As a Pink Floyd/Roger Waters fan, this would make a great fantasy football team name.Eddie Jurak said:
The new look OL
- Thread starter Super Nomario
- Start date
Don't you usually want pretty quick guards in a zone blocking scheme? Sure you don't need to pull your guards too much but they still need to be nimble.Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Wasn't the original thought that he didn't think quickly enough? Unless I'm misreading, the discussion seems to have morphed to him not moving quickly enough, which isn't really the same thing.Shelterdog said:
I think the tweet was about quick thinking, not physically quick. The point being that Pats guards, in particular, do a lot of intricate pulling/stunting and maybe Cannon doesn't do that well enough (what? it takes some sort of genius?). My impression of him is that physically Cannon has very quick feet.
Also, i'm embarrassed to say i don't get the Roger Waters/pro-con-zone blocking thing -- and I like both Waters and zone blocking -- what is my density causing me to miss?
Also, i'm embarrassed to say i don't get the Roger Waters/pro-con-zone blocking thing -- and I like both Waters and zone blocking -- what is my density causing me to miss?
Tony C said:
Roger Waters' 1984 solo album is titled "The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking". I know it's not the best joke, but this board usually gets Giovanni Carmazzi references, so I thought I'd give it a shot.
Oh well, I know next to jack shit about blocking schemes, so I'll let the grown ups talk now.
ah,...thanks, and don't judge the board by a dim light like me.
To return to the new look, OL, I think there are two possibilities:
Solder, Vollmer, Connolly, Kline, Cannon
Or, admittedly a long shot, but Reiss mentioned BB not ruling out more of a rotation (i.e, "we could end up playing more than five"), and I had the thought earlier during preseason that they may be thinking of rotating Cannon in regularly at a T slot, opening up more possibilities for Solder to report as receiver eligible. If that's the case, the guards would be Kline and....Fleming? Or does Wendell get put back in the mix as a starter, moving Connolly back to guard?
This is definitely the position group about which there is the most worry, though I'm pretty confident they'll be fine even without Mankins.
To return to the new look, OL, I think there are two possibilities:
Solder, Vollmer, Connolly, Kline, Cannon
Or, admittedly a long shot, but Reiss mentioned BB not ruling out more of a rotation (i.e, "we could end up playing more than five"), and I had the thought earlier during preseason that they may be thinking of rotating Cannon in regularly at a T slot, opening up more possibilities for Solder to report as receiver eligible. If that's the case, the guards would be Kline and....Fleming? Or does Wendell get put back in the mix as a starter, moving Connolly back to guard?
This is definitely the position group about which there is the most worry, though I'm pretty confident they'll be fine even without Mankins.
TomTerrific said:
Right. If the team doesn't think Cannon is quick enough to play guard, it's because they're looking for quicker guards, which would lend credence to a zone blocking scheme. It's probably least necessary for tackles to be quick out of all linemen in zone blocking.
Zone blocking seems pretty complicated to me, but I guess if DeGuglielmo could teach it to Mike Pouncey and Richie Incognito , there's got to be hope for Cannon; if not, there's always Cameron Fleming.
Tony C said:
To be fair, there is a difference between being smart and being able to think quickly.
Wake destroyed Solder which made the entire OL appear worse than they are based on live action i saw without breaking down tape. The interior line, didn't appear all that bad. To me the primary issue was the Solder/Wake matchup. Be interested to hear from those who both agree with my initial take as well as those who disagree.axx said:
I almsot punched my Facebook after Solder got beat on the edge and two people immediately posted pics of Mankins. Wtf seriously.
Solder wasn't the only one to get whipped by Wake, Hooman was absurdly responsible for one Wake sack (should never had him one on one) and he whipped Vollmer for one as well.
I would say that NE simply didn't have an answer for Wake an Vernon also had his way. The interior OL did have their struggles as well since a lot of the pressure was up the middle which is Brady's kryptonite.
I would say that NE simply didn't have an answer for Wake an Vernon also had his way. The interior OL did have their struggles as well since a lot of the pressure was up the middle which is Brady's kryptonite.
Is Hartsock still unsigned? The Pats really need a better blocker than Hooman to help out this line until Gronk can resume full duties.j44thor said:
Also wouldn't mind mixing in some Vollmer at guard this week given Cannon has played well at tackle in the past and looked awful at guard today.
Stitch01 said:
I thought just the opposite - I think Cannon alone was decent in pass protection and that Solder, Vollmer, Ridley/Hooman, and the rotating cast of thousands at C/RG were far more responsible.
What is the basis for the statement "Cannon was terrible?" Just my observations, so I'm interested in what you saw that was so different from mine.
j44thor said:
I spent 3 hours breaking down the line play yesterday, and I'm pretty happy that you pointed this out.
Solder wasn't fantastic or anything, but he had nothing to do with the Wake sacks.
Looking at the stats, I was probably colored a bit by the early missed block by Cannon. He looked awkward in pass protection and didn't get any push going in the run game. That said, he allowed 3 hits on Brady, but might not have been as bad as Devey (5 hurries allowed) or Connolly (4 hurries and a hit allowed). Cannon was bad, but not notably worse than the other players on the OL who played terribly.
