Lot of chatter in the 2015 Sox thread about moving Nap. Thought it's an interesting enough idea that it warrants it own topic. I've certainly seen it suggested (by Dave Cameron at least) that the Sox could get by with a Craig/Nava platoon.
Murby said:I would be for moving Napoli for the right deal. However, I too have same thoughts as Rudy. Don't forget the signed him original deal, then strong-armed him to take less money after the FA period was basically over. Then he takes less money to come back. Then if they trade him....oof. But, the business of baseball seems to suggest you should consider it.
santadevil said:
Don't forget, he was initially going to sign a 3/$39 offer for 2013-2015, but then the hip thing came into play and he was signed at $5, plus potential for $8 more which I believe he received and then resigned for 2/$32, giving him essentially 3/45 contract, which worked out better.
So I don't think he was "strong-armed" into taking that offer.
He was a free agent and didn't have to come back after the 2013 World Series win.
But, I'd hate to see him traded. I guess if they can get a decent middle of the rotation starting pitcher for him now, they definitely should check into it, but personally I would like to keep him.
Sure. If the right package comes along then anyone is available. Napoli is a good bat but he isn't a better player than Cespedes. He is however very streaky and clutch which evens things out a bit. Cespedes and Napoli would however have equal value on the market right now since if Napoli is acquired before the start of the year he would be eligible for the QO. Cespedes obviously is ineligible for that honor. I would rather keep Napoli than trade him as the teammate thing really wins out overall. That's a guy who I want to see end his career here.67WasBest said:They seem to be placing a higher value on guys who can, and more importantly will, play multiple positions. I can absolutely see them dealing Napoli if they right package can be returned.
White Sox have LaRoche and Abreu for the 1B/DH roles, they can be removedgrimshaw said:Teams that could use upgrades at 1B/DH
-Houston
-White Sox (at the DH spot)
-Royals - (DH to replace Willingham)
-Mariners (DH)
-Jays
-Marlins
-Phillies
-Padres
The Mariners and Royals seem like the best fits as teams that are in GFIN mode. Obviously the price tag is outside of the Royals norm. The Marlins and White Sox are the only other possible suitors I see.
MakMan44 said:I certainly wasn't suggesting it as an alternative to solving the OF glut, rather that we could bolster the rotation by trading Napoli and replace him with a Craig/Nava platoon. So this would be on top of a Cepsedes trade, not instead of. But that's just how I'm framing it.
I share the concern about depending on Craig. Not as down as many, but we should not have any question marks at the end of this process. I'm more inclined to see Hanley at 1B should Napoli be dealt, with Cespedes, Castillo Betts across the outfield. If tehy deal both Cespedes and Napoli, then Hanley ayt 1B, Victorino in the OF, with Craig/Nava as a fallback and Brentz/Nava as a deeper fallback.rodderick said:
This isn't a bad idea in a vacuum, but I have a hard time feeling good about a plan that guarantees Allen Craig a lot of ABs. I just have no idea what he is right now.
Well, he still managed an .693 OPS and 92 wRC+ against LHP last year. That's not great but I think it's enough that if he can at least match, a platoon with Nava is manageable if the upgrade to the rotation is significant.rodderick said:
This isn't a bad idea in a vacuum, but I have a hard time feeling good about a plan that guarantees Allen Craig a lot of ABs. I just have no idea what he is right now.
Oh ya . . . him. Stupid non-updated depth chart.67WasBest said:White Sox have LaRoche and Abreu for the 1B/DH roles, they can be removed
I seriously, seriously doubt it.Reggie's Racquet said:Regarding positional flexibility mentioned above could Napoli be our backup catcher once a week...or has that s(hip) sailed?
They didn't contemplate it in an emergency situation last year, so I think that unlikely.Reggie's Racquet said:Regarding positional flexibility mentioned above could Napoli be our backup catcher once a week...or has that s(hip) sailed?
MakMan44 said:Well, he still managed an .693 OPS and 92 wRC+ against LHP last year. That's not great but I think it's enough that if he can at least match, a platoon with Nava is manageable if the upgrade to the rotation is significant.
Good suggestion on Middlebrooks.radsoxfan said:
That's pretty terrible coming from part of your first base platoon. I certainly want no part of Craig if that's going to be his line against LHP. As much as I have been anti-Middlebrooks for quite a long time, he's probably going to beat that line vs. LHP. He's at a .758 OPS and a 102 wRC+ for his career against lefties.
I don't think you trade Napoli unless for some reason another team values him way more than I think they should. On a one year deal, he's solid value for the Red Sox, at a non-redundant position. Cespedes has to be the one to go, and fortunately it seems as like there are a lot of teams interested.
MakMan44 said:Good suggestion on Middlebrooks.
My ideal scenario from trading both (just to get it out there) is Napoli to the M's for Iwakuma and Cepedes to the Reds for Latos. I think the upgrade to the rotation in that case is big enough that you can handle the platoon at 1st.
MakMan44 said:Good suggestion on Middlebrooks.
My ideal scenario from trading both (just to get it out there) is Napoli to the M's for Iwakuma and Cepedes to the Reds for Latos. I think the upgrade to the rotation in that case is big enough that you can handle the platoon at 1st.
I don't think it's some great need either but we're talking about something like 200 PAs over the course of the season. Napoli himself had only 140 (should go up next season but not a great deal.) If the right deal comes along, I think the upgrade to the rotation over the course of the season is worth the downgrade in those PAs.radsoxfan said:
To be clear, more than advocating Middlebrooks, I'm pointing out how terrible that line would be from a 1st baseman on the good side of his platoon. Middlebrooks would also be a pretty bad fallback plan in my opinion. Napoli put up a .939 OPS and a 162 wRC+ against lefties last year, while still being a better than league average hitter versus righties.
