You like big Butts and you cannot lie.Jake Butt will be pretty high on my draft binky list this spring.
You and everyone. Just like my daughter wants a pony. I think the question for the Pats going forward is what 10 games a year of Gronk is worth. You can't realistically expect more than that. Hope? Sure. But not expect, and be prepared that it could be fewer and could be in December. The question is what do the Pats gain by saying no mas.Yeah.
I want him healthy and back on the field.
I don't believe the 2018/19 seasons were ever expected to be "real" in Gronk's contract. Assuming he doesn't retire, he would either be restructured ahead of that, or cut/traded. If anything, this latest injury simply kicks the ball back to March of 2018. At this point, there is no urgency on the Pats part to do anything other than let him play out 2017.You and everyone. Just like my daughter wants a pony. I think the question for the Pats going forward is what 10 games a year of Gronk is worth. You can't realistically expect more than that. Hope? Sure. But not expect, and be prepared that it could be fewer and could be in December. The question is what do the Pats gain by saying no mas.
Fortunately, the cap situation next year makes it an easy decision for the Pats. He's about as expensive to cut as to keep. After that, not so easy. $23 million is a lot of cap money.
That's exactly why I think he might get traded - Bill can get good value for him now with him having a year of reasonable money left AND he's got two more years left after that. What are the odds he just gets hurt again next year and retires? Then you get nothing. You might be able to fleece a GM who thinks part-time Gronk can save his job.I don't believe the 2018/19 seasons were ever expected to be "real" in Gronk's contract.
He's not getting traded; the 4th round draft pick they would get is not "good value".That's exactly why I think he might get traded - Bill can get good value for him now with him having a year of reasonable money left AND he's got two more years left after that. What are the odds he just gets hurt again next year and retires? Then you get nothing. You might be able to fleece a GM who thinks part-time Gronk can save his job.
Obviously he won't get traded if a 4th round is all they can get. I'm assuming the Patriots can do a lot better than that. The other part of it is that I don't think he agrees to restructure; so he's liable to get cut anyway after next season.He's not getting traded; the 4th round draft pick they would get is not "good value".
Can you think of any professional that has done a piss poor job of managing his own public perception on his own and/or been taken advantage of by those who were paid to handle his business for him but didn't really care about him?Gronk is also an adult and has an agent that he pays a lot of money to. Why does his family need to be involved in any statement he makes?
Weird how that works, huh?I was thinking about posting on this, but now that you have I will chip in. Apparently Gonzalez was never a big "heavy lifting" guy but more in that Marinovich school of lean, highly flexible (but powerful) muscles. He also was an amazingly clean eater from all accounts. I have no doubt that he did some PEDs, but he was also focused on his physical health from his USC days on, according to all accounts.
Well, he may share some of that cost too, eh?He does. And he's had a LOT of injuries and surgeries. He's just injury prone, for whatever reason. And it probably isn't because he's always targeted because he is a humongous dude. Targeting Gronk is costly for the targert-er.
This is spot on. He's prone to back injuries, the arm and knee issues were fluky. Unfortunately the back is probably going to get worse over time, not better.
Guys, there are doctors and scienticians in this forum--in this very thread. Some of them have even been to medical school, though maybe not any that such an erudite crowd such as this has actually heard of.If a player's non-health is related to something he could do about it, it could be a skill. (maybe the ubiquitous "taking care of your body.") Otherwise, this is just an empty platitude. Avoiding empty platitudes is also a skill.
Gronkowski had a bad back coming out of college ("bad back" is pretty broad. whether its related to his current woes is just speculation). I would say that playing at a Hall of Fame level for several seasons despite that is what takes skill.
Two questions:Not trying to be a dick here. I have no problem with "attribute."
I do with "skill," unless its some sort of conditioning or preparation-related injury.
What do you suppose, if anything, Deion Branch might have to say on this matter?Yeah, I'm surprised more guys don't follow the Damien Woody route: get some rings and then get out of town for a big payday.
It's not fun, but it's beautiful.This is not fun to watch.
No, it's not beautiful. It is a man in his 20s in a walker struggling to take steps because he was hurt entertaining us. It isn't the first time he has had to do this, which seems to make the risk that he will be in a walker Or in significant pain after his career ends, much higher. Again, for our entertainment.It's not fun, but it's beautiful.
Many, if not most, NFL players, especially of his caliber, have too much pride to make that video.
The Gronk Persona is fun, but it means different things to different people.
