How do you solve a problem like Yoshida?

moondog80

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Yeah, people seem to want that slot for Raffy and I get that, but then what? We gonna trot Dalbec out there every day? As you said, no one is being block by Yoshida being on the roster.
If you could dump him, you do so to get out of paying the rest of his contract, and worry about who is going to take the lineup spot later. I'd happily play Dalbec every day if that's what it meant.

But you can't dump him. I'm not sure they could find someone to pay even 25% of his contract. So yeah, you gotta play him.
 

lexrageorge

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I understand less the desire to move Devers to full-time DH.

All they can do with Yoshida at this point is hope he figures things out. Or the coaches can help him. Neither may be the case, at which point they find a way to eat his contract during the offseason (although Henry is unlikely to ever allow that to happen).
 

jon abbey

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Also I don't think BOS would retain his rights under that scenario. If they DFAd him and no one picked him up along with his contract (a lock), he would become a free agent. He would then sign with a new team for the minimum, which gets subtracted from what BOS owes him. This is what happened/is happening with Aaron Hicks, he was released by NY in the middle of last season, and signed with BAL and now LAA, but NY is still paying him most of his salary from his big contract.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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How would he become a free agent? He doesn’t have enough service time; unless there are different rules for international signings like that?
 

jon abbey

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How would he become a free agent? He doesn’t have enough service time; unless there are different rules for international signings like that?
Hmm, you might be right, this isn't a situation that comes up much and I didn't realize that service time mattered, but I think you're right that it does.
 

HfxBob

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His career ops+ is 104. He hit well in Japan. The team stinks so may as well play the guy and see if he can still hit at 104, which would make him useful. If not, what have they really lost?
FanGraphs says he is not useful thus far in 2024 (fWAR of -0.3). Don't forget his complete absence of foot speed has an impact.

So he might cause us to lose an additional game or two, would be my answer.
 

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A little more than 10% of the season is over. He was projected to be a top 50 to100 hitter by every projection system. Sure it's heavy OBP driven and his complete lack of defensive value hurts him. But I don't get wanting Devers at DH and I don't get paying 75% of Yoshidas salary to trade him. He is still clearly the 4th best hitter on this team
 

BaseballJones

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FanGraphs says he is not useful thus far in 2024 (fWAR of -0.3). Don't forget his complete absence of foot speed has an impact.

So he might cause us to lose an additional game or two, would be my answer.

Yeah he hasn't been useful so far in 2024, that's for sure. And if they're going to lose 90+ games anyway, what's one or two more?
 

Fishy1

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I think the middling start for this team understandably has folks wanting to cut bait on some of the underperformers. Yoshida definitely had a better start last year, and it's disappointing to see him scuffling so badly to start this one.

I have some degree of faith he's going to figure things out though. I think he could still top the wrc+ of 107 he put up last year -- but he's not going to do that if he doesn't sort out his issues with plate discipline. He swung at some ungodly slop last night, and the BB rate is 7%, which is lower than league average. At a certain point we'll have to wonder if the pitch recognition is just... not very good.
 

TheYellowDart5

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This is by no means a scientific or perfect comparison, but in thinking of who Yoshida reminds me of (at least in terms of the shape of his production), my mind immediately goes here:

Eric Hosmer, 2018-23 (ages 28-33): .263/.323/.406, .314 wOBA, 99 wRC+, .143 ISO, 7.8% BB, 20.2% K, 56.6% GB, 6.2% Barrel rate, 42.6% Hard Hit rate
Yoshida so far (ages 29-30): .281/.332/.429, .331 wOBA, 105 wRC+, .148 ISO, 6% BB, 14% K, 53.6% GB, 6.2% Barrel rate, 39.8% Hard Hit rate
 

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Hmm, you might be right, this isn't a situation that comes up much and I didn't realize that service time mattered, but I think you're right that it does.
Players with less than 5 years of service time can be outrighted to the minor leagues once without their consent (the Sox did this with Christian Arroyo last year, and of course Rusney also). If it is someone who has been outrighted before or has 5+ years of service time, the player can either accept an outright assignment or choose free agency.

