The Rebuild

astrozombie · Oct 9, 2023

rmurph3 said:
I'm just a casual fan, but isn't the bolded an anachronism from a bygone era? First-round QBs just don't hold the clipboard anymore, at least not when there's an immediate need at the position for the franchise (ie Jordan Love behind Rodgers isn't really analogous to the Pats situation). The Steelers tried this with Kenny Pickett last year and it lasted what, a month? You throw them in and let them figure it out on the fly. Admittedly, you wouldn't necessarily want to do that behind THIS offensive line, so that's got to be a priority. But as noted, there are at least reesources available to address that.

Jordan Love sat after drafted (and so did Rodgers). Josh Allen started Week 3 of his rookie season only after the immortal Nathan Peterson proved (again) to be horrible. Hurts sat most of his rookie year. Mahomes sat his rookie year except 1 game. Tua sat for 6 games behind Fitzpatrick. Lamar Jackson started behind Joe Flacco until Flacco got injured. Herbert started his rookie season behind Tyrod Taylor, then Taylor got a punctured lung forcing Herbert into action. Dak Prescott started his rookie year after Romo suffered an injury. Purdy sat until pressed into service. My point being that a good number of currently successful QBs were not pressed into service from Day 1, or if they started early in their rookie years it was more out of necessity than design. Sure, there are the occasional Joe Burrows/Trevor Lawrence's that start day 1 of their pro career, but there are also your Justin Fields/Mac Jones/Zach Wilsons/Sam Darnolds who get thrown into the fire with little support and it crushes them.

rodderick · Oct 9, 2023

astrozombie said:
Jordan Love sat after drafted (and so did Rodgers). Josh Allen started Week 3 of his rookie season only after the immortal Nathan Peterson proved (again) to be horrible. Hurts sat most of his rookie year. Mahomes sat his rookie year except 1 game. Tua sat for 6 games behind Fitzpatrick. Lamar Jackson started behind Joe Flacco until Flacco got injured. Herbert started his rookie season behind Tyrod Taylor, then Taylor got a punctured lung forcing Herbert into action. Dak Prescott started his rookie year after Romo suffered an injury. Purdy sat until pressed into service. My point being that a good number of currently successful QBs were not pressed into service from Day 1, or if they started early in their rookie years it was more out of necessity than design. Sure, there are the occasional Joe Burrows/Trevor Lawrence's that start day 1 of their pro career, but there are also your Justin Fields/Mac Jones/Zach Wilsons/Sam Darnolds who get thrown into the fire with little support and it crushes them.

There's no set formula for drafting and developing QBs and anyone who says there is one is just making stuff up. There are success stories and busts stemming from every imaginable strategy.

astrozombie · Oct 9, 2023

rodderick said:
There's no set formula for drafting and developing QBs and anyone who says there is one is just making stuff up. There are success stories and busts stemming from every imaginable strategy.

True, but my point was 1) there are plenty of QBs who sit and then end up with success, it's not just keeping a backup seat warm and 2) to that end, I have no problem with that as a strategy. I don't see a need to go get *that* QB this year. To your point, everything is a crapshoot - I doubt people thought in '98 that Leaf was going to be a spectacular failure.

PRabbit · Oct 9, 2023

There's like, 7 players young and talented enough that I can envision contributing to a winning team after a rebuild currently on the roster. This roster needs an infusion everywhere. If Williams, Drake, or Harrison Jr. aren't there when the pick is up, trade down and get as many kids with round 1 or 2 grades as you can. If the value isn't there this draft, trade in 2025.

rodderick · Oct 9, 2023

astrozombie said:
True, but my point was 1) there are plenty of QBs who sit and then end up with success, it's not just keeping a backup seat warm and 2) to that end, I have no problem with that as a strategy. I don't see a need to go get *that* QB this year. To your point, everything is a crapshoot - I doubt people thought in '98 that Leaf was going to be a spectacular failure.

