The story I heard was Phoenix said no to Phil's offer (#4 and Booker) for KP. I'm not inclined to better that offer and IMO the #3 and the Nets '18 pick is too much to offer so I notched it down to the #3 and a good player.
Woj: Porzingis May Be Available
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
He's not as good as Horford right now. It's very hard to project his upside because there aren't a lot of historical comparables. Plus there's the injury concerns, among other issues. He could be tremendous; I get why people want him. I'm not sure it's the best risk for the Celtics to dive into. Phil Jackson has lost his mind, but I'm not ready to consider him a dummy.
Only thing I'm seeing is a rolled ankle a few times, a thigh injury and an achilles injury. All of them pretty minor by the sounds. No torn ligaments or anything serious at all. If that rumored deal is true, I think they should do it. He's exactly what this team's needs are at the moment.
Maybe. I think this board undervalues Booker quite a bit. I'm guessing he could be traded for a mid lottery pick at the least.
This isn't remotely true. He's getting killed in NYC for shopping Porzingis. Knicks fans desperately want a rebuild around KP.
It is exactly true
Phil has been getting killed for the better part of 2 years, as the feeling is he has no plan, has no idea what he is doing, is unreasonably wed to the "Triangle" and its reliance on mid-range 2's, trashed Melo killing his trade value, and probably got lucky with KP., and is an arrogant asshole willing to throw anyone under the bus.
And yes fans are now pissed that he's now devalued KP.
If Phil wants to destroy the Knicks, I'm fine with it, and I see no reason to bail him out.
And you think that the solution to all that is for Phil to trade Porzingis for #3 and Avery Bradley?
Your suggestion solves none of what Phil's being trashed for, not does it even fulfill your own stated "he needs players." You're basically saying that Phil is getting killed in New York and therefore should continue to do all of the things he's getting killed in New York for doing.
Yes on #3 and the LAL/SAC pick, although if Phil really like Crowder, I'd rather throw in some players and keep one of those two assets.
Pass if Nets '18 is involved. While nothing is guaranteed, I like our chances of getting a superstar out of that pick, considering the strength of the upcoming HS seniors (and juniors who could also be available).
Pass if Nets '18 is involved. While nothing is guaranteed, I like our chances of getting a superstar out of that pick, considering the strength of the upcoming HS seniors (and juniors who could also be available).
HEH
I'm not trying to solve Phil's problem, I'm trying to leverage them to "my" (Celts) benefit.
Phil made it known he was willing to trade KP.
I suggested a trade package for KP that was at a discount to one that he offered (#4 and Booker) and was rebuffed by Phoenix.
He can accept or reject.
And I pointed out that you a) misinterpreted Phil's problem and b) didn't even offer a solution to your misinterpretation of the problem.
And I pointed out you were dead wrong, and I gave you several examples of how Phil is distressed.
Phils been under fire in NYC for a couple of years, not just the past few days.
Anytime you would like to retract your wholly misleading
"This isn't remotely true"
would be appreciated.
Considering Porzingis "available" or surmising that Phil is shopping him is some extreme wishcasting based on the actual content of Woj's article that appeared on the Vertical. Here are two money quotes from his article:
"The Knicks are poised to begin listening to rival teams’ pitches on potential Porzingis deals, league sources said"
and,
"The Knicks haven’t been engaging with teams on Porzingis, but that possibility is becoming more intriguing to Jackson between now and Thursday’s draft, league sources said."
Nowhere in that does it say that Jackson is trading KP. There's a wide chasm between shopping a player and thinking of listening to offers.
"The Knicks are poised to begin listening to rival teams’ pitches on potential Porzingis deals, league sources said"
and,
"The Knicks haven’t been engaging with teams on Porzingis, but that possibility is becoming more intriguing to Jackson between now and Thursday’s draft, league sources said."
Nowhere in that does it say that Jackson is trading KP. There's a wide chasm between shopping a player and thinking of listening to offers.
