Mayer, Teel, and Anthony? Yeah I agree.I suspect both will be here in 2024. I hope both are here in 2025, because that’d mean 2024 was a very good season.
EDIT: NEVERMIND, I'm thick as hell.
Mayer, Teel, and Anthony? Yeah I agree.I suspect both will be here in 2024. I hope both are here in 2025, because that’d mean 2024 was a very good season.
I've agreed with this take for a year or two now. An awful lot of people on this board are convinced that Henry is just *dying* to open the purse strings and let Bloom have carte blanche to rebuild the 27 Yankees... and maybe I am wrong, but I don't see it. I think they'll be "in" on Yamamoto and then throw their hands up in the air when he signs with the Yankees or the Dodgers or something. And Henry will shrug his shoulders and go back to pursuing that NBA team in Vegas while the Sox continue to print money.I'm betting Henry & Co. are completely happy with what Bloom is doing. The team was in the hunt until late summer, sort of still in things at Labor Day. The park is pretty full and the beer lines are still long. They have their nice new real estate development deal.
I think with the new playoff structure, ownership is fine with spending what it takes to be basically competitive, make the playoffs occasionally, maybe get hot in October and win another championship. They are not interested in spending the way they used to. Why take the risk financially if a) you're probably not going to win the playoffs anyway and b) the cash flow is still coming from the ballpark? The days of the Sox have a top 3-4 payroll in baseball are over.
I don't like a lot of what Bloom has done - the revolving door of players on one-year contracts, the obsession with guys coming off of injuries, the inability to build a functional pitching staff, the indifference to defense and fundamentals - but I don't ultimately blame him for the franchise's drift in recent years. That's Henry's decision.
This guy gets it. So your guesses are as good as mine.Since Henry doesn't talk to anyone anymore, it's impossible to know what he's thinking.
"Finishing Last" is a Shaughnessy talking point, nothing more. Why should we care about anything besides "did we make the playoffs?" I think the Sox' place in the AL is what matters, and right now they are tied for 8th of 14 teams. Matches what we see with our own eyes too.I mean, it would be 3 out of the last 4 years if they finish in last again. And they could well end up below .500 again this year.
It's accurate.
I would imagine, from a business perspective, that a lousy finish and a lot of games played out of contention is more damaging than a team that finished a game out. Just look at all the empty seats on TV. Is the argument that the Red Sox and Royals seasons are the same since the only goal, according to some, is making the playoffs?"Finishing Last" is a Shaughnessy talking point, nothing more. Why should we care about anything besides "did we make the playoffs?" The "last place" AL East team would be a perennial power in the AL Central.
Unfortunately there are two different conversations. Some people (fans) will insist on talking solely about this year, whereas I personally think it makes more sense to talk in terms of a longer view, since contenders in baseball take a long time to develop. So to answer your question, that's AN argument, and there are plenty of people who will want to make it, but not me. I'm happy to talk about how close we are to winning a title (answer: not sure but a lot closer than KC).I would imagine, from a business perspective, that a lousy finish and a lot of games played out of contention is more damaging than a team that finished a game out. Just look at all the empty seats on TV. Is the argument that the Red Sox and Royals seasons are the same since the only goal, according to some, is making the playoffs?
Totally agree that it’s a bad faith talking point, and anyone holding 2020 against the Sox FO deserves a laugh."Finishing Last" is a Shaughnessy talking point, nothing more. Why should we care about anything besides "did we make the playoffs?" The "last place" AL East team would be a perennial power in the AL Central.
Yeah, this is exactly where I am.I voted “Bloom stays, Cora resigns” but I don’t have any strong feeling about Cora resigning vs. being removed. Basically, it would not surprise me if he was gone next year, while it would surprise me if Bloom was.
But it was a close one -- I can just as easily see them running it back one more time. But Cora has just seemed very checked out / uninterested lately. Only so much we can really presume from that, but again… it just wouldn’t surprise me if all parties were ready for a change.
Bobby Valentine is probably available.Keep Bloom, fire Cora into the sun. Bring on someone that will be a hardass for a year. Maybe they'll un-fuck themselves mentally. I just can't watch another lethargic year of baseball.
Agreed except IMO all four stay.I think Boston will mirror what the Yankees do: manager goes, GM stays.
If the players are playing lethargically, are we sure it's the manager (who I am guessing has tried to wake them up) who should be fired into the sun? I don't know how any serious player can walk onto the field today and see the level the game is being played at, and not try their hardest at all times, with or without the manager in his ear.Keep Bloom, fire Cora into the sun. Bring on someone that will be a hardass for a year. Maybe they'll un-fuck themselves mentally. I just can't watch another lethargic year of baseball.
