too for Bill when it comes to receiver, and non-existent since before Brady left when it comes to WR and TE.
Brandon Tate was a hit. Was he great? No, but a 127 game career is good in the 3rd. (Deion Branch was a major hit too, but he conveniently falls out of the 20 year window)

Not looking at Big Boards is a good plan. The Mel Kipers of the world will not have the resources that even a poorly funded NFL scouting department will have. They are going to be worse. They will be even worse for a team like the Patriots that doesn't share their evaluations with analysts. I do believe that it is possible to be demonstrably bad at drafting, but BB is no Matt Millen.

The sample size of WR and TE since Brady left is really small (I think that's the intent of the claim?). 3 players drafted in the top 3 rounds. The probability of hitting (as defined by finding a player who starts 3/4 of the games in the first 4 years) on a TE in the 90-100 range is very low, probably 10-20%. The same is true for a WR in the 50s, again 10-20%. What's the probability of missing on all 3? 51% assuming a 20% hit rate and 73% assuming a 10% hit rate. Missing on all 3 would not only be plausible, but likely in a probabilistic draft world.

Ironically one of BB's biggest misses at WR is a cause of the under investment in WR. If the Pats didn't miss so terribly on the evaluation of Edelman, they may have spent more resources on finding WRs.
 

lexrageorge

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This is pretty much what I've been saying all along, and trying to use examples to prove it. The Pats have not tried to retool through the draft at skill positions (I mean, maybe RB, but that's really not that difficult in today's game).

I completely disagree about the draft being a crap shoot, so these GM's shouldn't face any fallout from them. I mean, if it's such a crap shoot, then you're basically saying these scouts and GMs should have no accountability. We've allowed a lot of bad shit to slide with BB over the years, IMO, as a talent evaluator on offense because he hit on Tom Brady, who then literally made everyone around him better.

I absolutely don't think it's unfair to give a GM 20 years at the helm, and say he has a blind spot there when these were the results:

Bethel Johnson in the 2nd, Chad Jackson in the 2nd, Brandon Tate in the 3rd, Taylor Price in the 3rd, Aaron Dobson in the 2nd, N'Keal Harry in the 1st, and Tyquan in the 2nd).

I mean, this isn't 1 or 2 misses, this is every pick missed (with the jury out on Tyquan, granted), and then you couple it with IMO, the golden age of wide receivers around the NFL, and I'm not willing to just brush off the draft as just luck or a crap shoot. I mean, if that's all it is, why even look at Big Boards or prognosticators, they're just guessing anyway. We should just grade them on the results. And those have been bad too for Bill when it comes to receiver, and non-existent since before Brady left when it comes to WR and TE.
When you list only the misses while conveniently ignoring Branch, Givens, Edelman, Gronk, and, yes, Mitchell and Hernandez, then of course Bill's drafting record at WR/TE looks terrible.

The draft has a huge element of luck to it, especially once you get past the top half of the first round. Even the Steelers and Ravens miss on picks. Overall, 2nd round picks wash out at close to a 50% rate. Edelman's career was in the 99% percentile of players picked in the 7th round at any position, never mind WR. That doesn't mean that GM's shouldn't be held accountable for missing on their drafts, although it's unclear that teams really accomplish much by cycling through new GM's every 3-4 years (my guess is that an analytical study of the results would show that they do not).
 

BaseballJones

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They've got a star QB who just put up comparable numbers in year 3 as Mac did in his rookie season.

Mac Rookie year: 10-7 record, 67.6comp%, 22td, 13int, 3,800 yards, 92.5 rating, 5.1% sack rate
Herbert, year 3: 10-7 record, 68.2comp%, 24td, 10int, 4,739 yards, 93.5 rating, 5.2% sack rate.
I mean...this data may be true, but the two QBs are light years apart, and everyone knows that.

Herbert's first two years: 66.2%, 9,350 yds, 69 td, 25 int, 97.9 rating

His 2021 season featured 5,014 passing yards and 38 passing TD. Mac Jones hasn't even been in the same universe as Herbert, and doesn't have remotely the same tool kit to work with. Herbert is, by nearly every measure, already a star in this league. It appears that Mac Jones is fighting to make it as a starter.

