Like most of you, I grew up playing baseball every day during the summer. Now, not so much:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-baseball-is-losing-children-1432136172
http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-baseball-is-losing-children-1432136172
The company’s website includes national rankings for teams in age groups that begin at “4 and under.”
You know what the worst thing is about baseball for kids? Parents. No, baseball is not a complicated game from the kids' perspective. A hundred years ago when I was a kid, we just went out in a field and played for hours, making up rules as we went, and didn't even have teams if we only had five guys or so. We did it without parents standing there pretending to be interested, and we used whatever equipment we had. And based on what I see today, we had a 1000 times more fun.One of the problems with baseball, that no one seems to address, is that it's a complicated game, which you need certain skills to enjoy.
You can't just take kids who don't know how to throw, catch and hit and expect them to step onto a diamond and have fun playing the game using essentially the same setup and rules as adult professional players. You actually need to take time and get those skills built first - and few if any systems do this, because of the traditional thirst society has for a "game" and "standings". If it were up to me, kids under 8 or 9 or so would just learn skills in an instructional program tricked into having fun playing games that more specifically focus on the skills of baseball, rather than actual baseball.
There is nothing fun about a t-ball game where no one ever makes and out and it's a 15-15 tie after three five-run limit innings...and most places, that's how a 5 year old gets introduced to baseball.
Gagliano said:You know what the worst thing is about baseball for kids? Parents. No, baseball is not a complicated game from the kids' perspective. A hundred years ago when I was a kid, we just went out in a field and played for hours, making up rules as we went, and didn't even have teams if we only had five guys or so. We did it without parents standing there pretending to be interested, and we used whatever equipment we had. And based on what I see today, we had a 1000 times more fun.
I know that sounded fuddy-duddyish, but it's easy to suck the fun out of baseball. In grade school, as soon as the mud in the schoolyard dried up, we were playing catch during every recess. Now? The kids aren't allowed to throw a baseball on school grounds unless it is supervised by a coach during organized ball.
Fred not Lynn said:You know, the other problem I was going to get to was the lack of "free play", where you just go at it in an unstructured environment for hours. Same deal with hockey...you need that time to really become automatic.
Problem is that that parent and youth sport industry driven programing doesn't make space this sort of thing.
Yeah, we used to just play catch for hours, pretending to be Luis Tiant or Bob Gibson, or we would just stand in the yard and swing the bat and pretend to be Yaz or Rico. It built up arm strength and coordination. When I watch my kids' games now, it's obvious that although the coaches do a great job in helping them be better players, the kids just aren't "fluid", for the lack of a better term. Their motions just aren't second nature.Fred not Lynn said:You know, the other problem I was going to get to was the lack of "free play", where you just go at it in an unstructured environment for hours. Same deal with hockey...you need that time to really become automatic.
Problem is that that parent and youth sport industry driven programing doesn't make space this sort of thing.
Gagliano said:Yeah, we used to just play catch for hours, pretending to be Luis Tiant or Bob Gibson, or we would just stand in the yard and swing the bat and pretend to be Yaz or Rico. It built up arm strength and coordination. When I watch my kids' games now, it's obvious that although the coaches do a great job in helping them be better players, the kids just aren't "fluid", for the lack of a better term. Their motions just aren't second nature.
I don't think kids today have the patience to play catch for a couple hours, plus they have many other options (video games, rec centers, day camps, whatever). And that's a huge detriment when it comes to baseball, because there really aren't any shortcuts: you have to suck at it for quite a while before you're good at it. With basketball, a kid can at least go out and shoot hoops by himself and have fun, even the first time he does it.
There is a big difference now though- portability. With smart phones, they literally can have internet and games with them 24/7. They have their faces planted in them for hours (and to be honest, adults are just as bad). I can't imagine many kids having the patience to play catch for an hour without checking his text messages.threecy said:I think video games are a convenient scapegoat, but I don't know if that's the cause, considering baseball was still very popular throughout the rise of Nintendo/Sega/et al.
Exactly correct.Wingack said:I just can't ever get worried about these decline of baseball articles, they have literally been around since the year 1900.
That quote is from 1955. Here are some others: http://www.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/baseball-is-dying-proclamations-031215“Baseball, we fear, is going the way of the horse and mustache cup.”
The fan base is aging. Twenty years ago in my town, thirty kids would show up to try out for 14 spots on the LL team. The last few years, eleven or twelve showed up and everyone made the team. Some surrounding towns even used to have two teams, and now some towns had to merge to even get one team combined.dynomite said:Exactly correct.
That quote is from 1955. Here are some others: http://www.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/baseball-is-dying-proclamations-031215
Not saying people in this thread are saying so, but the general perception that baseball is dying and kids have lost interest is nonsense. MLB is as profitable and healthy as ever (or at least as could be hoped). The league made $9 billion last season, nearly double NBA and triple NHL revenue, and attendance was over 75 million (!!!!) in total.
The market and landscape has changed, but baseball is doing just fine.
I think it was probably stronger before the 1994 strike. From my clouded memory, I seem to remember basketball becoming much cooler than baseball at my school around that time. SSS of course.Wingack said:Is the interest in baseball among kids really all that different than it was in the 90's though? When I was a kid I don't recall neighborhood kids getting stickball games together very much. Maybe they just didn't invite me.
That's hit a fungoe, and unless someong catches it on a fly, they have to throw it back and hit the bat lying on the ground? Don't hit the bat, same kids hits again? Hit the bat, you're up?Montana Fan said:Christ I loved playing "over the wires" or "hit the bat".
