2019 Dolphins: Trust the Process

Michelle34B

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The Eagles have to be going hard after Minkah. Malcolm Jenkins wanted to rework his contract this summer, and it went nowhere. The Eagles are up against the cap, but Minkah is dirt cheap. 1.2m this year, 2.2 next, and 2.7 the following. His fifth year option is a non-top ten first round pick, so that year should be 7m-7.5m. These two front offices have worked together in the past on trades, and Minkah is so similar to Malcolm Jenkins, I'd have to imagine more is going on behind the scenes.

All that said, the Dolphins have no reason to trade him unless it is worth paying a $13.5m signing bonus. I have liked the Dolphins' reaction to this. He's a 22-year old kid that was pretty humbled by a week one loss, and has to be reminded that the team comes first.
 

RetractableRoof

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If the guy doesn’t like being asked to play versatile roles in Flores’s defense... I can’t imagine Belichick would look favorably upon that.
The Eagles have to be going hard after Minkah. Malcolm Jenkins wanted to rework his contract this summer, and it went nowhere. The Eagles are up against the cap, but Minkah is dirt cheap. 1.2m this year, 2.2 next, and 2.7 the following. His fifth year option is a non-top ten first round pick, so that year should be 7m-7.5m. These two front offices have worked together in the past on trades, and Minkah is so similar to Malcolm Jenkins, I'd have to imagine more is going on behind the scenes.

All that said, the Dolphins have no reason to trade him unless it is worth paying a $13.5m signing bonus. I have liked the Dolphins' reaction to this. He's a 22-year old kid that was pretty humbled by a week one loss, and has to be reminded that the team comes first.
I think these are related. The guy is playing on a dirt cheap contract. Most athletes understand (especially in football where injuries are the norm) that in order to get the golden contract they need to put up numbers, make plays. Flores is asking him to play out of position, in an undersized body for some of the other positions. This leads to additional injury risk, looking bad as he is playing new roles. If you are playing for BB (or Saban), you can have confidence the result might be a ring. For a first year coach, that's a bigger ask. I don't see him as a malcontent, as much as trying to preserve his career. The NFL isn't exactly known for taking care of its players.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Minkah has a TON of potential. Any competitor that gets him gets a queen on the chessboard for roster flexibility at a premium position.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Obtaining a player like Minkah makes sense for the Pats, but I cannot imagine the Fins dealing him here if they get remotely comparable offers from other teams.
 

DrewDawg

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Obtaining a player like Minkah makes sense for the Pats, but I cannot imagine the Fins dealing him here if they get remotely comparable offers from other teams.
Hey---you got to pay a little tribute up the pecking order.

25958
 

Reverend

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Obtaining a player like Minkah makes sense for the Pats, but I cannot imagine the Fins dealing him here if they get remotely comparable offers from other teams.
But does Miami currently care about such things right now? Tanking would seem to alter the calculus on things like not helping others in the division, yeah?
 

axx

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one down, 31 to go. I wouldn't build around too, I'd wait for the Clemson QB. But I bet someone would be willing to pay a lot for Tua
Funny, I was under the impression Lawrence was eligible after this year. Sucks for him because the 21 draft is going to be something because of the threat of the lockout.
 

Clears Cleaver

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so Minkah's mom was complaining publicly about how he was being positioned in camp. He's drafted as a FS who complains publicly about having to play in the box because he's too small (Flores evidently requires the FS to sometime play in the box, who knew, especially if reshad Jones is out) and Minkah struggles to play boundary CB because he struggled to play press out there (Flores plays more than they did ever in past) and maybe not fast enough in space. so his best position is as a slot corner. and last week he got absolutely torched twice deep while there.

interesting article here: https://www.thephinsider.com/2019/5/29/18644392/miami-dolphins-minkah-fitzpatrick-cornerback-safety-linebacker-position

I agree you should always find a way to take advantage of your best players talents, etc. but I am not exactly sold that Minkah is all that he's cut out to be. I think he's actually ONLY good playing the slot corner (which is likely the fourth or fifth most important DB spot?) There's a reason why Miami is reportedly only getting offers of third round picks for the guy?
 

Clears Cleaver

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Funny, I was under the impression Lawrence was eligible after this year. Sucks for him because the 21 draft is going to be something because of the threat of the lockout.
maybe take that back about Lawrence. he has been putrid tonight vs Syracuse. lol
 

LesterFan

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Outscored by 92 points in two home games. CBS showed it's the worst differential through 2 home games ever.

Opened as 21-point underdogs on the road vs Dallas next week. College level spread.
 

