US Open at Chambers Bay

Papelbon's Poutine · Jun 13, 2015

Freddy Linn said:
My bad, I meant that I think Phil is going to complain about missing four-footers because of poa. Because he will. I don't see him putting well enough to win. Also, I think you want to hit a gentle left-to-right shot there and that isn't a gentle direction for him.

I'm on Spieth or Rose.

Gotcha. Without seeing it in person I wouldn't know that for a lefty a slight draw would be better and I didn't really note that looking through the interactive maps. So yes I could see that being an issue for him. You're certainly right that's not his best shot. I will be rooting for him though.

Freddy Linn · Jun 13, 2015

Papelbon's Poutine said:
Gotcha. Without seeing it in person I wouldn't know that for a lefty a slight draw would be better and I didn't really note that looking through the interactive maps. So yes I could see that being an issue for him. You're certainly right that's not his best shot. I will be rooting for him though.

I don't think there is any conventional wisdom, but shot shape-wise it has felt to me like a gentle cut for a right-hander is an optimal shot shape. A number of tee balls dictate a left-to-right, and even the most gentle of draws from Phil will be hot for those fairways, turning toward meaningful trouble with topspin.

Conigliaro's Potential · Jun 14, 2015

It's still early, of course, but the current weather forecast for Chambers Bay would suggest the wind isn't going to blow stronger than 10 mph all week. If that's the case, then I think the scores will be significantly lower than people here have been predicting.

Mickelson closed with a 65 today in Memphis, by the way...that's a pretty good sign for him ahead of next week, if you're into that sort of thing.

Average Reds · Jun 14, 2015

Papelbon's Poutine said:
What do we think cut line and winning score are going to be?

I'm putting cut line at 13 over and winner at 5 over. I'm in the mindset this is going to be a shit show, but I'd be curious to see what other people think scores are going to come in at.

Why is that a shit show? And why are you so angry about something that has not yet happened?

Honestly, a course where the pros have to struggle is fine by me.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jun 14, 2015

Average Reds said:
Why is that a shit show? And why are you so angry about something that has not yet happened?

Honestly, a course where the pros have to struggle is fine by me.

I have no problem watching the pros struggle. The US Open should be tough - Merion was great. I just think it should be because it's long, the greens are fast, the rough is deep and the pin placements are tough on Sunday. Not because of all of that plus the course is gimmicky, isn't grown in and doesn't have the facilities to handle it.

Yeah, I have trouble with the fact that things the average golfer probably wouldn't tolerate at the local public course, like a tee box where the ball is above or below his feet, have been seemingly designed just to garner attention for a Major. That clubhouse is smaller than most of the local courses I play and it's not like I live in a hotbed of premium golf courses, but if they had 8 years they couldn't build even a decent sized one? We have members here that have played it and told us up to three years ago they had to spray paint the greens because they were dirt. That just doesn't strike me as "US Open venue".

I dunno, maybe I'm just being a curmudgeon about it. But I think it's kind of messed up when the executive director of the USGA is giving quotes that if a player hasn't played it before, they have no chance to win and seemingly boasting about it. I think it's messed up that they basically awarded it to a course that wasn't even built yet and then they had to come in and tone down the effort to make it as crazy as possible. I think it's messed up that they will be in a tent because there's no clubhouse and even if they're not out on the course, they probably have to use a port-o-let to take a piss. Or that they will be moving around tee boxes so much that holes will go from 200+ yards uphill 100 feet to 200+ yards downhill 80 feet. It kind of makes me wonder if one of the greens has a windmill on it.

I just tend to think the US Open should be held at iconic courses that represent the history of golf in this country, the style of it and the courses that represent that. That's certainly not an opinion that I expect everyone to have and I don't believe I've argued with anyone that they should. There's just plenty of places that haven't held a major in over a decade, or ever, that they could have gone with. And I'd rather see them do like they did with Merion and honor a classic course. Go to National Golf Links or Pine Valley. Go to Chicago GC or Riviera. Baltusrol, Inverness, Crooked Stick, Sebonack if you want something newer.