To put it another way, there isn't a single person in Patriots Nation that wouldn't be over the moon THRILLED if the Chargers offered Herbert for Mac straight up. Thus indicating that we ALL know that Herbert is significantly better.

The analogy is that in the last 5 drafts, the Chargers have taken 1 WR (3rd rounder Josh Palmer), 1 TE (Tre McKitty in the 3rd round) and zero running backs in the first 3 rounds. Their star QB now has a 25-24 record in the NFL. I love Keenan Allen, but if folks here don't want Hopkins for his money at his age, they really wouldn't want Allen, who IMO, is the poor man's Hopkins right now. And Mike Williams is the rich man's Davonte Parker. I like Ekeler, but he's not a runner. The Chargers were 30th in Rushing yards per attempt last year although he was a decent 4.5, but he does his work in the passing game. The Chargers should have spent some capital on getting some more help at the skill positions for the injuries that inevitably happen (Williams has missed games each of the past 3 years, Allen missed like 7 games last year, and the guys behind them are flat out terrible).
Ekeler doesn't run as much because the Chargers don't run as much as a team - they rely on Herbert's passing more than the running game, but make no mistake - Ekeler is a terrific runner. Career 4.6 npc. 1,826 yards rushing and 25 rushing TD the past two seasons. He's a great pass catcher but he's also a really good runner. It's just that the Chargers favor the pass by a significant margin. 711 pass attempts compared with 404 rushing. New England, by contrast: 540 pass attempts and 425 rushes.

I agree they don't have much depth behind Allen and Williams, but Williams is really good (a "rich man's Parker" is a really good player) and Allen was hurt this past year but the previous 5 seasons he played 16, 16, 16, 14, and 16 games, and in all five of those seasons had 97 or more receptions (four times he had 100 or more). Guy is a stud as long as he stays healthy.

Again, there isn't anyone here who - based on talent - wouldn't trade the Pats' top 2 WR for Allen and Williams. They're SO much better than what NE has.

So again, I don't see any analogy between the Chargers situation and New Englands. Herbert, Allen, Williams, and Ekeler are so much better as a group than what NE has at those four spots (though I love Rhamondre as a RB), it isn't even funny.
 

lexrageorge

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Chargers offense has not been the problem. Their defense, OTOH, has been consistently in the bottom third of the league during Herbert's years, which has contributed to their run of playoff futility.
 

DJnVa

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I think BB is going to draft WRs and TEs in this draft too - he's meeting with a bunch of WRs in his top 30 visits. Mingo, Addison, Zay, etc. He's going to draft 1-2.

Lazar's latest: Patriots Draft Round-Up: Latest Rumors, Reported Visits, and Other Draft Tidbits

As Groh told Patriots.com at the NFL Scouting Combine in February, instant-impact receivers are now premium commodities. Gone are the days of getting by without a true number-one receiver who dictates game plans and establishes a proper pecking order in the passing game. The Patriots plan to improve offensively, which started with bringing back offensive coordinator Bill O’Brien immediately following a bumpy 2022 campaign, rides on a bounce-back season from third-year quarterback Mac Jones, who needs a go-to receiver to reach his potential.

New England's key figures seem to know how important it is to add a playmaker who can turn the tides offensively. Now, the tricky part is that they need to identify the right guy – buckle up.
Some discussion of the draft WRs follows.
 

SMU_Sox

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Lazar is all over the place. Dude needs a vacation.
I respect Lazar - and the reporter friends I have all speak highly of him as a great guy but yeah his draft content this year and takes on the Patriots have been all over the place. I also don't love his particular takes on players. Like, for example, claiming Latu (Bama TE) is a good route runner. Did Latu improve as a route runner over his years at Bama transitioning from the defensive side? Yes. But he is a below average route runner right now.
 
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Lazar is excellent, hardworking and insightful. Agree with all of his takes, some or none, he is passionate and informed. Huge add to patriots.com.
 

DJnVa

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Lazar is all over the place. Dude needs a vacation.
I don't think saying what the Pats HAVE done seems to not be working, and then saying they might seem to recognize it and here's why is really at loggerheads.