RedOctober3829

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It would surprise if Minkah Fitzpatrick makes it to the Dallas Cowboys game next Sunday. The Dolphins have been talking with three teams who are seriously interested in the former No. 11 overall selection, according to sources.

The Dallas Cowboys, interested early on, have dropped out of the derby and would have to do much work to make up the ground they’ve lost to those three teams.

The Dolphins are certain -- certain! -- they’re going to get a first-round draft pick for the defensive back. And they’re confident they might get an extra piece of compensation in the deal as well -- perhaps a player, or maybe a lower-round draft pick.

That’s how far along the Minkah trade talks are, which is to say, very far along.

Barring a total derailment of these negotiations, the Dolphins will hold three first-round draft picks for 2020.

Who are the 3 teams that would give up a 1st and a player for Minkah Fitzpatrick? KC? Philly? Rams?
 

InstaFace

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KC's picks are worth a lot less than (say) Philly's, and Andy Reid doesn't really trade firsts.

I'm sure you can get a decent deal for him but it'd probably require taking some 2019 salary dump in order to boost the picks. You have a TON of cap space for this point in the season, $32M per OverTheCap, so maybe that's a way to add talent is to just solve other teams' cap problems at a premium.
 

RedOctober3829

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KC's picks are worth a lot less than (say) Philly's, and Andy Reid doesn't really trade firsts.

I'm sure you can get a decent deal for him but it'd probably require taking some 2019 salary dump in order to boost the picks. You have a TON of cap space for this point in the season, $32M per OverTheCap, so maybe that's a way to add talent is to just solve other teams' cap problems at a premium.
That's why I was thinking somebody that is a contender and has a clear need of help in the secondary. From their perspectives, a low 1st is worth giving up for Fitzpatrick if it means dumping a bad contract on Miami.
 

rymflaherty

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Not going to lie, while I’ve been vocal about my support for the full tear down, I kind of thought there’d be a core of young guys that would be getting experience and that we’d be able to get excited about. It is a bit concerning that it is becoming a complete blank slate, and Grier’s drafts haven’t proven fruitful yet (to be kind).
 

Rough Carrigan

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Poor Josh Rosen. What terrible situations he's had. Arizona last year and now this. He dropped at least two passes in there right into his receivers hands, one down the right sideline then later one down the left that his guys flubbed and dropped.
 
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I just finished the Game Pass of that game and Rosen looked good to me. No question they should be starting him every game the rest of the way. Can’t believe they have Dallas on the road next week. Yikes.
 

InstaFace

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They may suck on the field but BFlo is killing it in the trade market.
a brilliant trade, great value there. Among the rumored contenders, the only one whose 2020 first-round pick I'd rather have is Washington.

We're witnessing a first-year NFL head coach do a Full Hinkie. I didn't think you could go Full Hinkie in the NFL. As a Pats fan I hope it doesn't work, but as a sports fan I kinda wouldn't be too upset if it did, like 3 years from now.
 
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mauf

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The way the Steelers are going that 2020 pick could be the one that gets Tua
This storyline is hiding in plain view. I’m not sure the books will be hip to the fact that the Steelers suck when they host Cincy in Week 4, and they host the tanktastic Dolphins too, but those might be the only remaining games where Pittsburgh will be favored. i dont think they’re likely to go 3-13, but it’s a lot more plausible than most people think.
 

InstaFace

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I suppose we should assume the latter, except that he gave absolutely no indication of this in any of the past 3 seasons in charge. First year, 10-6, makes the WC. 2nd and 3rd years, 6 and 7 wins. Definitely wasn't tearing down anything, and probably believed that they were close.

...and now, this. What's the variable that changed? It's not Grier. It's either Flores, or Stephen Ross had an accident like the one that turned Harvey Dent into Two-Face.
 

WheresDewey

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With average luck and basic competence, the Fins should be a decent team in 2-3 years with that windfall of picks. As a Pats fan, I hope they don't, but as a football fan, I'll enjoy watching it.
 

mauf

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With average luck and basic competence, the Fins should be a decent team in 2-3 years with that windfall of picks. As a Pats fan, I hope they don't, but as a football fan, I'll enjoy watching it.
I dunno. I like this trade in isolation, because I think Pittsburgh’s 1st will be a top-10 pick, but there’s a reason why tanking isn’t a thing in the NFL like it is in MLB and (especially) the NBA. Culture is vitally important in football, and losing on purpose is incompatible with building a good culture.
 

sodenj5

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I dunno. I like this trade in isolation, because I think Pittsburgh’s 1st will be a top-10 pick, but there’s a reason why tanking isn’t a thing in the NFL like it is in MLB and (especially) the NBA. Culture is vitally important in football, and losing on purpose is incompatible with building a good culture.
When there’s no culture in place, you can go scorched earth. Most of the players that will be on Miami’s roster in 4 years from now will be coming from the next 2 drafts.