They're certainly not going to do this with Yoshida. I get that he's 0 for 10 in the last two games, but he's pretty much exactly where he was through 18 team games last year.

2023 through 18 team games: .167/.310/.250/.560, 1 HR, 6 RBI, 8 BB, 5 K
2024 through 18 team games: .215/.282/.292/.574, 1 HR, 8 RBI, 5 BB, 10 K

It was right about this point last year he started taking off.
 

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The Sox are probably going nowhere this year, and like has been said it’s not like he or Devers are blocking an uber prospect. Keep playing him and hope that he starts hitting. If he does, you might be able to ship him out for something tangible.

There’s no real need to just release the guy. Who’s going to take most of the DH ABs, Dalbec?
 

nvalvo

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As many have said, he's not blocking anyone in AAA. Yet.

It gets a bit more interesting in a few months when the current Sea Dogs get to Worcester, and more interesting still next spring.

For now, just let it ride. He's a smart and talented hitter, and he has a chance to make the needed adjustments. Hopefully he gets going again, and either cements his place in the lineup here or builds some trade value.
 

Rovin Romine

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I think the middling start for this team understandably has folks wanting to cut bait on some of the underperformers. Yoshida definitely had a better start last year, and it's disappointing to see him scuffling so badly to start this one.

I have some degree of faith he's going to figure things out though. I think he could still top the wrc+ of 107 he put up last year -- but he's not going to do that if he doesn't sort out his issues with plate discipline. He swung at some ungodly slop last night, and the BB rate is 7%, which is lower than league average. At a certain point we'll have to wonder if the pitch recognition is just... not very good.
I think what's frustrating everyone here is that this happened before - same kind of rollover IF hits. And it was addressed in 2023 and fixed: https://www.mlb.com/news/red-sox-masataka-yoshida-changed-batting-stance

His turn around started on April 20th. He missed 5 games from April 11-16 and had a total of 14 games played. But he just took off like a rocket. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=yoshima02&t=b&year=2023

Yoshida hit well enough in ST this year (.823 OPS) but since then, 18 games, 71ABs, he hasn't been himself. He's hitting sporadically and not striking out.
I am honestly kind of scratching my head here. It's largely the same issue. Weak ground ball contact that he rolls over.

Maybe the old fix isn't working, but it's not like they don't have something to build on.
 

Fishy1

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I think what's frustrating everyone here is that this happened before - same kind of rollover IF hits. And it was addressed in 2023 and fixed: https://www.mlb.com/news/red-sox-masataka-yoshida-changed-batting-stance

His turn around started on April 20th. He missed 5 games from April 11-16 and had a total of 14 games played. But he just took off like a rocket. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=yoshima02&t=b&year=2023

Yoshida hit well enough in ST this year (.823 OPS) but since then, 18 games, 71ABs, he hasn't been himself. He's hitting sporadically and not striking out.
I am honestly kind of scratching my head here. It's largely the same issue. Weak ground ball contact that he rolls over.

Maybe the old fix isn't working, but it's not like they don't have something to build on.
Yeah, and I mean, me too. But I suppose when some hitters get into a funk they encounter the same issue they always do. I remember the change he made. Sometimes it takes a guy a long time to get his mechanics sorted out when an issue like this arises.
 

moondog80

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I think what's frustrating everyone here is that this happened before - same kind of rollover IF hits. And it was addressed in 2023 and fixed: https://www.mlb.com/news/red-sox-masataka-yoshida-changed-batting-stance

His turn around started on April 20th. He missed 5 games from April 11-16 and had a total of 14 games played. But he just took off like a rocket. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=yoshima02&t=b&year=2023

Yoshida hit well enough in ST this year (.823 OPS) but since then, 18 games, 71ABs, he hasn't been himself. He's hitting sporadically and not striking out.
I am honestly kind of scratching my head here. It's largely the same issue. Weak ground ball contact that he rolls over.

