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Where Does Bergeron Rank Among Bruin Greats

Discussion in 'Rick Middleton's Pron 'Stache: Bruins Forum' started by scotian1, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. scotian1

    scotian1 Member SoSH Member

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  2. tonyandpals

    tonyandpals Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I think he's done a lot in the last 8 years (since that list was published) to earn a top 10 nod.
     
  3. scotian1

    scotian1 Member SoSH Member

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    Bergeron's credentials include being a Stanley Champion, a two time Olympic Champion, World Jr. Champion, a World Championsip and Spengler Cup Champion. He is a member of the elite Triple Gold Club. He has 4 Selke Trophies tying him in all time wins with Bob Gainey. He is one of the best two way forwards in hockey history and one of the all time best faceoff men. I would rank him at least 6th on the list maybe even higher.
     
    #3 scotian1, Jan 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  4. FL4WL3SS

    FL4WL3SS Member SoSH Member

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    I completely agree, he does it all and has meant more to the team than anyone else. He still has at least another 5 years of production, when all is said and done, he might rank top 3-5 easily.
     
  5. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    I find these really hard, because how exactly do you compare Patrice Bergeron to an Ernie Shore or a Lionel Hitchman?

    I'm a post-Orr fan, so I guess my Bruin lineup of players I've seen would have to be...

    Bergeron, with Neely and Middleton up front, Bourque and Chara on D, and Rask in net.
     
  6. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    I don’t know enough about guys like Clapper and Hitchman, but to me Bergy would be 4/5.

    Schmidt
    Orr
    Bourque
    Shore
    Bergy
    Bucyk
    Neely
    O’Reilly
    Chara
    Esposito

    Iffy on Espo.
     
  7. scotian1

    scotian1 Member SoSH Member

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    There is no doubt about who is the greatest ie Orr. Not only the greatest Bruin but in my mind the greatest I have ever seen play hockey. The only skater who even comes close to him in present day NHL is McDavid, Besides being the dominant offensive performer of his time in the League, he was also a remarkable defender. I agree it is hard to judge those we have never had a chance of seeing play, If I was judging by only players I have witnessed, I would rank Bergeron 3rd behind Orr and Bourque.
     
  8. RoDaddy

    RoDaddy Well-Known Member Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    Surprised that O'Reilly is on that original top 10 list. I loved watching him play but the the dude couldn't skate at all and wasn't a great scorer. To me, Brad Park, Chara, Cheevers, and Bergeron were all better. I'd probably put Bergeron 7th on the list behind Orr, Bourque, Shore, Espo (the scoring numbers were unbelievable, and he did it for so long), Schmidt, and Chief.
     
  9. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    I don't know how anyone could be iffy on Esposito and his 459 goals and 1012 points in 625 games wearing the spoked B. Boston got Espo for the 9 best years of his career. He was a far, far more significant player than Terry O'Reilly.

    If I arbitrarily ignore the older players (Hitchman, Clapper, Thompson, Shore, Schmidt, Woody Dumart, Frank Brimsek, Cooney Weiland, among others), my arbitrary Top 10 rankings:

    Orr
    Esposito
    Bucyk
    Bourque
    Bergeron
    Neely
    Chara
    O'Reilly
    Middleton
    Park Cheevers

    Honorable Mention: Barry Pederson, for the trade that still lives on today in Zboril, Sean Kuraly, and Trent Frederic.

    EDIT: Slept on this a bit, and changed my #10 slot. For those around in the mid-70's, the buzz when Cheevers returned from his 2+ season exile in the WHA was palpable, and for good reason.
     
    #9 lexrageorge, Jan 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  10. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    I am aghast at people thinking there are ten better Bruins than Espo. Holy fuck.

    When Orr was hurt, which was often, he was the best player in the world. What he did in 72 for Canada is exponentially more significant than Bergeron in his several times with team Canada.

    Esposito not a top ten Bruin? Fucking young people. This is as dumb as all he guys saying Bird sucked and Gould not play in today's NBA.

    Esposito is one of the greatest players of all time, and his peak was with the Bruins.
     
  11. cshea

    cshea Member SoSH Member

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    OK so I said it. I was likely wrong, but here is my view.

    Yes, I am 33 so I never saw Espo play. I guess the main thing for me is he’s also never really been around the organization in his post-playing career, and seems to still harbor resentment towards the organization for trading him. He’s made a few comments about the Bruins since he got involved with the Lightning. Growing up whenever there would be any Bruin legend type event I’d always see Milt Schmidt, Bobby Orr, Johnny Bucyk, etc. but never Esposito. So I guess that clouds my view since I never saw him play.

