Patriots re-hired Dante Scarnecchia as OL coach

Shelterdog

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I agree 100%. The only thing I find concerning is that they seem to struggle bringing in veteran coaches from outside the organization. Dom Capers is another example. Belichick seems to like to build from within and when he deviates from that, the guys tend not to last very long.

The first name that jumped out at me for a replacement is Brian Ferentz, the OL coach at Iowa. He was an assistant with the Pats from 2008-11 and has been working with his dad Kirk, an OL coach under Belichick in Cleveland and a legendary groomer of offensive linemen. Not sure he wants to jump to the NFL, but if he's thinking about it, seems like an obvious fit.
They've had at least some success with guys from outside the organization--Brendan Daly and Chad O'Shea had been on other teams for years and both seem to have been fine. Bill O'Brien also came from outside the organization and was great.

Anyhow, thinking about it some more, I think BB thinks that the line underperformed. Kline and Cannon were awful but those two guys were both good enough in BB's eyes to have gotten nice little extensions--certainly enough money that they shouldn't be giving up 10 hits and 3 sacks between them.
 

Stitch01

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They've done this pretty rarely and, given the tweet that DD thought this was in the works for weeks, I'd speculate he was gone almost regardless of yesterday's result
 

Eddie Jurak

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It is difficult to coach talent into players who have very little of it. Hopefully there will be a few offensive linemen following him out the door.
Not sure that's a fair assessment of the players though. Stork, Kline were good for us a year ago. Shaq Mason was good for us a few months ago. Hard to believe this group was so terrible that it wasn't even possible to make some adjustments.
 

rsmith7

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To play line successfully requires confidence; confidence in knowing who you are going to block. Any hesitancy and all the technique work a coach can teach is useless.
You can see the confusion in the who-to-get particularly in the Miami game (and yesterday despite only 3 or 4 coming). If the linemen don't know the blocking rules, the line coach is gone.
 

lexrageorge

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I'm also going to give Belichick the benefit of the doubt and claim that this was likely building all season. Sure, Googs wasn't dealt a full deck this season. But Belichick the GM did invest two draft picks in interior linemen, and brought in a rookie free agent, and probably assumed some growth in Cannon and Fleming. When it's time to move on, might as well get it done quick.
 
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I'd like to circle back to the notion expressed above that the Patriots might believe a different coach could get a better result from the same group of players. We know that Vollmer and Solder, when healthy, are "good enough." So, are we certain that the interior lineman and (as important, as we just saw) the reserves across the line really have the ability to improve?
Are we certain it's an either/or situation?
 

Harry Hooper

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As I posted in the Miami game thread before yesterday's disaster, it would be nice to see simple competence (not necessarily excellence) from this OL this season, but its trajectory over the season was very disappointing.I think this change had to be made.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I'd like to circle back to the notion expressed above that the Patriots might believe a different coach could get a better result from the same group of players. We know that Vollmer and Solder, when healthy, are "good enough." So, are we certain that the interior lineman and (as important, as we just saw) the reserves across the line really have the ability to improve?
I guess you either believe coaching matters or you don't. I have no idea, but presume it must. I would think that part of coaching a unit is getting them to complement each other, and I feel like BB is competent enogh to know if that's happening. If guys are playing effectively together. Plus, when five guys who have been playing their positions for years can't even get three pass rushers to slow down a half step, it's hard to believe there aren't some technique deficiencies.
 

jablo1312

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Because rushing DVOA is stupid?
Is there something I'm missing? I generally prefer DVOA to other stats as a way to get a quick and dirty overview of a teams unit. Given that is has become painfully obvious to us that the Pats cannot run the ball against good defenses, I guess there are a few hypotheses