AlNipper49 said:
This is exactly the issue. We'd go to practice and my son would basically stand in fucking line waiting to take a single grounder then move to the back.
twothousandone said:That's hit a fungoe, and unless someong catches it on a fly, they have to throw it back and hit the bat lying on the ground? Don't hit the bat, same kids hits again? Hit the bat, you're up?
I used to love that game -- taught us to catch fly balls, scoop up grounders. Taught us to throw on a line. And taught us to stand around waiting for serendipity to send the ball in our direction. Which is a bit of the yin and yang. As Nip says above, if a coach at practice can't keep kids from standing around waiting for their turn, that coach needs help. But, when it's kids being kids, there's a lot of standing around. The former is bad, the latter is good.
iayork said:. The parents I've seen have almost all been great, enthusiastic but not overbearing. (Compare and contrast: Soccer dads. What a bunch of assholes.)
Sure, this is just my experience, not a randomized survey. All I know is that every single time I take my kid to a soccer game, there are one or two dads who spend the game screaming at their kids and the refs, while I've seen maybe one or two instances of that in a far greater sample of baseball games.DrewDawg said:
Come on, unless there's something that pushes assholes to push their kids towards soccer, this isn't the case.
There are assholes and great parents in every sport.
Gagliano said:There is a big difference now though- portability. With smart phones, they literally can have internet and games with them 24/7. They have their faces planted in them for hours (and to be honest, adults are just as bad). I can't imagine many kids having the patience to play catch for an hour without checking his text messages.
While neighborhood games become increasingly scarce, year-round travel teams have never been more prevalent. The U.S. Specialty Sports Association, the dominant organizing body for travel baseball, said it has around 1.3 million players spread across 80,000 teams, more than double what it had 10 years ago. The company’s website includes national rankings for teams in age groups that begin at “4 and under.” ... But the cost of that lifestyle—thousands of dollars a year in many cases—puts it out of reach for many parents. It skews heavily white: A 15-year study of travel teams by Nebraska researcher David Ogden found that only 3% of players are black. And its popularity has made baseball more of a niche sport, precisely what MLB wants to avoid at the spectator level.
I don't blame you. Who wants to teach their kid anything? Especially on the weekend!Hagios said:
That was my experience with T-Ball too. It's a total joke and the kids don't learn anything except what their dads teach them on their own time. And I'm not one of those superdads who spends hours playing catch with their son. On Saturday afternoon while the burgers are cooking, sure, but I don't want to be my son's coach. So we never did T-Ball again.
lexrageorge said:Anecdotal story coming up, but one that's similar to others I've heard.
When my son was doing rec league baseball, he enjoyed it until they got to the point where they went full time player pitch (as opposed to coaches pitching after the first 5 pitches per batter). The team had around 15-18 players or so, and they used a rotating batting order. Which means that the player who made last out in the prior game would bat last in the next game. They had similar rules for substitutions. Players that started one game on the bench would be automatically allowed to start the next game in the field.
Supposedly. Turns out the coaches of my son's team ignored the rules in order to get the kids geared for travel team the following season the most at bats and the most playing time in the field. The head coach was also the league coordinator, so this wasn't a case of a coach going rogue. Remember, these kids were 8, not 18. By the midway through the season my son, who was obviously not one of the targeted travel players, was ready to quit. I made him stick out the season, but there was no way I was going to sign him up for another year of baseball. He's had no interest since in picking up a ball or glove or bat; can't blame him either. He's much happier in soccer and hockey.
The other problem is that players get better through practice; practices in this league were non-existent. Batting cage time was reserved for the chosen as well.
So, I cannot say I'm surprised that participation in baseball youth leagues has declined so dramatically The WSJ article did mention the problems facing poorer towns where many kids are unable to afford travel ball. The idea of "baseball for fun" is anathema to most parents, which is a shame.
And the ranking of "4 and under" teams is totally absurd and pointless. But the supply exists because the demand for such rankings exist, and it's not the 4 year old kids that are demanding those rankings.
EIGHTEEN kids on a 8 year-olds baseball team? That's just incompetent organizing.lexrageorge said:Anecdotal story coming up, but one that's similar to others I've heard.
When my son was doing rec league baseball, he enjoyed it until they got to the point where they went full time player pitch (as opposed to coaches pitching after the first 5 pitches per batter). The team had around 15-18 players or so, and they used a rotating batting order.
Supposedly. Turns out the coaches of my son's team ignored the rules in order to get the kids geared for travel team the following season the most at bats and the most playing time in the field. The head coach was also the league coordinator, so this wasn't a case of a coach going rogue. Remember, these kids were 8, not 18.
People were predicting that boxing and horse racing were dying back then, too -- and they were right.dynomite said:That quote is from 1955. Here are some others: http://www.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/baseball-is-dying-proclamations-031215
Not saying people in this thread are saying so, but the general perception that baseball is dying and kids have lost interest is nonsense.
The market and landscape has changed, but baseball is doing just fine.
27 years? Seems about the right amount of time for the generational shift we're talking about.HriniakPosterChild said:That goose went into the oven in 1988.
And those of us who live (and especially those who work) in the Pacific Time zone appreciate that the games start when they do.
I'm pretty sure there was a "your memories of Game 6 of the 75 World Series" thread on here about ten years ago where several posters mentioned sneaking in radios to bed or just flat out not finding out the score until the next day.Fred not Lynn said:Every once in a while, for a pretty cool special event, I think it's OK for a 9 year old to stay up past his or her bedtime. I'm pretty sure it's not going to stunt anyone's growth.