In the right deal Napoli should be considered, I just think he has a lot of value to the Red Sox next year because the Nava/Craig platoon has the potential to be pretty terrible. I like Nava as a nice fill-in guy, but getting 70% of our ABs at 1B? No thanks.
Certainly if another team gives you silly value for Nap, it could be worth it. But the obvious right handed bat to go given the current roster construction, and how much they are likely to get in return, is Cespedes. Napoli would be pretty far down on my "need to trade" list if I was Ben.
Ahh, gotcha. Maybe as part of a package? I think it seems like a tough sell. What I'm thinking is that Nap plays a position that's not that difficult to fill and bats from the more common side of the plate. I know right handed power is thought to be in short supply, but I think teams will likely view Nap as a three win player. Let's say you put a premium on wins coming from a short-term contract, and also there is upside value in possibly being able to use a QO on Nap if he has a good year to get a draft pick or leverage to resign. Even with all that, maybe we say $8 million a win. 8.5? That's stll just about $8m of value more than his contract. It's just hard to imagine a rational trading partner giving up something worth more than we already have.MakMan44 said:I certainly wasn't suggesting it as an alternative to solving the OF glut, rather that we could bolster the rotation by trading Napoli and replace him with a Craig/Nava platoon. So this would be on top of a Cepsedes trade, not instead of. But that's just how I'm framing it.
smastroyin said:I'll be honest, I don't see the point in spending a bunch of money in order to then trade one of their more reliable players. Sure, he will miss 30-40 games most likely, but he'll give the good first base defense and an wOBA over .350 pretty reliably. That's nothing to just toss in the gutter hoping that Craig and Nava figure themselves out. Of course, if they get a great offer for him, then ok, but I would hope it would be an offer that helps the 2015 major league team.
I'd feel differently if it weren't for all of the other spending. Then I would say the best way for them to extract value is likely to find the best trade partner for Napoli to get something for him, then see if Craig can hit and recover his own value. But if you are putting all of this money into contracts, why add question marks to the 2015 team.
I still really hate the acquisition of Craig. Hope I'm as wrong about that as I was about Victorino two years ago.
MakMan44 said:I don't think it's some great need either but we're talking about something like 200 PAs over the course of the season. Napoli himself had only 140 (should go up next season but not a great deal.) If the right deal comes along, I think the upgrade to the rotation over the course of the season is worth the downgrade in those PAs.
EDIT: Actually, when I think about it, this is a pretty obvious point. The better question is contained within the bolded.
Why waste time discussing what can't be changed? Just a waste of time.Plympton91 said:Napoli as the primary first baseman, but Nava getting 35-40 starts against right handlers would be a potentially monstrous combined line. I agree with those who say trading Cespedes makes a lot more sense.
Of course, not signing Sandoval and avoiding this "problem" would have been even better.
I real like keeping Napoli here for his defense and club house presence but the trade scenario suggested actually makes a great deal of sense. I'm a little unsure of Craig but willing to give him a chance with Nava platooning with him. The Middlebrooks to 1B is interesting. If the Sox could get Iwakuma & Latos I could live with the trade.MakMan44 said:Good suggestion on Middlebrooks.
My ideal scenario from trading both (just to get it out there) is Napoli to the M's for Iwakuma and Cepedes to the Reds for Latos. I think the upgrade to the rotation in that case is big enough that you can handle the platoon at 1st.
They've all but said they're OK with blowing past the luxury tax number for one year, and Napoli has one year left, so I don't think they trade him for salary reasons.Sampo Gida said:One reason to trade Napoli IMO is as a salary dump in the event the Red Sox want to acquire both Lester and Hamels, or two such pitchers.
Another might be if they think Hanley is better suited to play 1B than LF.
I doubt the return is much on a Napoli trade since his salary pretty much wipes out his surplus value.
The threshold level for the luxury tax will be $189MM in 2014 (up from $178MM from 2011-2013) and will remain at $189MM through 2016. From 2012 through 2016, teams who exceed the threshold for the first time must pay 17.5% of the amount they are over, 30% for the second consecutive year over, 40% for the third consecutive year over, and 50% for four or more consecutive years over the cap
Hank Scorpio said:I'll start by posting what I think the opening day lineup should be.
Mookie Betts, RF
Dustin Pedroia, 2B
David Ortiz, DH
Hanley Ramirez, LF
Pablo Sandoval, 3B
Mike Napoli, 1B
Xander Bogaerts, SS
Rusney Castillo, CF
Christian Vazquez, C
OCD SS said:I think the chatter around Napoli stems only from other teams needing to plug their own holes at 1B and there being a dearth of options now that Laroche is off the board. Napoli, being a high OBP, high SLG 1Bman who plays good defense on a short contract is clearly more desireble than Craig (who is basically Mike Lowell c. 2005, value wise) so pundits for other teams will come up with deals to land him at below market cost (like Dave Cameron's recent article).
The Sox are clearly making a big push in for 2015, and they have no reason to move Napoli. They can play through the year with him and make a QO to bring him back. They don't even need to move Craig, who hey can stash in AAA as "deep depth" and see if he regains some value.
Very unlikely that it matters whether the payroll is $190M or $250M next season, as long as enough salary is off the books by 2016 or 2017 in order to reset the luxury tax. If Napoli had another year or two in his deal after 2015, then it would make. More sense to move him for financial reasons.The Boomer said:What if for financial reasons, to limit how far above the luxury tax they will go, it's a choice between Napoli and Lester? Do you keep Napoli to maximize your flexibility or sign Lester for 6 years? Making such choices is truly what distinguishes the Sox from the Yankees. I don't see them signing Lester to what he will require without trimming some salary somewhere else on the roster.