-Brady's extreme success in short yardage situation boosts their overall rushing record by a solid amount, since DVOA accounts for down and distance and the Pats really excel converting 3rd/4th and 1. A big part of that has to be attributed to Brady.
-The team going to extreme lengths to avoid running the ball against good rushing defenses altogether (Miami, NYJ, Buffalo, KC, Den); it's lost on DVOA that the Pat's can't r.un the ball in those situations, since they never even attempted to, but we know that they probably couldn't do it successfully
-Blount (4.3 yards/carry on 165 carries) and Lewis (4.8 yards/carry on 48 carries) actually weren't that bad on a per carry basis. Lewis basically got 5 good carries a game, and broke more tackles per touch than any runner in the league (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/09/24/patriots-dion-lewis-owns-top-elusive-rating/). Tough to chalk all that up to line play Blount had a couple good games against the Redskins, one of the leagues worst run defenses, and the Colts, as he always does. I don't think running fairly well on two mediocre defenses is much to write home about.

Agreed that this is definitely a situation where the raw numbers to capture how obvious it was that the Pats couldn't run the ball at all against the better defenses in the league. I have no issue with this move.
 

dcmissle

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I'm also going to give Belichick the benefit of the doubt and claim that this was likely building all season. Sure, Googs wasn't dealt a full deck this season. But Belichick the GM did invest two draft picks in interior linemen, and brought in a rookie free agent, and probably assumed some growth in Cannon and Fleming. When it's time to move on, might as well get it done quick.
Considering this and the nice little extensions Shelter noted, 99 times out of 100 this is coach as fall guy. Cause he allowed the GM/HC to look bad.

Not here. That is a stupid way of doing business. If the draft investments and extensions were bad, own it and move on with the coach. Pats have faults but do not make stupid decisions to protect a GM/HC who does not need protection.

As EE noted, big picture longer term considerations probably drove this, and we may never find out exactly what because it does nobody any good to disclose the bloody details.
 

Bellhorn

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Is there something I'm missing? I generally prefer DVOA to other stats as a way to get a quick and dirty overview of a teams unit. Given that is has become painfully obvious to us that the Pats cannot run the ball against good defenses, I guess there are a few hypotheses

-Brady's extreme success in short yardage situation boosts their overall rushing record by a solid amount, since DVOA accounts for down and distance and the Pats really excel converting 3rd/4th and 1. A big part of that has to be attributed to Brady.
Not really - they ranked 19th in the "Power Success" metric.

-The team going to extreme lengths to avoid running the ball against good rushing defenses altogether (Miami, NYJ, Buffalo, KC, Den); it's lost on DVOA that the Pat's can't r.un the ball in those situations, since they never even attempted to, but we know that they probably couldn't do it successfully
Lost on DVOA, yes, but that's why a complete analysis generally needs to consider DYAR as well.
-Blount (4.3 yards/carry on 165 carries) and Lewis (4.8 yards/carry on 48 carries) actually weren't that bad on a per carry basis. Lewis basically got 5 good carries a game, and broke more tackles per touch than any runner in the league (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/09/24/patriots-dion-lewis-owns-top-elusive-rating/).
Indeed, if you look at the individual RB statistics, you'll see that Lewis is primarily responsible for any DVOA success the unit may have had this year.
Tough to chalk all that up to line play
True, although FO does attempt to separate OL/RB performance through the Adjusted Line Yards stat, in which the Patriots OL grades pretty well. I don't trust this as much as overall DVOA/DYAR stats, so take it FWIW.

Blount had a couple good games against the Redskins, one of the leagues worst run defenses, and the Colts, as he always does. I don't think running fairly well on two mediocre defenses is much to write home about.
Yes, and this is reflected in the fact that his VOA is significantly higher than his DVOA.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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I have no idea about the intricacies of o-line coaching, but he always seemed like more of a "rah-rah" guy than a cerebral-type. Then again, Scar had a lot of "rah-rah" in him, too.

Sunday's o-line performance was historically bad. You had to expect some changes were coming.
 

JimD

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If he was that bad, why didn't they replace him before the playoffs started?
 

lexrageorge

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If he was that bad, why didn't they replace him before the playoffs started?
Because the disruption it would cause among the offensive lineman would more than negate any advantage of firing him.