It just seems like they used pretty poor judgement because they wanted it in the PacNW (and I know I've already said it, but they could have gone back to Sahalee) and committed way far out to a course that hadn't even been built yet. It has a whiff of FIFA to me. I'm not angry - it's not like I'm losing sleep and brooding over it, I'm just disappointed and it seems like other people agree. Not just here, most of my golfing friends hold the same opinion. But again, I don't expect everyone to. Different strokes and all.

The players will bitch and people will chalk it up to the players always bitching, I just think this time they will have a legit gripe. They all have to play the same course and obviously you will probably have a handful of guys battling it out so it will be decent TV, I just think it's not set up to be a great Open. I may very well be proven wrong.

Leon Trotsky · Jun 14, 2015

Seriously who possibly cares about there not being some ridiculous clubhouse? The place was an enormous scar of the landscape that has been restored as a municipal golf course that anyone can enjoy. I think that is pretty cool and certainly worthy of being shown off.

BTW, Merion is 5,989 yds. From what I see, every US Open is gimicky in some way and one of the great things about golf - every course is different and has something new to offer.

Freddy Linn · Jun 14, 2015

Missed a thousand yards on Merion.

Leon Trotsky · Jun 14, 2015

Bah I glanced at wikipedia and picked the West course. Still short for a US Open and I guess I was thinking about the small land area, rather than the length. Fine, the wicker baskets were the gimmick.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jun 14, 2015

It's not really a gimmick when they've been around for 130 years.

johnmd20 · Jun 14, 2015

Papelbon's Poutine said:
It's not really a gimmick when they've been around for 130 years.

And they are awful.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jun 14, 2015

johnmd20 said:
And they are awful.

Like I said, not everyone has to agree on it. I, personally, would prefer "awful" to be a wicker basket - if you somehow consider the pin to be that impactful to the game, I know people do love flags - that has some tradition, story and history with very little impact on the game as opposed to twelve foot deep fairway bunkers and 25 foot shelves on greens. It's all good man, it's not the end of the world. To each their own. I find pimento sandwiches awful, but that doesn't really impact my enjoyment of the Masters.

Freddy Linn · Jun 15, 2015

Papelbon's Poutine said:
as opposed to twelve foot deep fairway bunkers and 25 foot shelves on greens...

You are basically describing St. Andrews and Augusta National.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jun 15, 2015

What hole at Augusta has either of those? I've honestly never been there and I know it's tough on TV, but 25'? Really?

Jercra has already stated that this course has greens that if you even crest the top of that shelf, there's no way to keep it on the green, as well as ones you will have to put off the green to have a line at the hole if the pin position is in a certain spot, which we Davis will do.

St. Andrews certainly has its pot bunkers, but I'm not aware of any that look like this

that are in the middle of a fairway on a par 5.

Again, knock yourselves out on this if this gets you psyched. As stated, it's an annoyance for me that I don't expect everyone to share. If the pet peeve thread was still open i guess I could go there.

SumnerH · Jun 15, 2015

Freddy Linn said:
You are basically describing St. Andrews and Augusta National.

As a non golf fan, those are two of the courses (especially St Andrews) most likely to get me to watch a few holes on Sunday. There are non course draws as well; someone going for a Slam, or whatever, but the British Open at St Andrews will always draw me in, and the Masters sometimes as well.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jun 15, 2015

SumnerH said:
As a non golf fan, those are two of the courses (especially St Andrews) most likely to get me to watch a few holes on Sunday. There are non course draws as well; someone going for a Slam, or whatever, but the British Open at St Andrews will always draw me in, and the Masters sometimes as well.

Thank you. If the theatrics were that extreme, which I don't believe they are on those courses, at least they have some history to them. They are two of the greatest courses in the world. This doesn't even crack top 100 in the U.S.

Freddy Linn · Jun 15, 2015

Papelbon's Poutine said:
What hole at Augusta has either of those? I've honestly never been there and I know it's tough on TV, but 25'? Really?

Jercra has already stated that this course has greens that if you even crest the top of that shelf, there's no way to keep it on the green, as well as ones you will have to put off the green to have a line at the hole if the pin position is in a certain spot, which we Davis will do.

St. Andrews certainly has its pot bunkers, but I'm not aware of any that look like this

that are in the middle of a fairway on a par 5.