I don’t know. I’m just tired of the team playing competitive ball and then just shitting all over themselves constantly while Cora appears to be in half asleep with his head on the dugout wall.If the players are playing lethargically, are we sure it's the manager (who I am guessing has tried to wake them up) who should be fired into the sun? I don't know how any serious player can walk onto the field today and see the level the game is being played at, and not try their hardest at all times, with or without the manager in his ear.
I think it's more "Cora and his Staff." At the end of the day the question is how much the field staff maximized the talent level of the club.I don't see the team's struggles being Cora's fault, but managers always take the fall first.
Don’t apologize, I agree with you almost across the board. The fact that they’ve been so sloppy so consistently the last two or three seasons feels incredibly odd to me, and not something that I can easily explain. Something just feels wrong with this team in a way that I don’t recall feeling in other .500 or less seasons the Sox have had over the last decade. In 2014 and 15, the talent just largely wasn’t there. I don’t have stats to back that up, but it just feels like the team makes incredibly bone-headed decisions and plays nearly every single game, even when things are going well.Apologies for the ramble. I just hate this current iteration of Red Sox baseball.
Yeah, I kinda agree with you guys. Is there something off? They played the kind of feisty, quality ball you would hope for them to show at times, but as the season wore on that fell off and the errors kept mounting. It's like they had their head on straight for a while but couldn't sustain it.Don’t apologize, I agree with you almost across the board. The fact that they’ve been so sloppy so consistently the last two or three seasons feels incredibly odd to me, and not something that I can easily explain. Something just feels wrong with this team in a way that I don’t recall feeling in other .500 or less seasons the Sox have had over the last decade. In 2014 and 15, the talent just largely wasn’t there. I don’t have stats to back that up, but it just feels like the team makes incredibly bone-headed decisions and plays nearly every single game, even when things are going well.
I concur with this.I suspect both will be here in 2024. I hope both are here in 2025, because that’d mean 2024 was a very good season.
Ultimately, though, it might just be that this is what happens when you have a team that has mediocre-to-bad pitching and defense. I’m extremely tired of Chaim’s whole “get guys who are at best OK at a bunch of positions” roster construction. It’s painful to watch, as are the random flotsam and jetsam that makes up too much of the pitching staff.Yeah, I kinda agree with you guys. Is there something off? They played the kind of feisty, quality ball you would hope for them to show at times, but as the season wore on that fell off and the errors kept mounting. It's like they had their head on straight for a while but couldn't sustain it.
A legitimate question here, not trying to call anyone out or be snarky.I'm on team Chaim stays, Cora fired. One fairly small but telling outrage about this season was how seemingly hopeless Tilt went to the Dodgers, who teach him how to make an adjustment to his slider that miraculously transforms him into a light's out reliever. Adding in stuff like Devers' fielding regression and the team's crappy fielding generally indicates the coaching staff couldn't do much of anything right. Also tons and tons of terrible at-bats all season save for a few fleeting stretches. Chaim can at least point to some significant positives like the much improved farm system and acquisitions like Masa, Duvall, Turner, Martin etc. to offset Kluber and other less stellar pick-ups to justify keeping him around.
It is generally accepted that the players are coached better at the MLB level and can improve their fielding with MLB coaching. Many minor league teams only have 2-3 coaches. I find it odd that organizations don't overload the minor league coaching staff like an NFL staff and have a coach for every position. It seems like a very cheap way to get a huge advantage.A legitimate question here, not trying to call anyone out or be snarky.
Is it generally expected that players are terrible defensively, get to the majors and suddenly improve with MLB coaching. Or is it more that players are taught / develop defensively in the minors and it's refined in the majors.
It could very well be the former and I don't know, but I'd think baseline competence defensively is either there or not by the time one reaches the major leagues, not that it's going to be taught at the highest level the game has to offer. But I could be wrong, so I'm genuinely asking.
I might be talking out of my ass a little bit, but I think it's the latter (the bolded). Like JBJ was always renowned as a glove man, that's what got him into the majors. How much work did the team do to make him better? I'm not sure if it's quantifiable, I bet it's something. But Duran is not a great outfielder, he takes weird reads on the ball, he doesn't have much of an arm, but his speed is so great that any mistakes he makes are easier to overcome. Plus he has tons of data that he can use to be better positioned. Ultimately, I think he's going to have to move to left but I think for right now he's adequate in center.A legitimate question here, not trying to call anyone out or be snarky.
Is it generally expected that players are terrible defensively, get to the majors and suddenly improve with MLB coaching. Or is it more that players are taught / develop defensively in the minors and it's refined in the majors.