Maybe the old fix isn't working, but it's not like they don't have something to build on.
This is well said. It's incredibly early. In the 10 day stretch last year starting on April 20 he went from 189/317/264 to 276/373/460.

Looking at the totality of his MLB career still leaves me not super optimistic. But for the foreseeable future, just keep running him out there.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Frankly, losing more games is probably long-term better for BOS than getting to .500 (or what not).
.500 is 81-81 for a full season. Playing just 5 games better than that puts a team in the WC mix. Any team that is playing .500 should not be making any drastic moves before mid July... but REALLY need to take a tough critical look at what the chances are that those 5 games can be made up by a trade. I'm Agnostic on Bloom (despite being called a supporter/defender) but his biggest flaw was not seeing the shit-show in the '22 trade deadline. Last season I can excuse him with the level of talent returning from injury, but I get the argument (and don't want to parse it out) why people fault him for that trade deadline too.
Either way... playing at .500 by the end of June isn't any sized lady singing on a season. Yoshida will get better. Rafaela will get better. The biggest issue is Devers and I'm pretty worried he's going to need surgery and will be out the season. Better to know that sooner rather than later because the version that's going out there now is not good.
 

HfxBob

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Either way... playing at .500 by the end of June isn't any sized lady singing on a season. Yoshida will get better. Rafaela will get better. The biggest issue is Devers and I'm pretty worried he's going to need surgery and will be out the season. Better to know that sooner rather than later because the version that's going out there now is not good.
Devers did have a double and 2 walks last night before leaving the game.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Maybe


Devers did have a double and 2 walks last night before leaving the game.
Sure.... a smaller sample size than the small in-season sample size of him with a .760 OPS so far. I REALLY like Raffy, don't love him... but for what he's being paid the Sox need him to be hitting at least around the .900 OPS, 30 HR guy. Again, just SSS as with Yoshida, Rafaela, etc.... But Devers hitting .760 and playing in only 66% of games this entire season isn't going to be good for the team. Am I wrong?
 

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I agree you have to keep running Yoshida out there for now, but his numbers since July 25 of last year are pretty anemic. In that span, totaling 271 PA, Yoshida is hitting .229 with a .262 OBP and .326 SLG for an OPS of.588. He has just 4 home runs with 11 walks and 48 Ks in that stretch. FWIW, through 7/25/23 Masa was slashing .320/.382/.506/.887 in 380 PA.

I'd give him some time, but it wouldn't be a very long leash.
 

shaggydog2000

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Sure.... a smaller sample size than the small in-season sample size of him with a .760 OPS so far. I REALLY like Raffy, don't love him... but for what he's being paid the Sox need him to be hitting at least around the .900 OPS, 30 HR guy. Again, just SSS as with Yoshida, Rafaela, etc.... But Devers hitting .760 and playing in only 66% of games this entire season isn't going to be good for the team. Am I wrong?
I don't want to turn this into a Raffy thread, but only 7 players had a .900+ OPS and 30 HRs last year. If you extend that range to an .850+ OPS and 30 HRs, you get 10 players, including Raffy. If you extend that to .850+ OPS and 20 HRs, you get only 18 players, and it includes Triston Casas. Devers is earning that contract, and Casas is on track to get an equivalent one. Yoshida may not be in the DH role next year or long term, but nobody seems to be pushing those two guys out of their positions and into his slot. If he doesn' t get his swing back, It's not like the Sox have so many good hitters they can't find a position for right now. Until that changes, why not give Yoshida time to work thing out. Putting Pablo Reyes in his slot is not helping. It's not like guys who are hitting well on other teams are going to be getting traded right now, or that guys off the street would improve things.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Sure.... a smaller sample size than the small in-season sample size of him with a .760 OPS so far. I REALLY like Raffy, don't love him... but for what he's being paid the Sox need him to be hitting at least around the .900 OPS, 30 HR guy. Again, just SSS as with Yoshida, Rafaela, etc.... But Devers hitting .760 and playing in only 66% of games this entire season isn't going to be good for the team. Am I wrong?
Of course it's not good for the team, but what is the alternative? Devers has been playing hurt.

