I will be absolutely shocked if Jonathan Kraft lets BB change teams during the duration of his existing contract with the Pats without getting some compensation.
This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots
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That said, I am a little curious about how Belichick's contract reads. I'm sure it has language that protects his authority as GM, but if it didn't and Kraft could force a new GM with decision making authority on him, then yeah, I could see Belichick wanting out immediately and some kind of trade happening.
But I doubt that is the case.
But I doubt that is the case.
You do not let an asset go for nothing. If other teams are expressing interest in BB, Kraft would be insane to just let him walk. And I don't think there's any love lost between Jonathan and BB, so I don't think Jonathan is going to mind extracting some value for BB even if it annoys BB and even if he's not really that interested in keeping BB around.
My guess is that Belichick would have a more robust market than people think. I suspect some owners would quickly move off coaches who seem fairly secure if they got a chance to hire BB. That doesn't mean its a good move but his stock feels high enough that there will be good demand for his services.
Ok a little comic relief, Bill Burr on Rich Eisen talking about how stupid the whole “Fire Belichick” angle is:
If BB isn't in a hurry to move on or doesn't want to be constrained in how he moves on and Kraft wants someone else running his $7 billion dollar organization, how is that going to work?
I understand extracting value when a coach is under contract, wants to work for someone else, and the organization he's with wants to keep him.
I don't understand the thought process for extracting value if a coach is willing to stay where he is at and the organization wants to move on.
Obviously it is possible that BB and Kraft both want to move on. But that wasn't the scenario I brought up earlier.
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I'm surprised you don't agree:
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Totally aligned with Burr. I think BB still has it and it's really fucking hard to win when your QB is sabotaging the team.
The QB situation is a mis-step, but it all makes sense with how it unfolded. I think he's earned one mis-step and I have full confidence he'll fix it. In no way do I want to move on from BB.
I'm guessing 1999-2000. Factor in January weather and we are talking a stadium 1/2 full at best for that game.
When people talk about trading BB to the Giants or anywhere for that matter, is the assumption that BB will function as the director of football operations or is he going just to coach? I have a hard time imagining the Giants firing both Daboll and Schoen and giving BB complete control of the team. On the other hand, I can't imagine BB being OK with just coaching and not having complete control of personnel decisions and ultimately taking orders from Joe Schoen. Neither scenario seems to make sense.
To me, he is taking over the whole football operation if he’s going to another team. In a few years, he’d transition to being the football czar like Parcells.
Mara and Tisch canning a coach and GM a year after a playoff appearance to hand total control to Bill doesn’t seem like their style, to say the least. Discussing hypos is fine, but it’s not plausible. And maybe Callahan wasn’t suggesting otherwise (I didn’t hear the segment), but it’s fair game to assess the plausibility of the various scenarios we are gonna hear over the next 50 days or so.
Re: McAdoo - which I’m sure someone will raise - his benching of Eli late in the year killed him. And Jerry Reese got fired as GM after like a decade in the position and presiding over 4 losing seasons in 5 - deciding BOTH Schoen and Daboll should go after year 2 would be surprising.
Re: McAdoo - which I’m sure someone will raise - his benching of Eli late in the year killed him. And Jerry Reese got fired as GM after like a decade in the position and presiding over 4 losing seasons in 5 - deciding BOTH Schoen and Daboll should go after year 2 would be surprising.
Tho my theory has been that Mara was behind Deflategate so maybe there’s a “Fuck Kraft” angle to him getting Bill. Then again, if compensation is required maybe the idea of sending Bill to the Giants is DOA.
I was talking to someone in the mirror this morning if they thought we should go in hopes of seeing the end of the streak over the Jets
Burr spitting truths there one after the other. Elect him Spokesman of Patriot Fandom imo.
Maybe so, but I really think BB lives to coach. He insisted on having GM duties as a way of having (as coach) total power over the players. He did not want to get submarined by players going upstairs to the GM as happened in Foxborough to Pete Carroll.
I liked his general indignation and he's obviously right that the past success was due to both BB and TB12, but if you can only have BB and that's half the equation, I'm actually less convinced you have to continue to stick with him instead of taking a chance on a "guy with no championships". That guy was BB once. Krafts need to evaluate things based on where the franchise is now, not where it has been. Only question that needs to be answered is who would be best on opening day in 2024.