Belichick obviously thought highly of Deguglielmo when he hired him. After 2 years, BB decided he wasn't the best choice going forward. Probably had to do with a number of factors. It doesn't mean he was "that bad"; I'm sure BB understood that part of the OL's performance this year was due to injuries and ineffectiveness.

Hiring/firing decisions should not be based on logic quizzes. BB cannot go back and say "Hey, I thought he was good enough of a coach for me to retain him this season. Therefore, I should not fire him now that the season is over". Results do matter, and circumstances do change.
 

dcmissle

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It's also not beyond the possibility that he was on the edge, and that decent performances Sunday and two weeks from Sunday could have nudged this in the opposite direction, albeit with a talkin' to heading into next season. Some decisions are close, and that does not make yesterday's decision knee jerk.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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/diversion...

Speaking as somebody who was recently fired from their corporate job, "parting ways" is the language HR offers you as if they're doing you a favor when you get fired. [While my dismissal wasn't important enough to merit a news release, there were a number of internal emails that were spread throughout the company, and would quickly be forwarded throughout the industry.] My response was to tell them to shove their "parting ways" and use the term "dismissed" or "released prior to the end of his contract" -- be upfront about it and have them take responsibility for their move.

Of course they went ahead and used "parting ways".

Needless to say, nobody here read "parting ways" as anything other than "thrown out on his ass."

/return to thread
 

RIFan

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DeGuglielmo was getting killed through the KC game last year about the line play. There was a lot of talk back then about his communication skills and there were some personality issues. Here is an article where Christian Fauria talks about it.

They stabilized on a unit after that and the line play improved. Belichick probably worked with him to resolve some of the issues, but obviously not enough progress was made in his mind. The decision was probably made a while ago and not a knee jerk reaction to this weeks debacle.
 

sodenj5

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Just from an outsiders perspective, what were they to do differently against Von Miller from a coaching perspective?

"Hey Canon, try not to get beat on every single snap."

The Broncos rushed three and were putting Brady on his ass all game. I could see if they were bringing exotic blitzes and doing crazy personnel groupings. Denver's D had their way with the Pats O-Line all game. You can blame it on the crowd noise if you want, but Denver's pass rushers were about 1000x better than any Patriot offensive lineman on Sunday. Smells a lot more like a personnel issue than a coaching issue.
 

smastroyin

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I don't think it was a knee jerk reaction - if you aren't retaining coaches, you want to let them go as soon as possible so they can find other jobs and also so you can start your own search. I don't think the timing is any more sinister than that.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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A little surprised. I know they got lit up by Denver but they looked pretty good for what they had for most of the year. Especially with so many line combos.
We'll have to disagree - they've been abysmal all year, and the only thing that has kept the offense treading water has been Brady's historically fast release time.

Is it his fault? Who knows.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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Is there something I'm missing? I generally prefer DVOA to other stats as a way to get a quick and dirty overview of a teams unit. Given that is has become painfully obvious to us that the Pats cannot run the ball against good defenses, I guess there are a few hypotheses
.
The Patriots rushing DVOA is high for the same reason that Adrian Petersons is always just above average (2.2% this year) - DVOA has no way of accounting for defensive sets, expectation, or anything like that. The Patriots do the majority of their rushing in situations where the other team has shifted to nickel, and are expecting pass. It's largely a scheme thing.


(Peterson, on the other hand, has spent his entire career rushing against 8 in the box, because nobody respects the Vikings passing game)

Overall offensive/defensive DVOA are good stats, but once you start drilling into individual unit performances, they're misleading junk. They do a really poor job of separating different factors.
 

jablo1312

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Thanks for the responses Bellhorn. I don't usually look to much at some of their other "premium" stats, but I'll probably be familiarizing myself with them more.

Just from an outsiders perspective, what were they to do differently against Von Miller from a coaching perspective?

"Hey Canon, try not to get beat on every single snap."