I don't have a problem with that strategy either, I just don't think it's something you go into the draft intending to do with no guy in place. Sure, if you draft a young guy, sign a veteran and then by Week 1 the kid isn't ready at all, you play the veteran, I just wouldn't have my mind made up on it. It's not like you're drafting Lamar Jackson in 2018 to sit for Brady or Love in Green Bay.

astrozombie · Oct 9, 2023

rodderick said:
I don't have a problem with that strategy either, I just don't think it's something you go into the draft intending to do with no guy in place. Sure, if you draft a young guy, sign a veteran and then by Week 1 the kid isn't ready at all, you play the veteran, I just wouldn't have my mind made up on it. It's not like you're drafting Lamar Jackson in 2018 to sit for Brady or Love in Green Bay.

Agree to disagree then. Though admittedly not a guaranteed strategy, I would prefer that the rookie QB spend some time behind *a* veteran so that (particularly relevant in the case of the Pats) if the rest of the team sucks you don't go out there and shatter that rookie's confidence/body (I believe we are calling it David Carr'ing a QB, but I could be wrong).

rodderick · Oct 9, 2023

astrozombie said:
Agree to disagree then. Though admittedly not a guaranteed strategy, I would prefer that the rookie QB spend some time behind *a* veteran so that (particularly relevant in the case of the Pats) if the rest of the team sucks you don't go out there and shatter that rookie's confidence/body (I believe we are calling it David Carr'ing a QB, but I could be wrong).

If the guy is better than the veteran or as good in practice you play him. It's not that hard. Why sit a kid who's good enough to start? If he isn't, I agree, don't force it, but I'll never get this rationale of sitting the quarterback as a plan you make beforehand. Should they have played Cam Newton in 2021? I don't think so.

astrozombie · Oct 9, 2023

rodderick said:
If the guy is better than the veteran or as good in practice you play him. It's not that hard. Why sit a kid who's good enough to start? If he isn't, I agree, don't force it, but I'll never get this rationale of sitting the quarterback as a plan you make beforehand. Should they have played Cam Newton in 2021? I don't think so.

Once again, agree to disagree here. You could be doing long term damage to a prospect by putting them in a crummy situation, even if they are immediately the better player than their backup.

sezwho · Oct 9, 2023

astrozombie said:
Once again, agree to disagree here. You could be doing long term damage to a prospect by putting them in a crummy situation, even if they are immediately the better player than their backup.

This one’s in the details for me. If the young player is capable of executing the offense then I’d prefer to play them, but here I need to parse ‘crummy’.

If crummy means a horrible oline, and especially if my quarterback is all arm no leg, then I’m sitting him for sure if I can.

I believe the pats sent three quarterbacks in a row for X-rays last year, for example, and its now worse. You can indeed ruin a qb and running for your life isn’t the first skill I want my stud qb to learn

rmurph3 · Oct 9, 2023

astrozombie said:
Jordan Love sat after drafted (and so did Rodgers). Josh Allen started Week 3 of his rookie season only after the immortal Nathan Peterson proved (again) to be horrible. Hurts sat most of his rookie year. Mahomes sat his rookie year except 1 game. Tua sat for 6 games behind Fitzpatrick. Lamar Jackson started behind Joe Flacco until Flacco got injured. Herbert started his rookie season behind Tyrod Taylor, then Taylor got a punctured lung forcing Herbert into action. Dak Prescott started his rookie year after Romo suffered an injury. Purdy sat until pressed into service. My point being that a good number of currently successful QBs were not pressed into service from Day 1, or if they started early in their rookie years it was more out of necessity than design. Sure, there are the occasional Joe Burrows/Trevor Lawrence's that start day 1 of their pro career, but there are also your Justin Fields/Mac Jones/Zach Wilsons/Sam Darnolds who get thrown into the fire with little support and it crushes them.

I specifically mentioned Love as an exception in the post you quoted, and then he's your first example... which suggests you didn't read my post even though you quoted it. Your post, that I was responding to and even bolded the part I was objecting to, said "hold a clipboard for a year" (my emphasis), and then you've cited a whole list of examples of guys who... didn't really do that. You've now moved the goalposts to "not pressed into service from Day 1", which is a very different yardstick. (Yes, some of the above were "more necessity than design", but the very nature of the NFL suggests those cases are a combination of "this is the plan until its not the plan anymore" and "we'll say this is the plan to keep the heat off the kid until we decide it's time to make a change".)

astrozombie · Oct 9, 2023

rmurph3 said:
I specifically mentioned Love as an exception in the post you quoted, and then he's your first example... which suggests you didn't read my post even though you quoted it. Your post, that I was responding to and even bolded the part I was objecting to, said "hold a clipboard for a year" (my emphasis), and then you've cited a whole list of examples of guys who... didn't really do that. You've now moved the goalposts to "not pressed into service from Day 1", which is a very different yardstick. (Yes, some of the above were "more necessity than design", but the very nature of the NFL suggests those cases are a combination of "this is the plan until its not the plan anymore" and "we'll say this is the plan to keep the heat off the kid until we decide it's time to make a change".)