There seem to be two paths possible: 1) live with his lesser production until he gets healthy or 2) put him on the IL so he can heal up properly and somehow replace him with someone who can produce better than a .760 OPS. Worth noting that despite the production being down, he's still at a 116 OPS+ so it's not exactly like he's giving them substandard offense.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Of course it's not good for the team, but what is the alternative? Devers has been playing hurt.

There seem to be two paths possible: 1) live with his lesser production until he gets healthy or 2) put him on the IL so he can heal up properly and somehow replace him with someone who can produce better than a .760 OPS. Worth noting that despite the production being down, he's still at a 116 OPS+ so it's not exactly like he's giving them substandard offense.
I'll continue the derailment I started but am stopping after responding here.... .I'm not advocating for benching Raffy at all (and don't think anyone is saying I thought that). To put this back into "Yoshida" context, it was in the discussion of what to do with a team sitting around .500 and wouldn't hurt playing Yoshida either way. I said that a team at .500 in early July is on track for an 81-81 record which is only 5 games out of what I think is a reasonable WC spot, so no... a team playing .500 isn't out of it. BUT.... that team really needs to look at whether it's worth doing something at the deadline to make up those 5 games or to decide that it's just not worth it. And (back to Devers)..... if Devers is playing injured, 66% of the time, hitting .760 OPS and the team is at .500... then the team isn't going to make up those 5 games IMO.
With Yoshida... it's different. He's not expected (and though overpaid, he's not Devers level paid) to be THE guy. If Yoshida is hitting .760 OPS, that's good ( not great) and a team may be willing to trade for him something way more than he'd bring back now.
 

moondog80

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Lineup decimated by injuries and two days in a row he’s on the bench. Hmm.
 

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Looked to me like he was kind of limping off the field after one of his at-bats Saturday but the telecast didn't mention anything about it, and Cora keeps saying he is not injured, so maybe I misinterpreted his walk as a limp when it wasn't.
It's pretty weird that he's not playing after a really good game on Saturday though.
 

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Looked to me like he was kind of limping off the field after one of his at-bats Saturday but the telecast didn't mention anything about it, and Cora keeps saying he is not injured, so maybe I misinterpreted his walk as a limp when it wasn't.
It's pretty weird that he's not playing after a really good game on Saturday though.
If Cora says Yoshida isn't injured then I guess we have to believe him. Yoshida did get hit by a pitch last night and was immediately pinch run for but I guess that probably had nothing to do with an injury and more to do with the game situation.
Could Yoshida get in Cora's doghouse ala Alex Verdugo? We have heard nothing about a bad attitude from Yoshida but to keep him on the pine with the bats struggling does seem curious.
 

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If Cora says Yoshida isn't injured then I guess we have to believe him. Yoshida did get hit by a pitch last night and was immediately pinch run for but I guess that probably had nothing to do with an injury and more to do with the game situation.
Could Yoshida get in Cora's doghouse ala Alex Verdugo? We have heard nothing about a bad attitude from Yoshida but to keep him on the pine with the bats struggling does seem curious.
He got hit on his elbow pad, and was removed for speed by Hamilton, who was going into the game anyway. Yes, that was totally about the game situation.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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If Cora says Yoshida isn't injured then I guess we have to believe him. Yoshida did get hit by a pitch last night and was immediately pinch run for but I guess that probably had nothing to do with an injury and more to do with the game situation.
Could Yoshida get in Cora's doghouse ala Alex Verdugo? We have heard nothing about a bad attitude from Yoshida but to keep him on the pine with the bats struggling does seem curious.
The trouble is the bats that aren't struggling are all outfielders (Abreu, Duran, Refsnyder), so how do you squeeze him into the lineup, especially using the DH spot to give guys like O'Neill and Devers soft returns? The only non-use of Yoshida I might question was Sunday (Heineman), but even that can be explained by the desire to stack the lineup with RHP against the lefty.
 