Phil's getting killed in NY because he's treated his (former) star, a veteran well-respected throughout the league, like garbage and inexplicably alienated the most exciting prospect the fans have had to cheer for in years, which in turn have made a once-marquee destination less attractive to potential free agents. And the triangle, and the Noah contract, but mainly the first point. If Phil sells Porzingis now, the return has to be a helluva lot better than the #3 and one of Bradley/Smart/Crowder.
How, exactly, has Phil devalued Porzingis? He's listening to offers for him in the hopes of a Brooklyn type offer to save him from the disaster that's the rest of his roster. He's helped trash Melo's value, but not KP's.
I think this shows exactly why Danny did the trade with Philly as early as he did: he can now shop around that #3 pick and various other assets right up until draft time. For all we know the Celtics internally have already decided to trade for either Butler or Porzingis and are just biding their time considering the proposals and telling the Knicks and Chicago that their current offers are not good enough in the hopes of pressuring them into a better deal.
Or, the Celtics are determined to take Tatum (or whoever) with #3 unless they get blown away with an offer. Either way, they have tons more flexibility now that they wouldn't have had if Danny had waited to do the 1/3 swap with Philly in the hope of pressuring them into a better deal (e.g. removing the #1 protection from the 2018 and/or 2019 picks).
Or, the Celtics are determined to take Tatum (or whoever) with #3 unless they get blown away with an offer. Either way, they have tons more flexibility now that they wouldn't have had if Danny had waited to do the 1/3 swap with Philly in the hope of pressuring them into a better deal (e.g. removing the #1 protection from the 2018 and/or 2019 picks).
Correct Phil has been under fire for the past couple of years (not the past few days) because he has done a terrible job as head of Knicks basketball ops And i cited a few examples,that you also mentioned.
It was not my idea to entertain offers for KP, it was Phil's.
And if press reports are to be believed he set his price at #4 and Booker, and the Suns said "no".
If I were Ainge I would measure my offer againt the Phils original offer and work down from there.
Its part of a negotiation.
And I'm not sure that #3 and a choice (Bradley etal) is materially less than #4 and Booker.
Phil can accept, reject or counter.
Again it is Ainges job to build the Celts, not the Knicks.
True, but Ainge has to proceed within the realities of the actual NBA landscape, not in a Celtics' fan's fevered wet dream version.
the Latvian unicorn is not my fantasy.
My fantasy involves a bigger deal down the road for Anthony Davis. (and I carry kleenex just in case)
I used Phi's reported offer as a guide to that landscape to fashion a competitive proposal.
If it is insufficient it can be rejected or countered.
.
You said:
It may not have been your intention, but that pretty clearly implies that he's getting killed because he needs players. I pointed out why that isn't remotely true. And then you agreed with me, by pointing out all of the reasons he's getting killed, none of which involve his needing players.
It's been pointed out by a bunch of people by now why your offer isn't a good one. I get that your whole point is not to make a good offer or whatever, but I think you're capable of seeing why Bradley and Booker aren't really comparable pieces.
G&MB - you should review the controversies surrounding the Oxford comma. It explains your beef with Bankshot!
Super slow day, sure, but let's take this particular not very interesting back and forth to PM please.
In my 2nd post to you I expanded upon Phil and his distress levels and why he has been under fire. I thought it was pretty clear particualry as I gave you several reasons. These reasons were later added to by other posters.(Noah's bad contract etc).
.
As to Bradley and Booker, I posted the #3 was superior to the #4, and that I was working off of a discount to what Phil had offered. And I posted it was not Ainge's job to bail out and help Phil re-build the Knicks.
If Phil and this entire board thinks it inadequate that's fine, I'm not looking to pay a dollar for a dollar.
Any time you would like to retract your misleading "Its not remotely true" would be appreciated.