I mean, the idea was those guys were intended to sit behind the incumbent and in some cases they did for nearly your arbitrary year (Hurts, Mahomes though both fell a couple games short) and in some cases they did not. You mention you thought it was an anachronism (despite naming one guy who literally just did that in Love). What is your point? If your roundabout point is that no one holds a clipboard for a year any more, I would argue that in a lot of cases that might be chalked up to a GM trying to save his job by hoping the rookie exceeds expectations and performs at a high level from day one, rather than what is good for the player or the team. Clearly people on this board disagree with that and seem to prefer the "throw the rookies to the wolves and let them sort it out" methodology that has worked well for such powerhouse dynasties as the Jets and the Browns.

slamminsammya · Oct 9, 2023

Obviously if a great looking QB is available in the draft you take him, but I do think you need to figure out the OL as the top priority.

sezwho · Oct 9, 2023

slamminsammya said:
Obviously if a great looking QB is available in the draft you take him, but I do think you need to figure out the OL as the top priority.

Absolutely, otherwise Bill (or whoever) just sends another QB to the meat grinder.

There has to be a couple guards on the roster, right? Please? So now just pay for two tackles (or pay one draft one) and hope Andrews not done.

Marciano490 · Oct 9, 2023

slamminsammya said:
Obviously if a great looking QB is available in the draft you take him, but I do think you need to figure out the OL as the top priority.

Thank you! Finally someone recognizes the handsome factor in our QBs during the dynasty.

slamminsammya · Oct 9, 2023

Marciano490 said:
Thank you! Finally someone recognizes the handsome factor in our QBs during the dynasty.

Mac Jones is too babyface. We need more of a menacingly handsome, Tommy Wiseau type look.

8slim · Oct 9, 2023

DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
If you watch any NFL objectively, it is correct. I don't know that their OL or each of the skill players or even Mac would look as bad if they were surrounded by talent at the other positions but its pretty clear that the Patriots have a skill deficit in just about every area on offense. Its beyond obvious that you cannot sustainably win in the NFL with that sort of profile.

Setting aside whether they are capable or interested, I have to believe that BB & staff know this as well even if they bought their own groceries. They can't really add talent in-season so one of the things I am watching is how they "fix" things going forward so the team isn't getting drilled every week for the rest of the season. That may go a ways towards signaling what the plan is. To me the OL is job one.

The bolded is a very good point. I've been someone who's continued to claim that Bill is a great coach, and someone who can squeeze more wins from the talent on-hand than anyone. But it's quite fair for people to push back on that notion at this point.

Yesterday should have been one of those matchups where the brilliance of Bill should have enabled him to coach his way to a win. The Saints are nothing special. And yet, obviously, we saw the precise opposite of that. That is incredibly alarming.

If we utterly collapse this season, end up with 2 or 3 wins, then I'd totally concede that Bill ain't the greatest anymore. And like you said, that would completely change the calculus of what we do for the future.

8slim · Oct 9, 2023

slamminsammya said:
Mac Jones is too babyface. We need more of a menacingly handsome, Tommy Wiseau type look.

Oh hi, Mark.

Rico Guapo · Oct 9, 2023

slamminsammya said:
Obviously if a great looking QB is available in the draft you take him, but I do think you need to figure out the OL as the top priority.

This is where I wind up too, the OL is a four alarm dumpster fire, it's hard to evaluate the rest of the roster on offense when the run blocking and pass blocking are this bad.

slamminsammya · Oct 9, 2023

BaseballJones said:
He doesn’t have to be the greatest in the NFL right now for the right move to be to keep him. All that needs to be the case is that he’s better than the other options *that are available to the Patriots*.