moondog80

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The trouble is the bats that aren't struggling are all outfielders (Abreu, Duran, Refsnyder), so how do you squeeze him into the lineup, especially using the DH spot to give guys like O'Neill and Devers soft returns? The only non-use of Yoshida I might question was Sunday (Heineman), but even that can be explained by the desire to stack the lineup with RHP against the lefty.
Today I get. Yesterday I mostly get (could have put him in for Ref or Dalbec given a RH but whatever, maybe they don't think Ref can handle 1B).

Sunday -- his platoon split isn't especially stark (735 vs L/786 vs R). I don't get this one at all, it's not quite Mr Burns pulling Strawberry for Homer to get the platoon advantage, but it's tough to understand going with the emergency catcher, especially in light of the fact that Yoshida had just had two good games after sitting last Wednesday and Thursday week, both times vs RHP. And he had to know O'Neill and Devers were coming back this week and would need a DH day or two.

I don't know what's going on, but this isn't just a series of unfortunate events. I'm not even saying Cora is wrong -- he knows the situation better than I do, maybe Yoshida really should be limited to DH against some but not all righties. Maybe he hasn't been putting in the effort and Cora is sending a message. Maybe Cora just thinks an extended rest will help him. But something is up.
 
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Rovin Romine

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Today I get. Yesterday I mostly get (could have put him in for Ref or Dalbec given a RH but whatever, maybe they don't think Ref can handle 1B).

Sunday -- his platoon split isn't especially stark (735 vs L/786 vs R). I don't get this one at all, it's not quite Mr Burns pulling Strawberry for Homer to get the platoon advantage, but it's tough to understand going with the emergency catcher, especially in light of the fact that Yoshida had just had two good games after sitting last Wednesday and Thursday week, both times vs RHP. And he had to know O'Neill and Devers were coming back this week and would need a DH day or two.

I don't know what's going on, but this isn't just a series of unfortunate events. I'm not even saying Cora is wrong -- he knows the situation better than I do, maybe Yoshida really should be limited to DH against some but not all righties. Maybe he hasn't been putting in the effort and Cora is sending a message. Maybe Cora just thinks an extended rest will help him. But something is up.
This is getting silly. Yoshida hasn't hit consistently this year and the team is dealing with transitioning important players back onto the field. If the DH slot were open he'd be playing. He's available to play. He played yesterday.

April
15 - 0 for 4
16 - 0 for 6 (maybe a good idea to give him some head space.)
17 - sits while Devers DHs
18 - sits while Wong DHs
19 - 1 for 3
20 - 3 for 4
21 - sits while Heineman DHs (LHP starting)
22 - off day
23 - sits while O'Neill DHs (first day back for O'Neill since concussion, wet field) Game: 0-0, PH - HBP.
24 - sits while Devers DHs (first day back for Devers -knee issue- since April 17th)
 

moondog80

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This is getting silly. Yoshida hasn't hit consistently this year and the team is dealing with transitioning important players back onto the field. If the DH slot were open he'd be playing. He's available to play. He played yesterday.

April
15 - 0 for 4
16 - 0 for 6 (maybe a good idea to give him some head space.)
17 - sits while Devers DHs
18 - sits while Wong DHs
19 - 1 for 3
20 - 3 for 4
21 - sits while Heineman DHs (LHP starting)
22 - off day
23 - sits while O'Neill DHs (first day back for O'Neill since concussion, wet field) Game: 0-0, PH - HBP.
24 - sits while Devers DHs (first day back for Devers -knee issue- since April 17th)

What part was silly? I made it clear that I got it for today and yesterday.

Is Tyler Heineman is the bar for how good a righty has to be to DH over Yoshida?

And before you say "it was just one game", I'll point out that it was one game after he had just sat twice in the past four games and knowing that he would be sitting twice again (at least) in the next few games.