For those asking, this is 100% Chris Greir executing Ross’s vision. Ross had a revelation and said he was tired of spending money with no results and gave Greir the green light to tear down the roster and rebuild the team to be sustainable.

Greir has put on a masterclass in getting value for these assets. I can’t believe Pittsburgh was willing to part with their first after learning Ben was out for the season. The only way Greir is able to do this is if he has the full support of the owner.

Flores knew what he signed up for coming in. One year of pain for a blank slate and a mountain of cash and draft capital. Does it suck right now? Sure. But Miami is about to hit the biggest reset button the league has ever seen.
 
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mauf

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When there’s no culture in place, you can go scorched earth. Most of the players that will be on Miami’s roster in 4 years from now will be coming from the next 2 drafts.

For those asking, this is 100% Chris Greir executing Ross’s vision. Ross had a revelation and said he was tired of spending money with no results and gave Greir the green light to tear down the roster and rebuild the team to be sustainable.

Greir has put on a masterclass in getting value for these assets. I can’t believe Pittsburgh was willing to part with their first after learning Ben was out for the season. The only way Greir is able to do this is if he has the full support of the owner.

Flores knew what he signed up for coming in. One year of pain for a blank slate and a mountain of cash and draft capital. Does it suck right now? Sure. But Miami is about to hit the biggest reset button the league has ever seen.
I could have expressed myself better. Really, I meant to make a narrow point — NFL teams generally don’t tank because it undermines the most important part of rebuilding outside of landing a franchise QB, without guaranteeing you the latter (because it’s a lot harder to spot the next Aaron Rodgers than the next LeBron James).

It may be that fitting the reset button is Miami’s best option, but that just underscores how bad the situation was allowed to get over the past few years. Put another way: Cincinnati* is more likely to reach a Super Bowl than Miami over the next 5-6 years.

*- You could substitute any team with a first-year coach that isn’t likely to make the playoffs but also won’t contend for the #1 pick absent a string of injuries, and my point still holds.
 

AlNipper49

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I’m not sure what that culture gets you. The draft can get you two things - access to an elite QB and players who have 4-5 years of not commanding compensation directly tied to performance. It brings with it risk and the need for developmental resources.

It’s why tanking in the NFL sucks - the Dolphins may very well get an ‘elite’ WB but if you don’t have a system to slot him and your little party of cost controlled players into then you’re looking at significant risk. Throw in trusting a first year coach then you’re also easing the risk profile pretty significantly. I wouldn’t be comfortable with this if I were a Dolphins fan. If it works out it’ll be in spite of the planning, not because of it.
 

sodenj5

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It’s why tanking in the NFL sucks - the Dolphins may very well get an ‘elite’ WB but if you don’t have a system to slot him and your little party of cost controlled players into then you’re looking at significant risk. Throw in trusting a first year coach then you’re also easing the risk profile pretty significantly. I wouldn’t be comfortable with this if I were a Dolphins fan. If it works out it’ll be in spite of the planning, not because of it.
I think that’s easy to say when you’ve had 2 decades of the same QB and head coach.

Gase wasn’t the answer. Tannehill wasn’t the answer. They had a roster full of mediocre talent and some bad contracts.

Could they have played Fitzpatrick, kept Tunsil, kept Minkah, and won 4 or 5 games? Sure. What would that net them? The second or third best QB in the draft? Anyone other than maybe the Giants are taking Tua with the first overall pick.

Personally, I like that they’ve gone 100% all in on the tank/rebuild. No more half measures. Is this guaranteed success? No. But they’ve positioned themselves to have the best chance of success from 2020 forward.
 

InstaFace

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I'm not even sure what Nip is advocating for. Keep talent because culture and familiarity / team chemistry? He seems to be saying that culture has little value (which is an argument to make the trades and get the picks), and then in the next breath says that the young players combined with a young coach are too risky (which is an argument to keep the talent and aim for incremental improvement).
 

DrewDawg

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a brilliant trade, great value there. Among the rumored contenders, the only one whose 2020 first-round pick I'd rather have is Washington.