Running backs didn't block much and graded out OK in blocking, so I don't think those were big factors. Gronk only pass blocked 5 times and graded out OK by PFF standards. Hooman wasn't good.
Running backs didn't block much and graded out OK in blocking, so I don't think those were big factors. Gronk only pass blocked 5 times and graded out OK by PFF standards. Hooman wasn't good.
The one spot on the O-Line where we thought we were really solid was at both T positions. The interior was not good, very little push in the run game, but when Brady was running for his life in the 2nd half most of the problem was coming from the outside.j44thor said:
Does Game 2 OL look like Solder--Kline--Connoly--Vollmer--Cannon? Kline looked better in his 1 start at LG last year than any of those other guys looked yesterday.
soxfan121 said:
I agree. My impression is/was he flailed in run blocking some, but was their best in pass protection. Numbers posted here back that up:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11487309/new-england-patriots-trouble-week-1-performance-versus-dolphins-nfl
The tackles were definitely the problem in pass protection, though the RG slot hardly bathed in glory.
We're grading on a curve. 
Speaking of which, I bitched during the preseason, during cutdowns and before the game and will keep bitching: what is Devey doing on this team? I know I know I don't see what they see during practice: but he played a ton during PS and sucked quite consistently, and he sucked out loud on Sunday. I've seen plenty. From the other thread:
PFF quick notes with usual caveats about the numbers for those interested
He's the Joe Vellano of the offense -- just no reason for him to be anything but deepest depth.
Speaking of which, I bitched during the preseason, during cutdowns and before the game and will keep bitching: what is Devey doing on this team? I know I know I don't see what they see during practice: but he played a ton during PS and sucked quite consistently, and he sucked out loud on Sunday. I've seen plenty. From the other thread:
PFF quick notes with usual caveats about the numbers for those interested
He's the Joe Vellano of the offense -- just no reason for him to be anything but deepest depth.
Dan Koppen said Devey just hasn't yet learned his craft--like how to counter an incoming tackle. Unfortunately, he seems to be viewed as ahead of Kline.
This got me thinking about Brady's sack rate. I think our popular opinion is that during Dante's tenure while things might be a little shaky at first, he always pretty much got them sorted out by the end of the year but then sometimes during the playoffs things would get bad for one reason or another.
So I figured we would see a general reduction in 'Sack Rate' ( Sacks / Pass Attempts ) but it doesnt seem to be the case. What seems to happen is that they have a couple clunkers and he gets 1 or more sacks out of every 10 attempts for a game.
Another thing I noticed is that while Sunday really looked bad (and I think its because there was such egregious line play on the sacks themselves) from a Sack Rate standpoint its really not that terrible. Against Miami it was 7.1%, last year in Game 5 against Cincy it was 10.5%, in Game 6 against New Orleans it was 11.6% and in Game 8 against Miami it was 13.6%.
[tablegrid= Brady Sacks ]Date Year Game Att Sack Sack Rate / Sack Per Attempt 7-Sep 2014 1 56 4 7.1% 8-Sep 2013 1 52 3 5.8% 12-Sep 2013 2 39 1 2.6% 22-Sep 2013 3 36 3 8.3% 29-Sep 2013 4 31 0 0.0% 6-Oct 2013 5 38 4 10.5% 13-Oct 2013 6 43 5 11.6% 20-Oct 2013 7 46 4 8.7% 27-Oct 2013 8 22 3 13.6% 3-Nov 2013 9 33 3 9.1% 18-Nov 2013 10 40 2 5.0% 24-Nov 2013 11 50 3 6.0% 1-Dec 2013 12 41 1 2.4% 8-Dec 2013 13 52 4 7.7% 15-Dec 2013 14 55 1 1.8% 22-Dec 2013 15 26 2 7.7% 29-Dec 2013 16 24 1 4.2% 9-Sep 2012 1 31 1 3.2% 16-Sep 2012 2 46 4 8.7% 23-Sep 2012 3 41 2 4.9% 30-Sep 2012 4 36 1 2.8% 7-Oct 2012 5 31 4 12.9% 14-Oct 2012 6 58 1 1.7% 21-Oct 2012 7 42 1 2.4% 28-Oct 2012 8 35 0 0.0% 11-Nov 2012 9 38 1 2.6% 18-Nov 2012 10 35 0 0.0% 22-Nov 2012 11 27 0 0.0% 2-Dec 2012 12 40 4 10.0% 10-Dec 2012 13 35 1 2.9% 16-Dec 2012 14 65 3 4.6% 23-Dec 2012 15 41 3 7.3% 30-Dec 2012 16 36 1 2.8% 12-Sep 2011 1 48 1 2.1% 18-Sep 2011 2 40 2 5.0% 25-Sep 2011 3 45 0 0.0% 2-Oct 2011 4 30 1 3.3% 9-Oct 2011 5 33 4 12.1% 16-Oct 2011 6 41 3 7.3% 30-Oct 2011 7 35 3 8.6% 6-Nov 2011 8 49 2 4.1% 13-Nov 2011 9 39 0 0.0% 21-Nov 2011 10 27 3 11.1% 27-Nov 2011 11 34 1 2.9% 4-Dec 2011 12 38 1 2.6% 11-Dec 2011 13 37 1 2.7% 18-Dec 2011 14 34 2 5.9% 24-Dec 2011 15 46 4 8.7% 1-Jan 2011 16 35 4 11.4%