I explained the source of the confusion. I thought you were saying that Phil was getting killed and needed players, and suggesting that trading Porzingis would somehow satiate Knicks fans. I now understand those points weren't connected.
Woj on FB Live says Jackson has been making calls on Porzingis trying to get a top-4 pick and an "established starter". I wonder which team in the top 4 can pull that off.....
If the price really is #3 and one of AB/Crowder/Smart, I'm all on board with that barring the medicals. It frees up even more money if it's one of AB or Crowder. That really can't be the price though? IT4 too, I suppose. If they traded IT4 and the #3 for Porzingis, would they still have the cap space to potentially trade for Butler or George and still sign Hayward?
I mean, that's the price that they are rumored to have told Phoenix. Would be pretty surprised if Ainge turned that down assuming he didn't need those pieces for something else.
Phil Jackson on MSG right now. It sure sounds like he's open to dealing him. Did not come out and shoot down rumors.
But the Celtics can have their doctors give a physical and have a look at his medical records, can't they? It's not like they go in blind and roll the dice. If we get to keep the Nets '18 pick, there's no reason not to do this. We'd be getting a young player that could very possibly end up being better than anyone in this year's draft.
They'd probably have to trade Crowder and(or?) Bradley to make room. Still though -
PG - Smart
SG - Hayward
SF - Butler/George
PF - Porzingis
C - Horford
That's a pretty great defensive team.
Maybe if you trade IT you shoot for CP3 instead?
PG - Paul
SG - Butler
SF - Crowder/Jaylen
PF - Porzingis
C - Horford
I thought the rumor was that the Knicks wouldn't do #4 and Booker? I'm on record as thinking Booker is generally over-valued, but if Phil turns around and deals him for #3 and Crowder, Knick fans will rightfully riot.
This is what Phil said to MSG.
On Kristaps, Phil said, "As much as we love this guiy, we have to do what's best for the club."
Phil: "I don't think I've ever had a player, over 25 years of coaching, maybe 30, not come to an exit meeting. It's not happened to me."
On Kristaps, Phil said, "As much as we love this guiy, we have to do what's best for the club."
Phil: "I don't think I've ever had a player, over 25 years of coaching, maybe 30, not come to an exit meeting. It's not happened to me."
So.... would you do this trade....
Porzingis
Randle (salary)
#8
For
#3
LAL/SAC 1st
LAC 1st
MEM 1st
Isaiah Thomas
Edit- probably not enough, but that's the kind of deal I'd be trying to make, move Thomas replace him at 8 with whichever of the top 5 PGs is left. I wonder if I need to add Crowder for Lance Thomas?
Porzingis
Randle (salary)
#8
For
#3
LAL/SAC 1st
LAC 1st
MEM 1st
Isaiah Thomas
Edit- probably not enough, but that's the kind of deal I'd be trying to make, move Thomas replace him at 8 with whichever of the top 5 PGs is left. I wonder if I need to add Crowder for Lance Thomas?
Oh, my bad. I thought Phoenix turned that down. If the price is 3/Crowder and a non Nets/Lakers/Kings pick, you have to do it unless you think he's Yao Ming 2.0 and will be done in less than 5 years.
Sounds like Phil is taking his snub personally. Get even, Phil! You da man!
If the Celtics really are interested in trading down in the draft for Dennis Smith, the Knicks pick 8th.
#3, IT4, Lakers/Kings Pick for
#8, KP + filler
#3, IT4, Lakers/Kings Pick for
#8, KP + filler
So this is real? It sounds kinda like it's going to go down like the Cousins trade where they get 50 cents to the dollar.
Almost the same idea I had, though I think that's way short,
Minimum I think you add 2 of the lesser 1sts.
Max I consider is also adding Crowder for Lance Thomas's matching contract.
That leaves you....
Smart/#8/Rozier
Bradley/Smart/Brown
Hayward?/Brown/Thomas
Horford/?/?
Porzingis/Zizic/?
That's pretty nice looking short and Long term.