What's awesome is that we really only have a few more weeks to see what they're doing.

And we all know he's going punter in first round.
 

SMU_Sox

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[ head explodes]
The Patriots have met with Jordan Addison, Zay Flowers, and Jonathan Mingo on top 30 visits. Those guys are going day 1, 2, or Mingo day 3 early at the latest but probably top 75.

They are meeting with WRs up and down the draft board, at least 1 CB, and multiple edge rushers because they are getting older there and guys like Uche are a FA next year. They are going to meet with more than just one position. The year they drafted Harry they had him, Deebo, and AJ Brown in for top 30 visits. So the indicators are to expect a WR high.
 

SMU_Sox

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Given the history of draft prospects who visit the Patriots largely not getting drafted shouldn’t we take any reports of who’s visiting with a huge grain of salt or even hedge as someone they are unlikely to draft?

View: https://twitter.com/realalexbarth/status/1643638009491857408?s=46&t=Xi1WqL4t_j3ny3-dnAK8UQ
Quite the opposite. They routinely take 2-4 guys from their top 30 visits as well as draft the positions that they bring in. So, for example, last year they brought in a bunch of CBs including Jack Jones.
 

SMU_Sox

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Here are the guys they have drafted since 2018 who came on top 30 visits.

They don't publish the full list of top 30 visits so for most years we only know 10-15 names. And yet of those 10-15 names look how many got drafted.

2018: Braxton Berrios, Christian Sam, Duke Dawson
2019: N'Keal Harry, Yodny Cajuste, Joejuan Williams, (Stidham - some say he was some say he wasn't)
2020: COVID year - but they had private meetings with Onwenu and Uche.
2021: I can't find anything on top 30 visits for 2021, sorry.
2022: Jack Jones, Marcus Jones (only 10 names).
 

SMU_Sox

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View: https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1643987509830127617?s=20


BC WR Zay Flowers landed in Boston at 6 a.m. from an overnight Vegas flight and went straight to the #Patriots facility to spend the day learning the offense with Bill O’Brien on his visit, per source. New England has the No. 14 pick, three weeks from today.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1643990760763834371?s=20

Flowers also spent time learning the #Patriots offense at the Shrine Bowl, where he played both the X and the slot. So add another layer to things with the pre-draft visit.
 

Hatcher Steals Home

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When you list only the misses while conveniently ignoring Branch, Givens, Edelman, Gronk, and, yes, Mitchell and Hernandez, then of course Bill's drafting record at WR/TE looks terrible.
I’d throw James White in there as well as a pass catcher; he’s also missing Jakobi Meyers, David Patten, Ben Watson, and perhaps Daniel Graham on the bubble.
 

Jinhocho

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You could easily write a story based on publicly available information that Mac Jones, in his second season, lost the confidence of his coaches, many of his teammates, a portion of the fan base, and even the view of him as the long term answer as QB for the pats to an unheralded rookie bailey Zappe. Now, in his third season, Jones faces a make or break year to try and salvage his future in new England and potentially even as a NFL starter.

You could easily insert such things as temper tantrums, challenging and undermining the coaching staff, and subpar results on the field. Probably follow it up with fellow problem children Meyers, Harris, and hoyer are also gone, and the pats brought in my way or the highway oc Bob...

I think most of us want Mac to succeed and this all to be a speed bump, but a reasonable person could think just the opposite and have a good chance of being right.
 

BigSoxFan

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View: https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1643987509830127617?s=20


BC WR Zay Flowers landed in Boston at 6 a.m. from an overnight Vegas flight and went straight to the #Patriots facility to spend the day learning the offense with Bill O’Brien on his visit, per source. New England has the No. 14 pick, three weeks from today.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1643990760763834371?s=20

Flowers also spent time learning the #Patriots offense at the Shrine Bowl, where he played both the X and the slot. So add another layer to things with the pre-draft visit.
Modest trade down to get another 2/3 and landing Zay in the late teens/early 20s is my hope here.
 