Here? Gronk is teaching. And I'm almost in tears watching him work.
Have you ever visited an athlete in a hospital?No, it's not beautiful. It is a man in his 20s in a walker struggling to take steps because he was hurt entertaining us. It isn't the first time he has had to do this, which seems to make the risk that he will be in a walker Or in significant pain after his career ends, much higher. Again, for our entertainment.
Don't glamorize this by saying Gronk is teaching. He wasn't hit by a car, he isn't coming back from chemo, this isn't inspiring people who are in similar positions. This is a guy in his 20s who has had multiple back surgeries, who played in a game a few weeks after puncturing a lung, recovering from an injury that he sustained while entertaining.
I've been asking for that for a couple of weeks. Plus, it's clear that opponents are ignoring Blount when he goes out on passing routes. Perhaps that could be exploited.I think it's going to be an RB party on offense now. BB was talking about his latest wrinkle being 2 RB sets.
I would agree it is a rare thing and I certainly think I see he point you were trying to make there.I think you might have misunderstood what I think he was teaching us.
If so, that's on me. And this is important, so I want to be as clear as possible.
Edit: I need to go to sleep, so I just want to make sure this is out there for anyone reading next:
What I think i beautiful is Gronk swallowing his pride and letting himself be taped in that condition and having it be broadcast. Guys like that rarely makes themselves so vulnerable, even to make an important point.
Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation, but even absent the interpretation, maybe we can agree that this is a rare thing.
Agreed (with you and Rev).I would agree it is a rare thing and I certainly think I see he point you were trying to make there.
It's just damned hard for me to see beauty in a guy who has done so much for a lot of people, and who brings a lot of joy to so many off the field and on in a walker at that age.
I remember so many pundits talking about how tough Gronkowski was for coming back so quickly after the punctured lung, and other prior injuries......I just hope that the guy doesn't view "coming back from injuries" as being inexorably linked to the popular view of him being tough. That is a path that has put way too many NFL players in really bad places after their careers. I want the guy to be making goofy pyramids with his brothers in Vegas with his brothers ten years from now.
Are people really doing this?Agreed (with you and Rev).
The mouthbreathing contingent of Patriots fans (well, one of them, right? hey-o!) that calls into sports talk shows to speculate about, or outright criticize, Gronk's 'toughness' can fuck right off.
I was more referring to the overhyped praise for guys being tough when they come back from significant injury in silly timeframes - the 70s era Steelers and Raiders were famous for having tough players.....and most of those tough guys are either dead or in searing pain each day. But there was a caller on WFAN who criticized the Patriots for coddling Gronkowski as opposed to giving him a few weeks to see how he healed up. The host was appropriately dismissive.Are people really doing this?
No, that is not correct, and that mindset has led to some terrible consequences for 100s of thousands of people who played football at all levels over the years, and horrifying consequences fo thousands of players who played at the highest levels.You get hurt, and your worth as a player is as much a function of your ability to play through pain as anything else..
Three back surgeries and his overall injury history does give reasonable credibility to the statement, no?Is there any real basis other than "It's his third back surgery, Mike! His THIRD!!!" for all this "he'll never be the same" talk?
I completely agree with you. I was pointing out that the week that Gronk got put on IR the conversation on the Pats flagship radio station was abut how tough their other TE was because he plays through injuries.No, that is not correct, and that mindset has led to some terrible consequences for 100s of thousands of people who played football at all levels over the years, and horrifying consequences fo thousands of players who played at the highest levels.
I saw "Concussion" on cable last night, and this post really resonates.No, that is not correct, and that mindset has led to some terrible consequences for 100s of thousands of people who played football at all levels over the years, and horrifying consequences for thousands of players who played at the highest levels.
Yeah, I think we're in firm agreement here. I mean, what we see is gruesome, horrific, tragic.I would agree it is a rare thing and I certainly think I see he point you were trying to make there.
I hear you. I just sometimes forget you weren't raised Catholic.It's just damned hard for me to see beauty in a guy who has done so much for a lot of people, and who brings a lot of joy to so many off the field and on in a walker at that age.
I hate wrestling with the how I feel about the First Amendment. Damn you for making me thing about it.I remember so many pundits talking about how tough Gronkowski was for coming back so quickly after the punctured lung, and other prior injuries......I just hope that the guy doesn't view "coming back from injuries" as being inexorably linked to the popular view of him being tough. That is a path that has put way too many NFL players in really bad places after their careers. I want the guy to be making goofy pyramids with his brothers in Vegas with his brothers ten years from now.