The Broncos rushed three and were putting Brady on his ass all game. I could see if they were bringing exotic blitzes and doing crazy personnel groupings. Denver's D had their way with the Pats O-Line all game. You can blame it on the crowd noise if you want, but Denver's pass rushers were about 1000x better than any Patriot offensive lineman on Sunday. Smells a lot more like a personnel issue than a coaching issue.
I don't agree that they were outmatched from a personnel perspective on Sunday, but this decision isn't just about 1 game. One of the central roles for a coach in the league is to help develop players, both individually and as a unit. That clearly hasn't happened. This is the first coach the team has fired in close to a decade it seems, seems very unlikely that is put on one game.
 

amarshal2

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Just from an outsiders perspective, what were they to do differently against Von Miller from a coaching perspective?

"Hey Canon, try not to get beat on every single snap."

The Broncos rushed three and were putting Brady on his ass all game. I could see if they were bringing exotic blitzes and doing crazy personnel groupings. Denver's D had their way with the Pats O-Line all game. You can blame it on the crowd noise if you want, but Denver's pass rushers were about 1000x better than any Patriot offensive lineman on Sunday. Smells a lot more like a personnel issue than a coaching issue.
I dunno. Lots of the replay snippets I've seen there's literally no attempt to block somebody or almost no attempt to block somebody suggesting that they had the assignments wrong. Several of them feature Cannon. Nobody in the NFL is THAT bad that they can't get a hand on somebody and don't bother to turn their bodies after they've been beaten. Also, I haven't been watching o-line play closely for that long but they sure seemed like they were the worst team in the NFL at handling stunts (apart from the Denver game). Just repeatedly didn't make the hand-offs like it was the first time they'd seen it.

The Patriots have made it work for over a decade with guys most coaching staffs would think unfit of being in the NFL. Maybe BB is chasing something that can't be replicated but, like 99% of the posters in this thread, I have a very hard time buying the CYA story line which is just about the only logical conclusion from your post.
 

lexrageorge

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There's no reason why the line's struggles could not be due to a combination of coaching and personnel. First step in that situation is to replace the coach, and then work with the new coach on the personnel issue. I would expect that something will happen on the personnel front this offseason. And that expectation is based on both the line's play all season, and the fact that Vollmer will be 32 to start next season.
 

FL4WL3SS

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I've felt that this move was coming for a while now, not because the unit struggled against the pass rush multiple times this year, but because I felt the reason the Patriots went to such pass heavy gameplans this year was because the offensive line couldn't run block to save their lives. I think the talent is there on the offensive line, but for whatever reason were terrible at blocking. I don't know much about blocking schemes, but it seemed that under DeGuglielmo they didn't use as many complex and advanced schemes (especially in the run game).

There were so many missed assignments in that game on Sunday that it had to be more about the coaching than the players.
 

rodderick

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Colts games aside, the Pats couldn't run block for shit in two years under DeGuglielmo and basically had to cater their entire offense around spreading teams out and getting rid of the ball quickly to neutralize the pass rush. They've treated the OL as a weak link that had to be covered up for a while now, it's not surprising that changes are being made on that front.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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My biggest issue is there should have been better adjustments during the game if the DeG was doing an acceptable job. We can't run block, I get that. But we've been pass blocking all year and for us not to be able to adjust to what was essentially 3-5 defensive players coming was bad. When the offense comes on the field, the position groups go to their coaches. If DeG was telling BB that we're set for the next series and it turns out that was just the same as all the others, he had to go.

Having said that, I doubt it was just a one game situation. If coaching was the issue on Sunday, coaching has been the issue for some time, and the Denver rush was just the perfect storm.
 

sodenj5

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Since 2006, the Patriots have selected exactly 2 lineman in the first three rounds. Vollmer in 2009 and Solder in 2011. That's downright negligent when your team's greatest asset is protected by these guys.

Maybe they weren't coached well enough, or maybe a bunch of mid-round draft picks played like a bunch of mid-round draft picks against some elite pass rushers.
 

troparra

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You're right that there aren't a bunch of hall of famers on the line, but that's probably more of a reason not to have a shitty coach.
 