We're witnessing a first-year NFL head coach do a Full Hinkle. I didn't think you could go Full Hinkle in the NFL. As a Pats fan I hope it doesn't work, but as a sports fan I kinda wouldn't be too upset if it did, like 3 years from now.
Hinkie.

In fairness they're both fun to say.
 

AlNipper49

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I'm not even sure what Nip is advocating for. Keep talent because culture and familiarity / team chemistry? He seems to be saying that culture has little value (which is an argument to make the trades and get the picks), and then in the next breath says that the young players combined with a young coach are too risky (which is an argument to keep the talent and aim for incremental improvement).
Sticking a top young QB is an unproven system can be a recipe for disaster. There is a fine line, IMHO, with burning down the house and building strategically. There has been a lot of burning and what strategy exist will remain to be seen.

I’m in favor of collecting draft collateral as a strategy but with the disclaimer that doing so in a stable system carries with it a higher chance of success. The system in Miami is an unknown as it gets.

Take for example Rosen. If the idea has been to tank to build draft capital then why get him at all? It’s logically inconsistent with what has happened since.

With that said, I understand the counterpoint that one of the less desirables outcomes is sustained mediocrity. I guess that I can buy into that too.
 

Van Everyman

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I continue to think this isn't some great masterplan on the part of Ross/Grier/Flores but kind of a series of opportunistic moves that began when the Texans came calling, picked up speed when the team got walloped in historic fashion in the first two weeks, and is continuing now that the talent remaining is wanting out.

Could it work out? Sure -- everything can change in this league if you get a good quarterback. Suddenly, people want to come to play for you (hello, Cleveland). And if you stockpile enough draft picks, only a few of them *need* to work out. But as a lot of people have said, tanking and long rebuilds are really hard in the NFL -- particularly when you add in the need to develop the guys they draft. That won't happen overnight. And in a league that doesn't have guaranteed contracts, I'm not really sure tanking is necessary either.
 

Saints Rest

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When there’s no culture in place, you can go scorched earth. Most of the players that will be on Miami’s roster in 4 years from now will be coming from the next 2 drafts.

For those asking, this is 100% Chris Greir executing Ross’s vision. Ross had a revelation and said he was tired of spending money with no results and gave Greir the green light to tear down the roster and rebuild the team to be sustainable.

Greir has put on a masterclass in getting value for these assets. I can’t believe Pittsburgh was willing to part with their first after learning Ben was out for the season. The only way Greir is able to do this is if he has the full support of the owner.

Flores knew what he signed up for coming in. One year of pain for a blank slate and a mountain of cash and draft capital. Does it suck right now? Sure. But Miami is about to hit the biggest reset button the league has ever seen.
IN addition, the Dolphins will likely have a lot of cap space to bring in the sort of veterans who can serve as the sowers of the Flores culture. I'm mainly thinking of players, especially defensive players, who might not be on the 2020 Pats but who can become the Anthony Pleasants, Bryan Coxes, and Bobby Hamiltons, of the 2020 Dolphins.
 

sodenj5

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I continue to think this isn't some great masterplan on the part of Ross/Grier/Flores but kind of a series of opportunistic moves that began when the Texans came calling, picked up speed when the team got walloped in historic fashion in the first two weeks, and is continuing now that the talent remaining is wanting out.

Could it work out? Sure -- everything can change in this league if you get a good quarterback. Suddenly, people want to come to play for you (hello, Cleveland). And if you stockpile enough draft picks, only a few of them *need* to work out. But as a lot of people have said, tanking and long rebuilds are really hard in the NFL -- particularly when you add in the need to develop the guys they draft. That won't happen overnight. And in a league that doesn't have guaranteed contracts, I'm not really sure tanking is necessary either.
I think, to an extent, you’re correct. I believe Miami didn’t set out with the intention of trading Tunsil or Minkah, however they got bowled over with an offer for Tunsil, and Minkah asked out.

I think in both instances, Greir did a fantastic job maximizing their value.

The franchise turnaround has to start somewhere. What they were doing was neither successful nor sustainable. 5 first rounders in the next two years is the best crack at forming a nucleus or core that can be the foundation for your franchise moving forward.
 

sodenj5

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Chris Greir just had a press conference. Few highlights:

They tried several times to talk to Minkah and convince him to stay. Ross himself reached out to Minkah. Couldn’t be talked out of it.

Tunsil said he would trade himself for 2 firsts and a second.

Ownership and Flores 100% on board with everything happening.

Have had discussions regarding drafting a QB in 2020.

Plan to keep developing Rosen and will let the coaching staff decide if/when he starts. Says he’s done a good job and works hard.