Again, knock yourselves out on this if this gets you psyched. As stated, it's an annoyance for me that I don't expect everyone to share. If the pet peeve thread was still open i guess I could go there.

That bunker is something like 95 yards to the front of the 18th green. It is integral to the hole because without it the hole would be amazingly easy as a par 5. Doesn't come into play as a par 4. These guys will be hitting lob wedges out of it if they make the monster mistake of hiring into it. St. Andrews has fairway bunkers you hit sideways and backwards out of.

I don't know where this 25' figure comes from but Augusta certainly has some incredibly massive undulations. 5, 6, 7, 9, 15 in the back, 16 up top, 18...it isn't a whole hell of a lot different than Chambers in that respect.

Average Reds · Jun 15, 2015

Papelbon said:
Thank you. If the theatrics were that extreme, which I don't believe they are on those courses, at least they have some history to them. They are two of the greatest courses in the world. This doesn't even crack top 100 in the U.S.

I think you might have misunderstood his comment, because I did not perceive that he was supporting your point.

There's no question to me that the theatrics at those two courses are that extreme. You've just become used to them through repeated viewings.

Look at the Road Hole at St. Andrews. You have to hit your drive over part of a hotel from the tee. Then you hit to a narrow slit of a green protected in front of the left side by an enormous sod bunker that forces you to play sideways or backwards half of the time and in back by an actual highway that comes to within feet of the green. That's just one hole.

Augusta National has many holes where, if you place the ball in the wrong part of the green, you have to putt sideways or even backwards. On hole 9, if you hit the false front, your ball comes back 50 or 60 yards and you have to try again, (I've seen pros hit that shot two and three times when the pin is up.) There are huge sections of the greens on some holes where you simply cannot place a pin because it is impossible to stop a ball near the cup. So massive greens like number 5, 6 and 14 always seem like the pin is in a familiar place because ... well, because it is. Even 16 only offers the illusion of variety for pin positions, since the only place you can put it is on the shelf to the right or to hug the left side of the green front to back.

If you find a huge bunker in the middle of a fairway to be such a violation of the sanctity of the game, don't play any of the top courses in Ireland or Scotland, because that feature is pretty routine. Here's a picture of a bunker right in the middle of the fairway at Lahinch:

I'm not saying Chambers Bay is a fabulous course and the tournament may well be the train wreck you are predicting. But the examples of why you have pre-judged it so harshly simply don't make sense to me.

cshea · Jun 15, 2015

Monday odds on Bovada

McIroy- 7/1
Spieth- 8/1
DJ- 16/1
Mickelson/Fowler/Rose- 18/1
Stenson- 25/1
Scott/Watson- 28/1

Edit: Tiger is 50/1

johnmd20 · Jun 15, 2015

Golfers whining about a course makes no sense to me. Everyone has to play all the same holes, from the same spot, to the same pins. Jack was right when he said he loved to hear guys complain because he knew he wouldn't have to beat him in the tourney.

Suit up and show up. Whining gets you nothing.

cshea · Jun 15, 2015

Merion may not have been long, and didn't have deep pot bunkers in the middle, but the course wasn't without issue. They had an uphill, into the wind, 266 yard par 3 on Sunday. That's a hole that required luck to par. 18 was also absurd. If memory serves, there wasn't a single birdie on the hole all weekend. Rose hit as good a shot as possible (and it's why he won) on 18 and it didn't hold the green and ran 20-30 feet past the hole.

There are going to be issues with every US Open set up since the USGA tries to protect even par. I enjoy watching the Open because it's a challenge and not a race to -20, but I wish they would back off the tinkering (side hill lies!?!) and just let the guys play the courses as they're normally set up. The courses are already hard enough. They were scared Merion was going to be a birdie fest since it was short, but +1 was the winning score. They didn't need to do much to the course to make it a tough challenge. Birdies and under par scores aren't a bad thing.

Freddy Linn · Jun 15, 2015

Nice hole-by-hole description from Golfweek

FL4WL3SS · Jun 15, 2015

I don't understand why folks get so caught up in 'par' when watching golf. I mean, golf went 100s of years without the concept of par before it was widely implemented for professional golf in the early 1900s. The fact that the 18th at Merion didn't have a Birdie all weekend was really irrelevant to me; professional golf is the relation between one golfer and the field and par is just a nice tidy package to make viewing the game easier. I mean, if the USGA had made the 18th a par 5, would it have changed anything about the tournament?