Bill is a known quantity at this point. a new coach is a gamble. you go for the gamble given where this team is right now if you think there's higher upside for a new coach, even if the most likely case is they are worse than Bb.

8slim · Oct 9, 2023

BaseballJones said:
He doesn’t have to be the greatest in the NFL right now for the right move to be to keep him. All that needs to be the case is that he’s better than the other options *that are available to the Patriots*.

Well, that’s not knowable. It’s all going to be an educated guess, like any other coaching change.

j-man · Oct 9, 2023

u are denver east the only diff between u and denver are

1 u dont have a 250 mill qb on your roster
2 u are not in cap hell utill 26
3 u have a 2nd round pick

on to u guys
u have to keep jones utill at least the end of the 2024 season because next year his cap is 2.7 mil

i wouild move on to mayo after this season here why because with bill he will act like elway and think he is 1 guy away from a 10 win team which sits up a endless 6 year rebuild and counting

u have talent esp on def at S MLB

the thing bill and mrkraft have to adjust to is any QB that is a NFL starter after 4 years will demand at least a 40 mil a year contact thanks to daniel jones

also due to all the rule changes over the years building a eitie def is no longer the best way to go u have to build a kc mia type of off and a fast def that can get turnovers

JimD · Oct 10, 2023

BaseballJones said:
He doesn’t have to be the greatest in the NFL right now for the right move to be to keep him. All that needs to be the case is that he’s better than the other options *that are available to the Patriots*.

The problem is, the only likely option to keep Belichick the coach is to put up with Belichick the mediocre (at best) GM. To properly leverage BB's coaching skills, he needs to have a truly competitive roster at his disposal. I have zero faith in BB the GM to bring in the personnel to achieve this, and I don't see Bill staying on if Krafts strips away his complete control over every aspect of the football operation - if that is the choice, I believe the Krafts need to move on.

rodderick · Oct 10, 2023

This might sound like sacrilege, but are we even sure Bill the coach is still one of best HCs in the league? I haven't been impressed with the gameday decisions in a while, but does this team look particularly prepared? It seems to me that every time they have a talent deficit they lose the game, so if coaching isn't making up for that, what gives? I still think he's an excellent schemer and playcaller on defense, but have they actually looked well coached? I think they've performed up to (or down to) their talent most weeks. Even their special teams have sucked for a while now.

Remagellan · Oct 10, 2023

JimD said:
The problem is, the only likely option to keep Belichick the coach is to put up with Belichick the mediocre (at best) GM. To properly leverage BB's coaching skills, he needs to have a truly competitive roster at his disposal. I have zero faith in BB the GM to bring in the personnel to achieve this, and I don't see Bill staying on if Krafts strips away his complete control over every aspect of the football operation - if that is the choice, I believe the Krafts need to move on.

This is exactly where I am. When it is truly clear the season is lost (and yes, it probably already is, but I would give it at least another four games), Kraft should inform Belichick that they will be bringing in a new player personnel person who will conduct the draft with some input from Bill, but that person will be the one making the roster decisions. If Bill can accept that, fine. If not, start the search for the next head coach, because the status quo is not working.

slamminsammya · Oct 10, 2023

rodderick said:
This might sound like sacrilege, but are we even sure Bill the coach is still one of best HCs in the league? I haven't been impressed with the gameday decisions in a while, but does this team look particularly prepared? It seems to me that every time they have a talent deficit they lose the game, so if coaching isn't making up for that, what gives? I still think he's an excellent schemer and playcaller on defense, but have they actually looked well coached? I think they've performed up to (or down to) their talent most weeks. Even their special teams have sucked for a while now.

I always thought one of his top advantages was his development of other coaches and ability to delegate. We haven't seen that in a while.

rodderick · Oct 10, 2023

BaseballJones said:
Right now they're playing so poorly that I don't know what's the most important thing to fix. Like, I think that the offense always starts with the OL, and the OL has been absolutely horrific this year, both in pass protection and run blocking. Just awful awful in every way. You can't expect ANYONE to do anything constructive when the OL is this bad. So yeah, that's got to be the priority right?