I was at least 17% happier before I read this. Not your fault, of course, but holy hell does this new information make my blood run cold.Agreed (with you and Rev).
The mouthbreathing contingent of Patriots fans (well, one of them, right? hey-o!) that calls into sports talk shows to speculate about, or outright criticize, Gronk's 'toughness' can fuck right off.
Do you remember the part of this thread where I mentioned all the fucking doctors in this thread or how clearly do you need this spelled out for you?Is there any real basis other than "It's his third back surgery, Mike! His THIRD!!!" for all this "he'll never be the same" talk?
I'm a little confused. Your post (which I saw at the time and looked up just now) said that posters who aren't doctors shouldn't be speculating wildly on his health in this thread. I didn't speculate – I simply asked who the medical people were who were saying his career might be over. The thread is 45 pages on mobile and the only post I see by a doctor (that I know of anyway) is DRS saying he was def. done for the year so we could stop trying to imagine him pushing his walker onto the field in Super Bowl pre-game.Do you remember the part of this thread where I mentioned all the fucking doctors in this thread or how clearly do you need this spelled out for you?
And yes, I am now asking you and, dammit, I want a response: How clearly do you need this spelled out for you?
The point, if I can step in for Rev, I think, is that this forum gives you a good opportunity to ask whether the 3 back surgeries will limit Gronk going forward, or the effect of repeated surgeries in general or on the back in particular. I think there are at least 3 docs you could "page" to this thread.I'm a little confused. Your post (which I saw at the time and looked up just now) said that posters who aren't doctors shouldn't be speculating wildly on his health in this thread. I didn't speculate – I simply asked who the medical people were who were saying his career might be over. The thread is 45 pages on mobile and the only post I see by a doctor (that I know of anyway) is DRS saying he was def. done for the year so we could stop trying to imagine him pushing his walker onto the field in Super Bowl pre-game.
Are there actual doctors—on this thread or in the media—speculating that Gronk could be done?
Do you honestly believe the form in which you expressed your question did not appear in any way "loaded" or otherwise containing rhetorical content beyond the simply interrogative of what his actual injury is and what the empirical ramifications for his career might be?Sure, but I thought that was what I was doing.
It would seem that, empirically speaking, you can. Quite ably, in fact.The point, if I can step in for Rev, I think, is that this forum gives you a good opportunity to ask whether the 3 back surgeries will limit Gronk going forward, or the effect of repeated surgeries in general or on the back in particular. I think there are at least 3 docs you could "page" to this thread.
No, what you said was thisSure, but I thought that was what I was doing.
And that is the post of a dimwitIs there any real basis other than "It's his third back surgery, Mike! His THIRD!!!" for all this "he'll never be the same" talk?
dcmissile can speak for himself, but when I see people say things like "staying healthy is a skill", I imagine in my head something similar to a soldier having common sense and his wits about him in a battle, protecting himself from being seen and not trying to be a hero. In the NFL, that might be an ability to see a hit coming out of the corner of your eye and a decision to go down some of the time, rather than take it and fight for that extra yard 100% of the time. It might be telling coaches* when you're "semi-injured" so that your playtime goes down for a game or two in order to minimize your longer-term risks (to your season, in the coaches' eyes, but also to your health), rather than waiting until you're incapacitated before asking out from anything. It might be some technique in blocking, where the force hits your legs more and your forearms less. I dunno, but I can definitely see some difference in behavior that derives from your approach, your technique or your instinct being termed a "skill". Whether that behavior would be desirable in Gronk, I have no idea.Not trying to be a dick here. I have no problem with "attribute."
I do with "skill," unless its some sort of conditioning or preparation-related injury.
Another hypothetical, and one whose answer would help answer a thought I've had about Gronk for some time: if you lined up 10 men of different heights, weights, and body types and hit them with the same force at the same angle in the same spot, do they all suffer the same injury/severity?It might be some of the things Rev mentioned - bone density, tendon thickness, flexibility, reflexes, leverages, etc.
Here's a hypothetical - 10 men the same size and age are lined up and hit with the same force at the same angle in the same spot. Do they all walk away the same?
First of all, I think I noted the avoiding contact skill upthread somewhere. (I think it was in relation to Welker and Edelman).Two questions:
1) Do you think avoiding, slipping, or reducing hits would assist with injury prevention?
2) Do you think the ability to avoid, slip, or otherwise reduce the newtons of force transmitted by contact in the field of sport is a skill?