The real number that matters is the total strokes taken at the end of the tournament.

Papelbon's Poutine · Jun 15, 2015

Average Reds said:
Snip*

I'm not saying Chambers Bay is a fabulous course and the tournament may well be the train wreck you are predicting. But the examples of why you have pre-judged it so harshly simply don't make sense to me.

I'm aware that pot bunkers exist and are certainly a large part of golf in the UK. And there's certainly plenty of courses there and in the US that have quirks, but they generally have some history behind them. I enjoy that part. I'm not as interested in a course that has little acclaim, that was seemingly built towards the goal to incorporate as many as possible in order to bring attention to Mike Davis. And then make it the longest ever on top.

Again, as I said, there will be a pocket of guys that will compete and at the end of the day that's what's important because that's all that really matters. I have not once argued or told anyone they need to share my opinion. I do think the U.S. Open should, in part, honor the history and style of golf in this country and this course does not. I think it should be awarded based on merit, which this obviously wasn't. I think the patrons that pay a lot of money should have some facilities, which they don't.

Nobody needs to agree with any of that. It's not like I'm saying I will boycott and not watch. It's a major so at the end of the day, all good. I just think they could have done better in a lot of ways. Is that ok?

WayBackVazquez · Jun 15, 2015

I didn't see this when it came through, but you guys were right, cell phones will be allowed for the first time this year. I didn't think it would happen this soon.

johnmd20 · Jun 16, 2015

Couldn't fight the cell phone tide. If people keep their phones on vibrate, it shouldn't be a problem. Taking photos is still not allowed, although I'm betting a few people will somehow try to skirt that rule.

Freddy Linn · Jun 16, 2015

Chambers in 3D

BigMike · Jun 16, 2015

Tigers commentary today, and this is not what you want to hear about a golf course..

"You are going to get some funky bounces.. you are going to see guys hit terrible golf shots and end up in kick in range of holes, and guys fires at flags hit a really good one get a bad bounce and end up in a horrible spot."

Ultimately golf should reward good shots, and penalize bad ones. Now sometimes a good shot might be creative and take imagination, such as running something up onto the green instead of a firing at the flagstick, but it shouldn't feel completely random

The Napkin · Jun 16, 2015

https://twitter.com/LeeMcCoyGolf/status/610934844152016898

Freddy Linn · Jun 16, 2015

It's like these guys have never seen a links course before.

WayBackVazquez · Jun 17, 2015

I really like Frank Nobilo as an analyst. He seems almost as smart as Brandel Chamblee considers himself to be.

johnmd20 · Jun 17, 2015

WayBackVazquez said:
I really like Frank Nobilo as an analyst. He seems almost as smart as Brandel Chamblee considers himself to be.

Somewhere, Brandel Chamblee is ranting and raving about Tiger Woods at this very moment.

Zomp · Jun 17, 2015

Chamblee blocked me on twitter after i told him to man up for complaining about VIP passes at Universal Studios.

johnmd20 · Jun 17, 2015

Zomp said:
Chamblee blocked me on twitter after i told him to man up for complaining about VIP passes at Universal Studios.

He blocked me after I Tweeted him that he's totally irrational about Tiger Woods. It wasn't even rude. Just a fact. He can dish it, but he don't take it.

Also, I know this is old news, but everytime I read Mickelson has finished 2nd in the US Open 6 times, I am more and more amazed. That is an incredible stat. Always the bridesmaid. . . .

cshea · Jun 17, 2015

Freddy Linn said:
It's like these guys have never seen a links course before.

I can't wait for the first person to complain about the brown grass in places....

Anywho, tee times:

http://www.usopen.com/mobile/en_US/scores/pairings.html

Phil is off early with Bubba and Angel Cabrera. Rory draws Kaymer and Gunn Yang (US Am winner). Bradley and Na are together, so we should already put them on the clock. Spieth is late with Day and Rose, and finally Tiger goes off late tomorrow with Fowler and Oosty.