BUT....if they have a top 3 pick and can get Maye, and BB thinks that Maye could be great, you've got to pull the trigger and draft him, right? It's very rare that you get a chance at an elite QB in the draft. Even if it means you don't get the franchise LT you really desperately need.

So many holes to fix.....I just think you can put together a good OL using free agency and trades. Getting a franchise QB really HAS to be done through the draft.

But to me the OL is a coaching issue too. I know the talent level isn't great and they haven't had the continuity they wanted with the injuries, but they were a middle of the pack unit by most metrics last year with 4/5 starters coming back, and even when they had Brown, Strange, Andrews and Onwenu playing together this year they looked like crap. PFF had them 13th in their projected rankings to start the season. What gives?

Harry Hooper · Oct 10, 2023

rodderick said:
But to me the OL is a coaching issue too. I know the talent level isn't great and they haven't had the continuity they wanted with the injuries, but they were a middle of the pack unit by most metrics last year with 4/5 starters coming back, and even when they had Brown, Strange, Andrews and Onwenu playing together this year they looked like crap. PFF had them 13th in their projected rankings to start the season. What gives?

The Trent Brown Experience will always be a rollercoaster. Strange and Onwenu are injured goods this season each playing on one leg with recovery uncertain. Very minimal work as a unit preseason too, so you get a Technicolor yawn as a result.

lexrageorge · Oct 10, 2023

rodderick said:
But to me the OL is a coaching issue too. I know the talent level isn't great and they haven't had the continuity they wanted with the injuries, but they were a middle of the pack unit by most metrics last year with 4/5 starters coming back, and even when they had Brown, Strange, Andrews and Onwenu playing together this year they looked like crap. PFF had them 13th in their projected rankings to start the season. What gives?

The lack of continuity is a big issue, as is the fact that some of the substitutes simply haven't been good. Calvin Anderson was the fault of Bill the GM. Vederian Lowe was an emergency scrap heap pickup. Sow and Mafi are late round draftees that are trying to learn new roles. Reiff has had much of a chance. Strange's knee injury appears to be more serious than the team was letting on and hasn't played that much anyway. Onwenu seems unable to shake off the ankle injury that caused him to offseason surgery (not a good sign). David Andrews and Trent Brown are both a year older, and OL's are subject to falling off a cliff when it comes to aging curves.

Coaching can only do so much when there is a glaring talent issue.

Commander Shears · Oct 10, 2023

rodderick said:
But to me the OL is a coaching issue too. I know the talent level isn't great and they haven't had the continuity they wanted with the injuries, but they were a middle of the pack unit by most metrics last year with 4/5 starters coming back, and even when they had Brown, Strange, Andrews and Onwenu playing together this year they looked like crap. PFF had them 13th in their projected rankings to start the season. What gives?

A big problem has been lack of practice and game time together which Andrews hinted at in his post-game presser (quote below). When asked about getting Reiff back, he said something nice and immediately changed the subject to the need to find some continuity and stop moving people around. When healthy, Brown is fine, Strange is acceptable (he is not a good player though, make no mistake), Andrews seems a little past it but is at least smart, Onwenu can play, and right tackle is going to be bad regardless. With health and continuity, they'll probably grow into being a mediocre unit but constantly rotating one lousy player for another one is just resetting the communication and continuity clock.

“Appreciate Riley’s effort, getting back out there. Just got to find some continuity, moving people around, just got to get a set group and work together and play. But appreciate his effort, his toughness coming back from his injury.”

Cellar-Door · Oct 10, 2023

BaseballJones said:
No idea. I'm no expert in OL play that's for sure. I just see what I see, which is: no holes being opened up for the running game, and the QB under siege half the time on passing plays. And these guys are SUPPOSED to be pretty good: Brown played fantastic for them in 2018 (granted that was five years ago). Strange was pretty solid last year. Andrews is a solid center. Onwenu at times has graded out in the past couple of years as one of the better OL players in the league by PFF. So I have no idea what's happening. I don't imagine Trent Brown is being coached to just let guys go right past him, ya know?

Brown has been pretty decent this year, standard Brown... 20 good plays then takes one off.
As to the rest.. not only is there no continuity, they're all banged up pretty good. Onwenwu is clearly playing hurt (can't finish games often), Strange is in and out with injury.... not sure about Andrews, he may have just hit the cliff. RT is a mess, they don't like Reiff there, McDermott done for the year... not many options.