Ed Hillel

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The offensive line play since 2006, overall, has been excellent (not to mention the team play in general). The only bad stretches I can remember were the first four games last year and the last half year or so this year.

Even this year, the OL was excellent the first 6-8 weeks, so the personnel was clearly capable at some point, at least until Solder went down. How did Miami's OL look after Albert went down? That's not to excuse Cannon's horrific play, but calling the drafting "negligent" over a stretch of mostly excellent play is ridiculous.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Since 2006, the Patriots have selected exactly 2 lineman in the first three rounds. Vollmer in 2009 and Solder in 2011. That's downright negligent when your team's greatest asset is protected by these guys.

Maybe they weren't coached well enough, or maybe a bunch of mid-round draft picks played like a bunch of mid-round draft picks against some elite pass rushers.
On come on. You stopped your list at 2006 because in 2005 they got a ten year starter in the first round with Mankins.

The OL was good enough to help win a Super Bowl last year, to go to 5 straight AFCCG games to boot. There's nothing remotely "negligent" about it. You don't need a bunch of first rounders for a good line; the line last year wasn't oozing with them.
 

lexrageorge

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Since 2006, the Patriots have selected exactly 2 lineman in the first three rounds. Vollmer in 2009 and Solder in 2011. That's downright negligent when your team's greatest asset is protected by these guys.

Maybe they weren't coached well enough, or maybe a bunch of mid-round draft picks played like a bunch of mid-round draft picks against some elite pass rushers.
Looking at that same cherry-picked period, Denver has drafted 7. But only 3 actually played a down for Denver this season (plus one on IR for the entire season).

Carolina has drafted 5, but only 3 of whom are still on the team. Arizona has drafted 4, but only one actually played this season. Their first round pick in 2015 did not play a single down this season.

So once you actually make the effort to look these things up, the fact that the Pats had 2 high picks starting this season on the OL doesn't seem so out of the ordinary. Unless you really think they should have passed on Gronk to pick up a guard.
 

Laser Show

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We'll have to disagree - they've been abysmal all year, and the only thing that has kept the offense treading water has been Brady's historically fast release time.

Is it his fault? Who knows.
Yea, I've flipped after reading this thread. For some reason I hadn't made the connection about his release time to poor offensive line play.
 

Shelterdog

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On come on. You stopped your list at 2006 because in 2005 they got a ten year starter in the first round with Mankins.

The OL was good enough to help win a Super Bowl last year, to go to 5 straight AFCCG games to boot. There's nothing remotely "negligent" about it. You don't need a bunch of first rounders for a good line; the line last year wasn't oozing with them.
Back off. He's a dolphins fan so he's an expert in shitty line play.

Although it's kind of weird that he harps on the third round draft picks and not fourth rounders--players are virtually indistinguishable between those two rounds. But I guess the fact the Pat used four fourth round picks in the past two years would undermine his analysis though.
 

Devizier

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Since 2006, the Patriots have selected exactly 2 lineman in the first three rounds. Vollmer in 2009 and Solder in 2011. That's downright negligent when your team's greatest asset is protected by these guys.

Maybe they weren't coached well enough, or maybe a bunch of mid-round draft picks played like a bunch of mid-round draft picks against some elite pass rushers.
Given how successful the Patriots have historically been without too many high draft picks on the line, I imagine that there was a method to the madness.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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So, over in the 2011 NFL draft thread people are saying that draft picks from the third round on can't really be considered busts, because the flameout rate for those picks is so high...and yet here we're saying it's ok to spend those picks on an offensive line protecting your biggest asset?

How do we reconcile those two viewpoints?

Personally, I would like some more top-end pedigree on the line.
 

smastroyin

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In 2009 wasn't everyone complaining about the lack of high draft picks on defense?

You only have so many picks.
 

lexrageorge

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So, over in the 2011 NFL draft thread people are saying that draft picks from the third round on can't really be considered busts, because the flameout rate for those picks is so high...and yet here we're saying it's ok to spend those picks on an offensive line protecting your biggest asset?