And again, I'm OK with Devers (and O'Neill) at DH. If he needs another week to DH, then that's a week where Yoshida doesn't DH. So be it. And maybe Cora is right about his usage. But that's a grim proposition from now through 2027.
 

Rovin Romine

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What part was silly? I made it clear that I got it for today and yesterday.

Is Tyler Heineman is the bar for how good a righty has to be to DH over Yoshida?

And before you say "it was just one game", I'll point out that it was one game after he had just sat twice in the past four games and knowing that he would be sitting twice again (at least) in the next few games.

And again, I'm OK with Devers (and O'Neill) at DH. If he needs another week to DH, then that's a week where Yoshida doesn't DH. So be it. And maybe Cora is right about his usage. But that's a grim proposition from now through 2027.
It was just one game. (Couldn't resist.) But seriously, they had a switch hitting call-up, and this is Alex Cora. Also, there's no guarantee that on Sunday they knew for certain O'Neill and Devers were coming back, or that the field would be wet yesterday and frozen today.
 

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Yoshida sitting on Sunday is likely simply a result of Martin Perez having pretty big splits; he’s much tougher on lefties than righties. So get the RH bat in there and give Yoshida a day off. Yes he had been doing well in the games right before that, but was unlikely to do so well against Perez. So I can see the logic there.
 

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Yoshida is not an MLB outfielder. Breslow needs to trade Yoshida. Devers is a DH. Why isn't Yoshida in the lineup? Seriously, we're better than this aren't we?
You all are acting like Yoshida is the worst outfielder since Greg Luzinski of the Phillies. Yoshida can't be that bad can he?
 

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If Cora says Yoshida isn't injured then I guess we have to believe him. Yoshida did get hit by a pitch last night and was immediately pinch run for but I guess that probably had nothing to do with an injury and more to do with the game situation.
Could Yoshida get in Cora's doghouse ala Alex Verdugo? We have heard nothing about a bad attitude from Yoshida but to keep him on the pine with the bats struggling does seem curious.
Please consider tonight's line up construction. Raffy is DHing for obvious reasons. Which outfielder do you want to sit?
 

richgedman'sghost

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Please consider tonight's line up construction. Raffy is DHing for obvious reasons. Which outfielder do you want to sit?
Well Duran has been struggling the past few days and could use a day off. Even before tonight his bat speed looked slower.
 

moondog80

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So, we all understand that if Devers isn't ready for 3B, he has to DH and let the chips fall where they may. But twice now Refsnyder (a nice fielder but no Dwight Evans) has gotten the nod against a RHP. If we are at the place with him where he can't play the OF outside of an emergency and can't even DH against a lefty, he's veering closely to not being worth a roster spot. He'd better hit when he gets in there.
 

Stan Papi Was Framed

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So, we all understand that if Devers isn't ready for 3B, he has to DH and let the chips fall where they may. But twice now Refsnyder (a nice fielder but no Dwight Evans) has gotten the nod against a RHP. If we are at the place with him where he can't play the OF outside of an emergency and can't even DH against a lefty, he's veering closely to not being worth a roster spot. He'd better hit.
agreed-but how's he supposed to hit when he never plays? he finally showed some signs of life but then sat for several games. I can understand why Yoshida has been out, especially when Devers has to DH but it's frustrating as I was hoping Yoshida was finally (perhaps) going to get going. I guess we'll see once Devers is able to return to the field.
 

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So, we all understand that if Devers isn't ready for 3B, he has to DH and let the chips fall where they may. But twice now Refsnyder (a nice fielder but no Dwight Evans) has gotten the nod against a RHP. If we are at the place with him where he can't play the OF outside of an emergency and can't even DH against a lefty, he's veering closely to not being worth a roster spot. He'd better hit when he gets in there.
We are seriously just 25 games into the season with some pretty extreme situations that are forcing some unconventional decisions. Oh and the team is currently sporting a record that is better than the majority of us felt possible at this point under the best of circumstances.