8slim · Oct 10, 2023

BaseballJones said:
And also there’s this… no coach teaches their players to commit dumb penalties. Especially pre-snap penalties. That stuff is totally on the individual players who by now should absolutely know better. So maybe his planning is fine but the players just aren’t executing. It’s hard for me to tell. I just know that Matthew Slater has told me he still thinks BB is incredible at this. So…?

I think penalties are often more a function of talent than coaching. Sure, being a hard ass and focusing on mistake mitigation can help reduce penalties, likely at the margins. But I strongly suspect the reason why prior Pats editions weren't heavily penalized was because they had strong talent all over the field who, by nature of being very talented, didn't need to commit a lot of penalties.

Like how great basketball centers don't foul nearly as much as barely adequate centers. They don't need to because they have the skill and athleticism to properly defend their opponent without fouling.

The Pats now have guys all over the field who aren't good enough. Stands to reason that they're going to jump offside, or hold, or commit PI, or whatever, because they're not good enough to win their individual matchups cleanly.

*edit* I'm sure Slater thinks that for good reason, but he's also probably a biased observer. I worked for a legend in my field, and if someone asked me about him near the end of his tenure I would have done nothing but rave about how great he was. But at the same time, there were clear areas of deficiency that didn't exist 10 years prior. I loved the guy so I'd never say a bad word about him. But I was heavily biased because of that.

Deathofthebambino · Oct 10, 2023

8slim said:
Like how great basketball centers don't foul nearly as much as barely adequate centers. They don't need to because they have the skill and athleticism to properly defend their opponent without fouling.

Unless they're Daniel Theis, and the refs hate them.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

8slim · Oct 10, 2023

Deathofthebambino said:
Unless they're Daniel Theis, and the refs hate them.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'll allow it, you found the exception that proved my rule.

Man, that dude really did get hosed all the time!

Koufax · Oct 11, 2023

Patriots Wire has a 7-step program for the rebuild. In slightly revised form, here is their tear it down to the studs proposal:

1. Fire BB right now and hire a replacement GM and head coach
2. Trade Mac Jones, Uche, Onwenu, Henry and Bourne for picks; release Schuster
3. Extend Duggar and Brown; re-sign Gesicki
4. Play the youngest players (Douglas, Boutte, Jack Jones, Speed, Mapu and White)
5. Having successfully tanked, draft Caleb Williams

That sounds more purposeful than slogging through a 3-14 season on the Good Ship Belichick

Rico Guapo · Oct 11, 2023

Koufax said:
Patriots Wire has a 7-step program for the rebuild. In slightly revised form, here is their tear it down to the studs proposal:

1. Fire BB right now and hire a replacement GM and head coach
2. Trade Mac Jones, Uche, Onwenu, Henry and Bourne for picks; release Schuster
3. Extend Duggar and Brown; re-sign Gesicki
4. Play the youngest players (Douglas, Boutte, Jack Jones, Speed, Mapu and White)
5. Having successfully tanked, draft Caleb Williams

That sounds more purposeful than slogging through a 3-14 season on the Good Ship Belichick

Brown has quit on the team repeatedly and Gesicki sucks, I don't want either of them on the 2024 Patriots.

astrozombie · Oct 11, 2023

Koufax said:
Patriots Wire has a 7-step program for the rebuild. In slightly revised form, here is their tear it down to the studs proposal:

1. Fire BB right now and hire a replacement GM and head coach
2. Trade Mac Jones, Uche, Onwenu, Henry and Bourne for picks; release Schuster
3. Extend Duggar and Brown; re-sign Gesicki
4. Play the youngest players (Douglas, Boutte, Jack Jones, Speed, Mapu and White)
5. Having successfully tanked, draft Caleb Williams

That sounds more purposeful than slogging through a 3-14 season on the Good Ship Belichick

I am 100% onboard with a full rebuild, but Patriots Wire is being a bit wishful. BB is definitely not getting fired in-season and Kraft may not fire him at all (though I think he should), preferring to "give him a chance to fix things" or whatever despite 3-4 years worth of evidence that this is broken. I'm fine trading those players though I imagine the return is going to be max a round 6/7 pick for each. I'm fine releasing Schuster-Smith since I forget he is on the team most of the time, including Sundays. Extend Dugger, but dump Brown ASAP. Gesicki... whatever? Fine if cheap. In favor of playing the young guys since that is what rebuilding teams do - see what you have in down years. And finally - the Pats are a clown show, but they aren't getting Williams.