Well in his mid-70's he's going to have to start to slow down at some point and I think giving up the day to day grind of being a coach would be the way to do so.
I'm not sure what makes him different than any other sports radio caller. If anything, he sounds just as dumb as the people he's calling dumb.
The perfect analog for me here is Pop. They're so similar - only about a year and a half apart in age, they won a bunch of championships with different rosters over multiple decades, and when their star talent wanted leave, they opted to try to keep going for playoffs, which resulted in multiple years of middling success before sadly bottoming out.
You could sit there as a Spurs fan after last season and say "Oh, you morons want to get rid of this guy, he's a genius, he led us to all these titles, he's going to give us the best chance at winning in the future, you're all dumb for thinking he's past his prime, he's going to get Wemby and kick ass." Okay, yeah, we've had a lot of that in these threads recently. But do you think Spurs fans are feeling awesome about that now? Despite the amazing rookie with a 7% block rate, they're one of the league's worst defenses... their only good lineup is Wemby at Center and they never play Wemby at center... their young talent around him is stagnating... Do you think they'd rather the Spurs tried to find the next Mark Daignault or Will Hardy or someone of that ilk? I would if I were them.
Nothing gold can stay. It doesn't take away from their amazing runs to believe that someone hungrier with a different perspective and, yes, younger would lead to better opportunities for the franchise over the next 5-10 years. It's going to happen eventually, and probably sooner rather than later.
Pretty sure it's just Belichick at this point. I think BoB had GM duties when he was coach in Houston, but I could be wrong.
He was given them when Rasputerby pushed the previous guy out and then he traded Hopkins (a deal I still think had Jack’s fingerprints all over it), the team collapsed and he got canned.
It doesn’t take away from their amazing runs, and no sane Pats fan would look at that run as tarnished if BB left (in whatever fashion)
but I do think the majority of Pats fans have been so insulated from the realities of what a “normal” team looks like for 20+ years that the anti-BB crowd is largely deluding themselves with the idea that some young hotshot coordinator (Ben Johnson) or college coach or Mayo is going to revitalize the Pats and get them back to glory.
It’s been a long long time since the Pats had an outright bad head coach, and as much as people bash Bb’s drafting, the guy before him (Grier) burned through high draft picks with dud after dud and injury busts.
For 20 years many Pats fans dunked on Tomlin, Harbaugh, Dungy, Carroll, Payton even Andy Reid as overrated or carried by their QB or defense. Yet, those guys are probably the best coaches of the last 20 years. The chances of getting a guy of that stature are slim, let alone a John Fox or Lovie Smith. Who are all these young coaches who have come into the league and proved themselves to be quality coaches? McVay? He has his moments but he was badly outclassed in SB53 and is on pace for back to back double digit loss seasons despite having (albeit banged up) plenty of offensive talent and a hall of fame defender. He’s the best of the bunch and has the ring. Shanahan and McDermott haven’t won anything. Siriani and McDaniel perhaps but too early to tell.
Since BB has come to New England there have probably been 100 head coaches come and go. Most of them have all been guys we’d hate to have at the helm. Same for GM’s.
it’s not an argument to stick with Bb if the game truly has passed him by, but it’s really unlikely the next guy is “the” guy. Maybe not even the guy after that or the guy after that. Buffalo has gone through 10 head coaches since Levy left (8 plus 2 interim). Shanahan is the 49ers 8th coach since their last Super Bowl win. McDaniel is Miami’s 12th since Shula.
it’s really hard to win in the NFL and even harder to sustain your success. Mediocrity, coaching changes every 4-6 years and countless bad draft picks are the norm. Given how angry and pessimistic Pats fans are now, I shudder to think what a 20 or 30 year run like Buffalo or Dallas has had. Even what the Seahawks and Steelers have had since their last Lombardi would be a disaster for a lot of Pats fans seemingly
I wonder why people keep saying this as if other fanbases like Buffalo's and especially Dallas' were just content and happy go lucky over their years of ineptitude and just approached every year with pure joy and hopefulness, unlike the sad, miserable Pats fans.
A large portion of Steelers' fans want to fire Tomlin and he's never even had a losing season, nevermind a 2-8 start.
I'm onboard. If another team wants to pay for Belichick's swan song, great. Better a year early than a year late.