    On ice I was wrong, he is top 10.
     
  12. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    This is why I didn't comment on anyone pre-Bourque. :)
     
  13. lexrageorge

    lexrageorge Member SoSH Member

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    To some extent, Esposito can be excused for his resentment. He did have offers to go play in the WHA for quite a bit more money than he got with the Bruins, but decided to stay out of loyalty. He ended up being happy in NY, and eventually became coach and GM of the Rangers for a while. And he's since made a home for himself down in Tampa, so he hasn't really had much opportunity to be involved with the Bruins. I seem to recall he would make an occasional appearance at the Garden when he was GM of Lightning when Tampa was playing, and he would acknowledge the applause he got during a play stoppage when an announcement was made.

    He did say nice things about the team during his number retirement ceremony, and was truly honored when Ray Bourque changed his number from 7 to 77. He just doesn't feel much nostalgia about the Bruins, which is probably a reflection of his personality more than anything else. I think now his attitude is less resentment than simply "Hey, they traded me, as did Chicago, so why should I feel any special feelings for either team?".

    And Esposito remains as a member of two of the all time greatest trades ever made by the Bruins, and would be the two best if not perhaps for the Neely trade.
     
  14. Dummy Hoy

    Dummy Hoy Angry Pissbum SoSH Member

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    I think there are only 8 guys (no goalies obviously) you could put ahead of Bergeron:
    Shore
    Schmidt
    Bucyk
    Orr
    Esposito
    Bourque
    Neely
    Chara

    I'll listen on Middleton and Clapper if people want to get pushy, but I think when he's all done, Bergeron is top 3 all time forward for the Bruins, maaaaybe #1.

    Side note- it's crazy that Boston has had 3 of the best 5(?) defensemen ever.
     
  15. BoSoxFink

    BoSoxFink Stripes SoSH Member

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    They may actually have the two best defenseman ever and it’s crazy that Bourque basically arrived almost right after Orr was gone
     
  16. mwonow

    mwonow Well-Known Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    This is a really interesting topic. As Scotian says, there's no way Orr can be anywhere other than #1 on this list - heck,if the debate expanded from "Bruins" to "NHL" he'd still have a pretty good claim to the top spot.

    Bourque and Bergie definitely belong high in the rankings. Espo, too. I only really know Schmidt by reputation, but by rep, this is a list he belongs on.

    There are a lot of interesting options after these five. Chara is a rock. Cam's peak was kind of short but really great. Park is kind of half-B, half Ranger, but he was sure good as a Bruin. I remember Bucyk as a player, but not as a dominant one - maybe I'm too young to really remember (started really watching in 1970), but he seems high on these lists. Middleton was the best scorer from the wing I've seen in a B's uni (though Marchand is definitely making a case for himself), so I feel badly about leaving him off the top 10, but I'm not sure who I'd bump to put him on.

    Maybe we need a list that sorts by role? Top 5 forwards, top 5 D, top 2-3 or so players mixing skill and toughness (hey, this is the Bruins, and there should be a way for Taz to get a mention), top 2-3 goalies? That would be 15 rather than 10, but would be a bit more apples-to-apples...
     
  17. reggiecleveland

    reggiecleveland sublime Lifetime Member SoSH Member

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    My take is Bourque and Bergeron are from an era when players looked after themselves and had longer careers. It is rare guys stay with one team so long. The Bruins have had too iconic stars careers cut short by knee injuries. The 70s juggernaut was derailed by booze, the WHA, and the Bill Belicek (Scotty Bowman) of the NHL.

    So Bergy has his own place on any list. His longevity in an era where hockey is truly international is exceptional.

    If he wins one more cup he will have as many as the 70s guys.
     
  18. WalletTrack

    WalletTrack Well-Known Member Silver Supporter SoSH Member

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    Bruins had one transcendent player.
    About four great epic players you can slot in after him. Shore, Schmidt, Espo and Bourque.
    After that, a number of excellent Hall of Famers and you wouldn't argue (any of them) their placement in rounding out a Bruin top ten.
    I give Kenny Hodge, Wayne Cashman, hell Stan Jonathan a spot before Terry O'Reilly. And I loved Terry O'Reilly.
     
  19. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    That's just absurd.
     
  20. gryoung

    gryoung Member SoSH Member

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    Maybe he really meant John Wensink.
     
  21. Reardons Beard

    Reardons Beard Member SoSH Member

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    Win at least one more Cup and play a strong 5+ years he's easy top 5 and in discussion for top 3.
     