Zomp · Jun 17, 2015

Has anyone played a links course before with fairways this hard? Are we going to see some 400 yd drives?

Average Reds · Jun 17, 2015

Zomp said:
Has anyone played a links course before with fairways this hard? Are we going to see some 400 yd drives?

Yes and probably. (Assuming that there is 400 yards of running room on any hole.)

cshea · Jun 17, 2015

Zomp said:
Has anyone played a links course before with fairways this hard? Are we going to see some 400 yd drives?

I was just reading an article that theorized we could see 25 or more 400 yard drives.

http://www.foxsports.com/golf/usga/story/u-s-open-chambers-bay-18-things-you-can-count-on-061615

Also included in that article is tha Fox is putting camera's on drones and remote controlled cars for the broadcast. I'm sure the players will love having drones zipping around all day.

Comfortably Lomb · Jun 17, 2015

Because it's really impressive when a drive is 400+ yards because it got an extra 100 yards of roll due to conditions. Greens committee at my old club loved to shave the fairways and burn them out in the summer. I always assumed it was so they could pretend they were long.

Zomp · Jun 17, 2015

Watching the preview on FS1. Seems like Fox is really going high tech for this thing. Mic's on flags, cameras on drones and rc cars, rolling cameras on the 18th green.

I have no idea how the players will react but its gotta be noticeable no?

Hello Holly Sonders. I've missed you.

FL4WL3SS · Jun 17, 2015

I can't decide if the hard and fast conditions will mean Rory will run away with this thing or if it means that guys like Furyk have a better chance.

The hard conditions may favor 2 old guys: Janzen and Monty.

I'm going to play the Draft Kings $2.5M challenge, but I have no idea what style of golfer to pick right now.

WayBackVazquez · Jun 17, 2015

I threw $10 on each of my fantasy guys at between 40 and 65-1, and a little more than that on DJ at 20-1.

johnmd20 · Jun 17, 2015

Zomp said:
Watching the preview on FS1. Seems like Fox is really going high tech for this thing. Mic's on flags, cameras on drones and rc cars, rolling cameras on the 18th green.

I have no idea how the players will react but its gotta be noticeable no?

Hello Holly Sonders. I've missed you.

Agreed, it will be noticeable, but I assume not too obtrusive. I am sure Fox doesn't want to alienate the golfers on their first huge broadcast. Or maybe they don't care. Either way, I'm very interested in seeing how this will look on TV.

And agreed, very much so, about Sonders.

bostonbeerbelly · Jun 17, 2015

WayBackVazquez said:
I threw $10 on each of my fantasy guys at between 40 and 65-1, and a little more than that on DJ at 20-1.

Where are you able to place bets? Would love to do the same on Charlie Hoffman and Jimmy Walker this week.

FL4WL3SS · Jun 17, 2015

WayBackVazquez said:
I threw $10 on each of my fantasy guys at between 40 and 65-1, and a little more than that on DJ at 20-1.

I'm not sure about DJ. Putting will be at a premium and he can be shaky with the flat stick.

I'm actually really confused about who to pick. It's tempting to pick guys like DJ, Rory and Day because they'll have wedges into some of the par 5s while other guys will need to lay back and won't be able to spin the ball on the greens.

bostonbeerbelly · Jun 17, 2015

FL4WL3SS said:
I'm not sure about DJ. Putting will be at a premium and he can be shaky with the flat stick.

I'm actually really confused about who to pick. It's tempting to pick guys like DJ, Rory and Day because they'll have wedges into some of the par 5s while other guys will need to lay back and won't be able to spin the ball on the greens.

I was wondering if looking at past results of the Open and US Open champions and trying to find a list of guys who won or were top 5/10 when the winning score was E or worse. I expect par to be a very good score, so looking at guys who find a way to make pars on hard courses, compared to guys who win tournaments -10+.

Came up with a list of winners that fit that criteria from the past 8 years of Justin Rose, Webb Simpson, Graeme McDowell, Angel Caberera, Phil Mickelson, and Padraig Harrington.

None of whom I would wager on to win, so this is probably the wrong approach.

johnmd20 · Jun 17, 2015

Justin Rose isn't a bad bet. Dude is playing some golf.

US Open at Chambers Bay

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