Apologies if this point has been made previously, but in 2017 Belichick allegedly said to Urban Meyer that at this point in his career, he only wanted to coach players he liked. This sentiment is so anti-Belichickian BB ought to have fired himself for saying it. The real BB always did what's best for the team, not himself.
I have great love, respect, and appreciation for BB. But there's no clearer example of him having lost his tyrannical edge than this quote.
That quote has gotten a lot of mileage. I wonder if he even said it, let alone believes it. I think he has plenty of motivation left and he's the same hardass as ever. He just needs to field a talented roster of players who don't shit themselves in crunch time. He may not have enough time here to put that together.I'm onboard. If another team wants to pay for Belichick's swan song, great. Better a year early than a year late.
Apologies if this point has been made previously, but in 2017 Belichick allegedly said to Urban Meyer that at this point in his career, he only wanted to coach players he liked. This sentiment is so anti-Belichickian BB ought to have fired himself for saying it. The real BB always did what's best for the team, not himself.
I have great love, respect, and appreciation for BB. But there's no clearer example of him having lost his tyrannical edge than this quote.
I don't think the argument from the anti-BB folks (on this board at least) is "Change in the organization will automatically lead to winning seasons." The argument is that the risk of finding a new coach and GM is less than the risk of keeping BB on to do both.
My question to you is: what would make you want to move off BB? Another season like this? Another two in a row? Nothing? Genuinely curious because surely there is a line for everyone.
Note that the quote came from Urban Meyer's recollection of what was said between him and Belichick, and Meyer is not exactly the brightest bulb in the room. It doesn't read like a quote to be taken literally, or even at face value.I'm onboard. If another team wants to pay for Belichick's swan song, great. Better a year early than a year late.
Apologies if this point has been made previously, but in 2017 Belichick allegedly said to Urban Meyer that at this point in his career, he only wanted to coach players he liked. This sentiment is so anti-Belichickian BB ought to have fired himself for saying it. The real BB always did what's best for the team, not himself.
I have great love, respect, and appreciation for BB. But there's no clearer example of him having lost his tyrannical edge than this quote.
I was listening to Paul Perillo and he was saying that this is the first time in 20 years that the pats are basically playing for nothing at this point in the season. With the exception of 2020 they have been in it till the end and at least had a chance of making the playoffs every year during that time. Thinking on that it seems nuts they could even consider firing him this off season
But the world is brimming with guys who could step in and lead this team back to its winning ways.
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Not when the entire roster blows and the coaching staff is made up of family and friends of Bill. The operation has been going downhill for 4 years. It isn’t going to get any better unless they change this entire operation. They are lucky to have a half dozen plus guys that are even considered building blocks.
I for one don’t really care about winning every Sunday. I’m fine with letting Bill tinker and go out on his own terms. If it means a chunk of mediocrity - so be it.
I'm not in any rush to see them be a top team again, of course I want it to happen - but teams often go through lulls and we are in the first one since basically last century. I’m fine with seeing what happens, even if it takes awhile.
I could be weird in that way, but I got enough satisfaction for 20 years that I’m not too worried about the next 5.
I'm not in any rush to see them be a top team again, of course I want it to happen - but teams often go through lulls and we are in the first one since basically last century. I’m fine with seeing what happens, even if it takes awhile.
I could be weird in that way, but I got enough satisfaction for 20 years that I’m not too worried about the next 5.
This isn’t about being a top team for me, it’s that the entertainment product is absolute dog shit. BB has built a roster that has mediocre, at best, talent in most areas, the style of play is boring as hell, and they make a ton of stupid decisions/plays on a weekly basis. It’s not enjoyable to watch at all.
BB can go 0 for his next 50 and we’d still all collectively owe he and Brady so much. But, I don’t blame people who are sick of watching this crap product.
People want different things from sports. For a while, I was all about the hardware. After the Boston sports run, I’m mostly just about entertainment (Celtics rare exception because I really want the Jay’s to get their ring). I’m a BC fan so I can only take so much boring, uninspired football with repeated mistakes and crap talent.
I can deal with losses, I won’t tolerate multiple years of boring football with no talent to dream on.