  22. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    The year he is having thus far (25 G, 24 A in 49 games) kind of makes me wonder how much better his numbers could have been had he played in this system throughout his career.

    His best 2 years, points-wise, were his second (31 G, 42 A, 73 points) and third (22 G, 48 A, 70 points) seasons, playing for Mike Sullivan and Dave Lewis. 82 games pace of those years: 28 G, 47 A, 75 points.

    During his 9+ seasons under Julien (which included the year he missed with concussion and a lockout year), his 82 game pace was: 23-36-59. His best seasons was 2015-16, with 32 G, 36 A, 68 points.

    Under Cassidy, he has played about 1 full season: 76 games, 33 G, 40 A, 73 points - basically his career best production.
     
  23. Dummy Hoy

    Dummy Hoy Angry Pissbum SoSH Member

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    No doubt playing for Julien held back his numbers. Did he focus on and improve his 200ft game though?
     
  24. wnyghost

    wnyghost lurker

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    It also helps that his line includes Pasta and Marchand?
     
  25. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    Sure, but he's played with Pastrnak and Marchand before. And Seguin and Marchand. And he did 31 goals, 73 points as a 20 year old playing with Brad Boyes.
     
  26. wiffleballhero

    wiffleballhero Member SoSH Member

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    Hockey seems crazy hard to compare across eras. I can't imagine how to meaningfully adjudicate a decision about the virtues of a player in a six team league, playing 48 games a year with the skates and sticks from the 1940s vs the modern game. I get it, relative to their competition, but man, different games.

    In any case, first glancing at this, I would have said Orr, Bourque, Esposito, Schmidt, Bergeron, everybody else. But that probably rate Bergeron a bit high. Rick Middleton was better than I remember and Neely was fantastic too. But goodness, Bergeron has got to be top seven or eight, and out of the top 10 is just silly.
     
  27. bigq

    bigq lurker

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    I remembered Adam Oates being dominant for the Bruins in the 90s but after looking back on his career it seems he had phenomenal peak years but not enough years of dominance to merit consideration for Bruins top ten.

    His 142 points in 92-93 was among the best offensive performances I witnessed. 97 of those points came from assists. He truly was an artist in terms of setting up teammates for scoring opportunities.
     
  28. Eddie Jurak

    Eddie Jurak Go Leafs Go Lifetime Member Gold Supporter SoSH Member

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    His Bruin career was relatively short. I think he’d definitely be on my list if not for that.
     
  29. wnyghost

    wnyghost lurker

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    142 points!!! My initial thought was Neely scores 50 but he was hurt that season. It's crazy how Oates was only +15 for the year. Bourque was a studly +38.
     
  30. The Napkin

    The Napkin wise ass al kaprielian Dope SoSH Member

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    Chara seems to be a fan...

    [​IMG]
     
  31. TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle

    TheStoryofYourRedRightAnkle Member SoSH Member

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    You could build a bridge across the Charles with all the schnozz in that picture.
     
  32. biff_hardbody

    biff_hardbody lurker

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    That's pretty cool. By all accounts, those guys are two of the utmost professionals in sport. Day in, day out hustle. You always know you're going to get their best. Lead by example. No off the ice stuff. They have made being a Bruins fan a really positive experience the last 12 years.
     
  33. Reardons Beard

    Reardons Beard Member SoSH Member

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    I was a very embittered NHL fan just before the 2004-2005 lockout after the Bruins dropped game 7 to the Habs in the first round of the playoffs. Furiously disappointed in the Bruins play, the organization, and the league overall once the lockout kicked in.

    These two guys are a big reason I came back.
     
  34. jaytftwofive

    jaytftwofive lurker

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    Agree. Bucyk over them.
     
  35. jaytftwofive

    jaytftwofive lurker

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    I know Jean Ratelle didn't play that long with the Bruins but in that short time he was a big contributor. 155 goals and 306 assits in 5 and 3/4 seasons. Pretty good, pretty good. I don't think he's top ten but he is certainly hon. mention. And Espo shouldn't have any resentment, the trade ended up being better for us getting Jean and Park. How about Rick Middleton? I don't think I saw his name. I stand corrected, I did see him on a list.
     
    #35 jaytftwofive, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:53 PM
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018 at 11:06 PM
  36. RSN Diaspora

    RSN Diaspora molests goats for comedy SoSH Member

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    Discussion, maybe, but even with that it's hard to see him displacing Orr, Esposito, or Bourque. Of course, it would be a lovely conversation to have...
     

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