It could very well be the former and I don't know, but I'd think baseline competence defensively is either there or not by the time one reaches the major leagues, not that it's going to be taught at the highest level the game has to offer. But I could be wrong, so I'm genuinely asking.
For the 7,465th time, a team doesn't "let a player go" if he's a free agent. That means he can explore offers from any and all teams that are interested to maximize his value and/or sign with the team that fits his needs best. That's the player's choice, not the team's. I'm not sure why this is still so hard to comprehend.But they let Xander, Eo and Wacha go. Maybe they're not doing too bad considering the loss of those guys. Or, should Bloom have found a way to keep them, or at least the pitchers?
I never got when people look at this as black and white. Sure, Bello, Duran etc weren't drafted by Bloom. But he probably had ample opportunity to trade them a lot over the years and didn't. So while Bloom doesn't get credit for drafting these players, he should get SOME credit for holding on to them until they became major parts of the big league club.Casas, Bello, Duran, Crawford, Houck, Rafeala were here when Bloom got here. He brought in Whitlock, Winckowski, Wong, Abreu, Valdez.
Of the Sox current top 10 prospects; he brought in Mayer, Bleis, Anthony, Teel, Yorke, Zanetelli, and Cespedes; the others (Perales, Gonzalez, and Rafaela) predate his arrival.
So it’s a mix, naturally the prospect list is getting more Bloom heavy as time goes on. No one he acquired as an amateur has made it to the big leagues yet, I don’t believe.
I agree 100%. The 2023 team isn't a WS contender, but in my eyes they're far better than a .500 also-ran. They'll click and play hungry for a week, then lapse back into prolonged stretches of boneheaded running and defense and making foolish outs at the plate. I had them pegged for 86 wins, and that looks out of reach at this point.I don’t know. I’m just tired of the team playing competitive ball and then just shitting all over themselves constantly while Cora appears to be in half asleep with his head on the dugout wall.
They make mental errors constantly like they’re slacking off - where you watch good teams and they are seemingly engaged and playing hard and excited. With the Sox it feels like they all want to be anywhere else.
And I do feel like that comes down to the manager. I think it’s tough to have the same manager for too long. I wasn’t a fan of Cora coming back in the first place, and nothing he’s done since then has inspired any sort of confidence. 2018 he was a magician, always seemingly one step ahead. I’m not sure if there was cheating involved in that - it’s possible, if not likely. His press conference after the Yankee games in England felt pretty damning about it.
Either way, I think our team as assembled is better than the results. They’re not a first place team (yet) but they’re not the band of morons that I see when I turn on late season games. Something has to give - these are Little League issues on the largest stage. It’s beyond NATSTOWN.
Apologies for the ramble. I just hate this current iteration of Red Sox baseball.
I think the bolded has a whole lot to do with defensive improvements at the big league level, particularly for outfielders. I think Duran's problem is more related to him not being an outfielder until he turned pro, so he lacks a lot of instincts that guys who've been outfielders since they were kids (like JBJ) have developed over a lot longer time. Some guys are quick studies on that kind of transition (Mookie comes to mind, but Alex Gordon is another example). Some never quite get there.I might be talking out of my ass a little bit, but I think it's the latter (the bolded). Like JBJ was always renowned as a glove man, that's what got him into the majors. How much work did the team do to make him better? I'm not sure if it's quantifiable, I bet it's something. But Duran is not a great outfielder, he takes weird reads on the ball, he doesn't have much of an arm, but his speed is so great that any mistakes he makes are easier to overcome. Plus he has tons of data that he can use to be better positioned. Ultimately, I think he's going to have to move to left but I think for right now he's adequate in center.
So basically if you're a very good to great defensive player in the minors, you're going to be better thanks to ML coaching and data. But if you're average defensively, you can be better but you have to really work at it (like Wade Boggs did), or you need something else to outweigh your defensive lapses (hitting or speed).
I've never heard of a guy who was an iron glove throughout the minors all of a sudden start winning Gold Gloves. I mean, I think that even Boggs' defense was passable.
I think by "let go," people are really saying "didn't take advantage of the period where we had exclusive negotiating rights."For the 7,465th time, a team doesn't "let a player go" if he's a free agent. That means he can explore offers from any and all teams that are interested to maximize his value and/or sign with the team that fits his needs best. That's the player's choice, not the team's. I'm not sure why this is still so hard to comprehend.