How do we reconcile those two viewpoints?

Personally, I would like some more top-end pedigree on the line.
I don't have detailed stats, but I would presume the "flameout" rate probably varies somewhat based on position. Basically, it's easier to find a starting guard or center in the later rounds than it is to find a starting left tackle.

I think it is fair to say that Belichick the GM has not invested a lot of high draft picks (arbitrarily defined as rounds 1-3) on offensive lineman. It's fair to question whether more draft capital could have been spent over the years on OL. But it's absolutely ridiculous to insinuate incompetence or malpractice on the part of the Patriots for their approach, as it ignores some basic facts, including:

In 2011, the Pats used their first pick to shore up what is widely considered the most important part of the OL, left tackle. Since then, they've had five 4th round draft choices and three 5th rounders. Of those eight 4-5 picks, they drafted 4 offensive lineman and one long snapper. Of those 4, two are firmly entrenched in the backup camp (Cannon and Fleming), while one is clearly a starter (Stork), and it appears he will be a solid starter for quite some time. The other 2 (Jackson and Mason) are rookies, but showed some steady flashes during the regular season. Two of last year's starters, Connolly and Wendell, also took time to develop, so it's way too early to write off either of the rookies.

The amount of draft capital spent by the Pats on the OL is not out of the norm when compared to other teams, even this season's final 4.

There are only so many draft picks. Looking more closely at the 1-3 round picks since Solder, we have:

Pro-Bowl or near Pro-Bowl players: Chandler Jones, Hightower, Jamie Collins.
Solid starter: Logan Ryan
Solid starter that has since left: Vereen, Ridley
Rotational player: Duron Harmon, Tavon Wilson
Busts or relative disappointments: Ras-I Dowling, Jake Bequette, Aaron Dobson
Promising young players: Malcolm Brown, Dominique Easley, Jordan Richards
TBD or incomplete: Ryan Mallett, Jimmy Garoppolo, Geneo Grissom

It's not like there's a lot of wasted draft capital there. And if you're going to play the "What if they took an OL instead of Dobson" game, you also need to play the "What if they took a guard instead of Jamie Collins" game as well.

Finally, we should not discount the impact of injuries. Sure, it's football, and all team's have them. But last year, the OL was relatively healthy in the playoffs. Stork missed the AFCCG, but was back for the Super Bowl. This year, Wendell and Solder were on the shelf. We know that Vollmer had a series of injuries this season, and was playing out of position. Cannon missed a few games with a "toe" injury, but that one could have been a lot more serious than the word toe would have you believe. Jackson was also limited in practice throughout the playoffs. There's only so much contigency planning a coach or GM can do when it comes to injuries. It's not an excuse; Denver won because they were the better team on Sunday. But when it's time to evaluate the roster, it's stupid to ignore the impact injuries did have.
 

patinorange

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It's conceivable he was just not pleased with the preparation and execution Sunday and he is sending a message to the other position coaches and players. We may be over thinking this. Of course we will never know, but doing it one day after the game means something.
 

Super Nomario

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Since 2006, the Patriots have selected exactly 2 lineman in the first three rounds. Vollmer in 2009 and Solder in 2011. That's downright negligent when your team's greatest asset is protected by these guys.
There's a cause-and-effect with high draft picks - if the players you draft are good, you don't have to keep throwing draft picks at the position. When they drafted Adrian Klemm in 2002, they had to pick up a tackle just a year later, but because Light was really good they didn't have to go to the well again. Vollmer and Solder were both hits. They're about due to draft another tackle in 2016, even though they don't need a starter.

You could argue they haven't invested much in the interior OL. They sunk a lot into Mankins but not much since. That's not really unusual for the interior though.

It's conceivable he was just not pleased with the preparation and execution Sunday and he is sending a message to the other position coaches and players. We may be over thinking this. Of course we will never know, but doing it one day after the game means something.
You also have to consider that 28 teams have already been finished with their season and have started making some of their coaching moves. If Belichick has really been thinking about making this move for a while, there's no reason to waste any more time.