Dr. Gonzo · Oct 11, 2023

Further proof the OL is atrocious. The Pats did move up a spot to 31 though.

The OL on the current active roster signed for 2024 is below and the list is ugly. While investments were made during the 2023 draft, that was the interior line and the results have not been great, to put it mildly, so far.

The team almost has to go OT in the first or, at minimum, second round to give whoever the QB is a chance. Unsure of any vets that would be available in the trade market but that will take draft picks and a big contract which they have seemed hesitant to do.

Guard/Center

Strange
Sow
Mafi
Andrews X2

Tackle

Anderson
Lowe

Jimbodandy · Oct 11, 2023

So weird that among the guys who have thrown more than 100 passes this year, the bottom three in quarterback rating have the #32, #28, and #31 in pass protection OLs.

Cellar-Door · Oct 11, 2023

Koufax said:
Patriots Wire has a 7-step program for the rebuild. In slightly revised form, here is their tear it down to the studs proposal:

1. Fire BB right now and hire a replacement GM and head coach
2. Trade Mac Jones, Uche, Onwenu, Henry and Bourne for picks; release Schuster
3. Extend Duggar and Brown; re-sign Gesicki
4. Play the youngest players (Douglas, Boutte, Jack Jones, Speed, Mapu and White)
5. Having successfully tanked, draft Caleb Williams

That sounds more purposeful than slogging through a 3-14 season on the Good Ship Belichick

LOL

Sorry but this is "I played Madden 10 years ago" levels of dumb shit.

You can't really tank in the NFL like the NBA (also they're losing just fine as it is)/ The idea that you can hire a competent GM and head coach during week 6 is silly shit, those people all have jobs and getting them to quit them isn't happening, how many guys a year get traded mid-season for picks on real contracts... and we're trading 5 of them?

SMU_Sox · Oct 11, 2023

Cellar-Door said:
LOL

Sorry but this is "I played Madden 10 years ago" levels of dumb shit.

You can't really tank in the NFL like the NBA (also they're losing just fine as it is)/ The idea that you can hire a competent GM and head coach during week 6 is silly shit, those people all have jobs and getting them to quit them isn't happening, how many guys a year get traded mid-season for picks on real contracts... and we're trading 5 of them?

It's dumb but a modified version of this wouldn't be. Not sure you fire him in-season though. If they get blown out the next 3 games and you're 1-7 going into the trade deadline you might consider it as an emergency situation though.

As for the OL:

I think it is relatively clear why they have sucked. Of all the things this one is pretty easy to explain:

1) Consistency - they haven't had the same 5 guys build reps with each other. Their gap exchanges and passing off twists and stunts has been awful.

2) Brown is always a streaky player

3) They can't handle routine basic-ass twists and stunts let alone blitzes. Part of this is lack of consistency playing together but part of this is...

4) Their veteran OGs are out and the guys they drafted had major issues vs twists and stunts coming out.

Mafi:

Sow:

Andrews:

My reports are usually a lot longer but the last 50-75 guys I just don't have the time for detailed reports.

I was thinking the other day - they are identifying weaknesses but maybe are overcompensating to fix them.
They wanted "tougher" OL and so they drafted three guys who are tough but all had similar issues in pass pro with twists, stunts, and blitzers.
They wanted "speed" so they drafted guys who ran really fast but didn't exactly do much else.

What is happening now on offense is that the defense can get pressure with just 3-4 guys doing those basic-ass twists and stunts and they have no answer for it. When vanilla schemes absolutely dominate you then you have major systemic issues.

sezwho · Oct 11, 2023

SMU_Sox said:
It's dumb but a modified version of this wouldn't be. Not sure you fire him in-season though. If they get blown out the next 3 games and you're 1-7 going into the trade deadline you might consider it as an emergency situation though.