There’s also “development” part of “drafting & development” that often gets overlooked. These guys are no where near finished products in baseball more than any other major sport. If more impact players are reaching the majors under Bloom’s system, does it matter if Dombrowski drafted a few of them 4 years ago? They were in low A when he got canned.I never got when people look at this as black and white. Sure, Bello, Duran etc weren't drafted by Bloom. But he probably had ample opportunity to trade them a lot over the years and didn't. So while Bloom doesn't get credit for drafting these players, he should get SOME credit for holding on to them until they became major parts of the big league club.
Can‘t speak for others, but for myself I absolutely give Bloom credit for holding on to guys from the prior regime, specifically Bello, Casas, Duran and I include Houck here too as I like the player.I never got when people look at this as black and white. Sure, Bello, Duran etc weren't drafted by Bloom. But he probably had ample opportunity to trade them a lot over the years and didn't. So while Bloom doesn't get credit for drafting these players, he should get SOME credit for holding on to them until they became major parts of the big league club.
And lighting. I see several games a year at Hadlock in Portland, and even though the lighting has vastly improved in the past few years, it's still midnight compared to MLB lighting. Playing most games at night, I can't help but think that both defense and hitting are improved with the better lighting.I think the bolded has a whole lot to do with defensive improvements at the big league level, particularly for outfielders. I think Duran's problem is more related to him not being an outfielder until he turned pro, so he lacks a lot of instincts that guys who've been outfielders since they were kids (like JBJ) have developed over a lot longer time. Some guys are quick studies on that kind of transition (Mookie comes to mind, but Alex Gordon is another example). Some never quite get there.
Regarding Boggs and his reputation coming up, I've heard theories that some of the blame for his rep and a lot of the errors he made as a minor leaguer should go to the quality of fields in the minors. Lots of "snakes in the grass" and such. Not that the infield at Fenway was in any kind of great shape in the Joe Mooney days. I imagine experience helped Boggs in that regard.
The bad defense and bad base running is absolutely a coaching issue and one Cora bears responsibility for IMO. Managers can't turn Derek Jeter into Ozzie Smith but they should be able to drill out the kind of stupid baseball we've been subjected to the last 2 seasons.Don’t apologize, I agree with you almost across the board. The fact that they’ve been so sloppy so consistently the last two or three seasons feels incredibly odd to me, and not something that I can easily explain. Something just feels wrong with this team in a way that I don’t recall feeling in other .500 or less seasons the Sox have had over the last decade. In 2014 and 15, the talent just largely wasn’t there. I don’t have stats to back that up, but it just feels like the team makes incredibly bone-headed decisions and plays nearly every single game, even when things are going well.
You’re giving him six seasons? That’s a lot of time.Getting rid of Bloom would be stupid. He's executed basically how he has had to. He was brought in specifically to rebuild the team. If this team sucks after 2025 then there's a conversation to be had there, but right now the farm looks solid and there's a promising future ahead.
I think there's a difference between wanting to develop pitching and relying on said development for all the pitching the team needs. Even when the team was developing starting pitching during this ownership tenure, they were paying notable salary for pitching originating from outside the org as well: Beckett, Lackey, Matsuzaka, etc. My sense is that Bloom has a general mandate with regard to the payroll without specific does or don'ts like "no big pitcher contracts". If Bloom can make it work without a significant risk of hamstringing future payrolls with an albatross, he likely has the freedom to do it.Furthermore, if the goal was to develop pitching, will ownership green light a huge pitcher spending spree that many seem to want? Even if the team doesn’t appear especially ready to compete?
Why is this who’s 1-4 in the pecking order even a thing? Bruins 1 Title in 50 years is somehow better than the J-E-T-S? Let’s go back to proven science: can you get a cheap ticket to the game on StubHub?My option isn't listed. I think Bloom will be fired and Cora will resign.
I've lived here most of my life and can't remember when the interest in the Boston Red Sox was lower. The team is tied for 4th in the local sports pecking order with the Revs. It isn't even an afterthought for diehard family and friend sports fans in the area, on the talk radio airwaves and on local/social media. Bloom will take the fall in management's attempt to regain interest in the team.
Chaim has earned some time. I think the current team is better than it looks, and they’ve been hurt with a lot of injuries and poor play that if they didn’t happen we’d be in the hunt more.You’re giving him six seasons? That’s a lot of time.
One is literally as accurate as the other, and that’s so obvious that it actually is a fact.I would say that if I wanted to represent the season the Red Sox have had, 73-72 (or, ".500 team", "medicore", etc.) paints a much more accurate picture than "last place". This seems so obvious to me that I'm tempted to say it's a fact.
None of which is to say 73-72 is great accomplishment.
So are you saying he should be extended?The only reason I think they might can him is that they haven't extended him yet. And a lame duck GM is a bad idea.