E5 Yaz

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Not sure if he as a different “source”, but McCourty said that on WEEI a few weeks ago.
I listen to the Dan Patrick Show every day -- it's the only "sports talk" I listen to outside of PTI -- and if Dan has a failing, it's that he often finds, or is fed, information that has appeared elsewhere and repeats the same stories. Maybe he backs it up with calls on his own, but it never varies from what you can find out there already. The number of times he talks about something "that I was thinking about today" that came straight from King's Monday column, for instance, could be a drinking game.
 

DJnVa

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Who could fill that spot on the depth chart? Here’s a list of the currently available free agent QBs:

Matt Ryan
Carson Wentz
Teddy Bridgewater
Mason Rudolph
Blaine Gabbert
Chase Daniel
Joe Flacco
Trevor Siemian
Brandon Allen
Josh Johnson
John Wolford
Brett Rypien
Bryce Perkins
 

Andy Merchant

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That's great. :)

My Scarnecchia memory:

My brother and I went to training camp with our kids 10+ years ago (saw Ochocinco catch a TD pass) and when the players left the field and security was trying to get everyone to leave, Scarnecchia was the last man standing. He made sure that every kid who wanted an autograph or photo got one, and the security guards actually backed off when he effectively told them to go screw. :)
 

SMU_Sox

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Modest trade down to get another 2/3 and landing Zay in the late teens/early 20s is my hope here.
My hope as well.

One thing I was thinking about was this is a tough OT class in the draft. I wouldn’t be surprised if they took a flyer on someone late 2 or 3 and invested more next year. It’s a glaring need but the depth of the class isn’t great. If they don’t go there early they might wait until next year. You can never say with certainty that next years class is better but there are 5-6 seniors coming out and at least a couple of juniors who almost came out this year who are round 1-2 material already.

They always could go OT early this year but if they don’t it would be the one position that I can see them punting a bit or making a draft day trade for another OT veteran (roster is pretty full though).
 

Justthetippett

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Aug 9, 2015
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My hope as well.

One thing I was thinking about was this is a tough OT class in the draft. I wouldn’t be surprised if they took a flyer on someone late 2 or 3 and invested more next year. It’s a glaring need but the depth of the class isn’t great. If they don’t go there early they might wait until next year. You can never say with certainty that next years class is better but there are 5-6 seniors coming out and at least a couple of juniors who almost came out this year who are round 1-2 material already.

They always could go OT early this year but if they don’t it would be the one position that I can see them punting a bit or making a draft day trade for another OT veteran (roster is pretty full though).
This makes a lot of sense. I don't think they'll reach for an OT in R1 if they have another player rated significantly higher. DB seems most likely to me given how the board is projected in most mocks. Then hit the wave of R2 WRs, possibly with a trade-up like last year. Mine for OL gold later in the draft. I don't know if it's the best approach, but it fits their MO from past drafts.
 

Harry Hooper

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Trace Mcsorley wasn't on that list

Well, there's this from 2019 in the Star-Ledger:

Penn State quarterback Trace McSorley turned down the opportunity to work out with the defensive backs during the 2019 NFL Scouting Combine in Indianapolis, according to ESPN.

However, if the college quarterback were to make a position change, New Orleans Saints coach Sean Payton thinks the move would be to wide receiver.

"When I looked at him, my first thought was, ‘I wonder if he can be [Julian] Edelman?’ I wondered if he could be a versatile kind of guy,” Payton said to Football Morning in America’s Peter King during the combine.

McSorley, like Edelman, offered elite speed at the quarterback position during his college career. NFL scouts clearly are intrigued by his athleticism, as he was asked to work out at a position that requires speed and change-of-direction ability.

That said, wide receiver would probably make more sense for McSorley, given his understanding of route concepts and offensive signal-calling. McSorley wants to stay at quarterback -- according to ESPN -- but if that doesn’t work, following in the footsteps of the reigning Super Bowl MVP wouldn’t be a bad thing.
 

Salva135

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Oct 19, 2008
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I don't think it's really that complicated this season. Either this job is Mac's or he's done. Anything close to a back and forth like last season would be a disaster.

I don't mind BB leaving the door open to push Mac, or Mac and Zappe both feeling confident they can earn something. But Mac "winning" is the only good outcome. Otherwise we start over with another QB investment, and I don't know if that involves BB.