As for the OL:

I think it is relatively clear why they have sucked. Of all the things this one is pretty easy to explain:

1) Consistency - they haven't had the same 5 guys build reps with each other. Their gap exchanges and passing off twists and stunts has been awful.

2) Brown is always a streaky player

3) They can't handle routine basic-ass twists and stunts let alone blitzes. Part of this is lack of consistency playing together but part of this is...

4) Their veteran OGs are out and the guys they drafted had major issues vs twists and stunts coming out.

Mafi:
View attachment 72355

Sow:
View attachment 72356

Andrews:
View attachment 72357

My reports are usually a lot longer but the last 50-75 guys I just don't have the time for detailed reports.

I was thinking the other day - they are identifying weaknesses but maybe are overcompensating to fix them.
They wanted "tougher" OL and so they drafted three guys who are tough but all had similar issues in pass pro with twists, stunts, and blitzers.
They wanted "speed" so they drafted guys who ran really fast but didn't exactly do much else.

What is happening now on offense is that the defense can get pressure with just 3-4 guys doing those basic-ass twists and stunts and they have no answer for it. When vanilla schemes absolutely dominate you then you have major systemic issues.

Yipes, that’s so tough. Always appreciate the information: at least the scouts are providing accurate takes! It’s particularly ironic given the degree Bill's system seemingly prioritizes blitz pickup over athleticism when drafting and signing ‘skill’ position players. Maybe a couple pages of the manual got printed out of order.

Arroyoyo · Oct 12, 2023

Making the huge assumption that we end up with a top-3 pick, I’m starting to dream about signing Cousins, drafting MH Jr, signing Higgins (who I’m not a huge fan of, but could certainly come around to when paired with MH Jr.), extending Henry, and drafting a QB (Penix, Leonard, Travis?) high in R2 (or move up into the late 1st round) to sit and develop for 2-3 years behind Cousins.

Focus entirely on the OL with every other pick.

Cousins
Harrison Jr
Higgins
Henry
Pop

Would be a pretty solid passing attack to build around. If the defense can come back close to what it was the first 2 weeks, you’d have a team that could make some noise fairly quickly while developing continuity for the future.

Cellar-Door · Oct 14, 2023

One thing I wonder about.....

Obviously someone will take the jobs,it's an NFL GM and Coach position, but......

If Bill gets fired is this one of the least attractive jobs in the league?

Pros....
History of success?

Cons...
No QB
You're following probably the most successful Coach and GM of all time.
Your owner is probably not going to spend (he never has with any of the teams he owns)
Anything short of a Superbowl is a disappointment. You'll be expected to win playoff games no more than 2 years in.

luckiestman · Oct 14, 2023

Cellar-Door said:
One thing I wonder about.....

Obviously someone will take the jobs,it's an NFL GM and Coach position, but......

If Bill gets fired is this one of the least attractive jobs in the league?

Pros....
History of success?

Cons...
No QB
You're following probably the most successful Coach and GM of all time.
Your owner is probably not going to spend (he never has with any of the teams he owns)
Anything short of a Superbowl is a disappointment. You'll be expected to win playoff games no more than 2 years in.

Depends on the draft pick and how they feel about the QBs coming out.

Might not be a lot of jobs open. Reich might be a one and done if he keeps mentioning the owner.

Bears?
Jets is tricky because of the Rodgers thing.

8slim · Oct 14, 2023

Cellar-Door said:
One thing I wonder about.....

Obviously someone will take the jobs,it's an NFL GM and Coach position, but......

If Bill gets fired is this one of the least attractive jobs in the league?

Pros....
History of success?

Cons...
No QB
You're following probably the most successful Coach and GM of all time.
Your owner is probably not going to spend (he never has with any of the teams he owns)
Anything short of a Superbowl is a disappointment. You'll be expected to win playoff games no more than 2 years in.

If James Orthwein could convince Bill Parcells to come here, I’m sure Kraft can find someone half decent.

luckiestman · Oct 14, 2023

8slim said:
If James Orthwein could convince Bill Parcells to come here, I’m sure Kraft can find someone half decent.

Who are the hot candidates right now?
Bienemy
Ben Johnson
Moore?
Houston OC?

I’ve read some lists and it’s hard to deduce anything.

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