Pardon My Take had Mike Florio as a guest on their most recent podcast and he essentially echoed the BB-is-still-a-great-coach but needs a GM narrative. He admits its just "informed speculation" but he seemed to think that the contract tidbit that hit the media earlier in the season was someone close to the Krafts letting the league know that if if another club wants BB, they are going to have to pay up via trade. He mentioned the Bucs, Chargers and Commanders amongst possible destinations. To be clear, Florio has been beating this drum for a few weeks now and this stuff tends to garner eyeballs so you have discount it.
That said, the release of BB's new deal was done for a reason. Was it done to let the media and fans know that BB is not going anywhere? Or to let other franchises know that they will have to trade for him? Something else?
That said, the release of BB's new deal was done for a reason. Was it done to let the media and fans know that BB is not going anywhere? Or to let other franchises know that they will have to trade for him? Something else?
Call me crazy, but I think BB stays, we have a top pick and the Patriots are on "Hard Knocks" this summer and MH Sr is an advisor to the team joining his son. The Patriot Way is back open for business.
Barring the Mandela effect, I'm positive he said something similar in one of the dozens of in-season Patriot programs I watched when he was mic'd up.
I don’t care purely about Ws and Ls either at this point but you want to at least feel like you’re building toward something. In 2021 it felt that way. Since mid-2022 it hasn’t. They have few long-term pieces.
You probably only need one hand to count the amount of long term pieces they have. That’s how bad it is.
The pats have always built a team roster that can seem light. Even when they were good with the exception of the early dominant defense and a few superstars on offense aside from Brady, they engaged in a different type of team building. I see plenty of talent on this roster. The defense than most teams. I think overall they still fit that pattern. The defense is stout and well built with depth pieces well into development and young guys playing well enough that I can project more to it. The offensive line after some pretty bad injuries has stabilized pretty well. Running game is good but they are definitely missing a real receiving back. Tight end seems fine and will turn over next year. Receivers need upgrades, especially with Bourne out. The biggest thing that has affected this team and retarded its development has been the quarterback position. You can't fault them for taking mac, I still maintain It was a good pick but picking a quarterback comes with a lot of risk. He just isn't very good and indeed seems to get worse every year. I think if you put a league average quarterback on this team their record would be much different. Mac has been that bad.
Sorry for initial typos. Voice to text is not my friend.
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That’s fair. Though the lack of solid play frees up a lot of time for me to not worry as much.
How many teams have 6+ long term pieces and what is long term in the NFL? 3 years?
Well, when the Pats were good, they seemed to have a core of players that stuck around a while. How many players on this team, especially on offense, do we expect to still be here in two years? Granted, this is likely largely a function of being a crappy team. If they had more good players they’d be better, obviously.
How many players on the 2023 Pats would net them a second or third pick in a trade? I am guessing that Gonzalez could be traded for a first round pick. Other than Barmore and White who under contract in 2024 would another team trade a decent asset for? This team is devoid of talent.
My team is bad but I would say we have
D
Sauce
Quinnen
Quincy
Jermaine Johnson
Huff (if we can resign him)
DJ Reed
…
CJ Mosely
JFM
O
Hall
G Wilson
…
AVT (can be stay healthy?)
Some other question mark guys
I think most teams can get to 6. Most of Jets are D but at least 2 on O.
I would like to see a league average qb come to this team just to settle the argument of whether or not Mac is to blame for everything. IMO the receivers have maybe made two or three plays all year. They maybe have a WR3 on any other team as their top receiver.. and that’s possibly generous. I’d like to see the stats.. but the OLine is still well below league average giving Mac one of the least amount of time to pass per snap.
Easy to say that Mac has played poorly, but I just don’t buy the argument that the team is good enough around him that he’s what’s holding it back.. I know you also said we need to upgrade receiver and RB.. to my eye they’re missing a Kevin Faulk type and any kind of talented slot receiver.
Long term (3+ year) pieces for NE, IMO:
RT Onwenu (since his switch to RT, he's graded out as the #2 RT in the NFL)
OG Strange
WR Douglas
DT Barmore
DT White
CB Gonzalez
The rest is too hard to say because of that 3-year window. Like...Wise is a good player, but will he be in NE in 2026? What about Dugger? He's very good, but will they re-sign him to a big deal? I think Marcus Jones is a terrific football player, but his contract will be up after next year and I have no clue if he'll be around in 2025 or 2026.
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