Then I also wanted to baseline his Sack Rate. I just took the QBs who started 16 games last year and calculated their Sack Rate. I wasnt surprised but impressed that Peytons was that low, but a lot of them are 7%+ and the rate for all these guys was 6.8% So realistically things dont seem that horrific
[tablegrid= 2013 Sack Rate ]Player Att Sk Sack Rate Russell Wilson 407 44 10.8% Colin Kaepernick 416 39 9.4% Geno Smith 443 43 9.7% Cam Newton 473 43 9.1% Philip Rivers 544 30 5.5% Eli Manning 551 39 7.1% Andrew Luck 570 32 5.6% Carson Palmer 572 41 7.2% Ben Roethlisberger 584 42 7.2% Andy Dalton 586 29 4.9% Ryan Tannehill 588 58 9.9% Joe Flacco 614 48 7.8% Tom Brady 628 40 6.4% Matthew Stafford 634 23 3.6% Drew Brees 650 37 5.7% Matt Ryan 651 44 6.8% Peyton Manning 659 18 2.7% Total 9570 650 6.8%
So I figured we would see a general reduction in 'Sack Rate' ( Sacks / Pass Attempts ) but it doesnt seem to be the case. What seems to happen is that they have a couple clunkers and he gets 1 or more sacks out of every 10 attempts for a game.
Another thing I noticed is that while Sunday really looked bad (and I think its because there was such egregious line play on the sacks themselves) from a Sack Rate standpoint its really not that terrible. Against Miami it was 7.1%, last year in Game 5 against Cincy it was 10.5%, in Game 6 against New Orleans it was 11.6% and in Game 8 against Miami it was 13.6%.
[tablegrid= Brady Sacks ]
Then I also wanted to baseline his Sack Rate. I just took the QBs who started 16 games last year and calculated their Sack Rate. I wasnt surprised but impressed that Peytons was that low, but a lot of them are 7%+ and the rate for all these guys was 6.8% So realistically things dont seem that horrific
[tablegrid= 2013 Sack Rate ]
One last note, I realize Sacks dont tell the whole story and using 'pressures' would really be a better tool to assess offensive line play, but as far as I know pressures data isnt available anywhere and its also somewhat subjective.
Plus, Sacks are somewhat chicken and egg. Take Game 1 of 2012 against the Titans with a sack rate of 3.2%. Brady completed 74% of his passes and his rating was 117 while Ridley rushed for 125 yards averaging 5.9 yards per carry. In that situation I dont think there was a lot of pressure on the line trying to protect Brady to avoid sacks. While I dont remember the specifics of the game, I wouldnt be surprised if it was one of the situations where Brady knew exactly where he was going before the ball was even snapped and he was consistently getting the passes off quickly. So that sack rate is a tad misleading.
Plus, Sacks are somewhat chicken and egg. Take Game 1 of 2012 against the Titans with a sack rate of 3.2%. Brady completed 74% of his passes and his rating was 117 while Ridley rushed for 125 yards averaging 5.9 yards per carry. In that situation I dont think there was a lot of pressure on the line trying to protect Brady to avoid sacks. While I dont remember the specifics of the game, I wouldnt be surprised if it was one of the situations where Brady knew exactly where he was going before the ball was even snapped and he was consistently getting the passes off quickly. So that sack rate is a tad misleading.
Yeah sorry, sack rate is largely meaningless esp for a QB like Brady who not only can't make plays outside the pocket, he really needs to be able to step up in the pocket to deliver the ball with authority/accuracy. If you collapse the middle of the pocket against Brady you effectively neuter him even if you never get a hand on him. A sack could just be a busted play or play action gone wrong. When the interior OL is allowing penetration that is Brady's kryptonite sack or no sack.
It is also possible that Brady gets rid of the ball quickly and inaccurately rather than taking the sack if pressure is coming up the middle in his face. Occasionally he will still get sacked with up the gut pressure but I'm willing to bet those lead to more incompletions than sacks compared to edge pressure that he might not realize until they are on him.
It is also possible that Brady gets rid of the ball quickly and inaccurately rather than taking the sack if pressure is coming up the middle in his face. Occasionally he will still get sacked with up the gut pressure but I'm willing to bet those lead to more incompletions than sacks compared to edge pressure that he might not realize until they are on him.
Time for this team to have Stork as the everyday center of this team. Offensive line is much better with him in there.
Time to move Vollmer to LT, Cannon to RT, Kline to LG, and Solder to the bench? I think Vollmer-Kline-Stork-Connolly-Cannon may be their best unit.
If Klein isn't better than Devey, then it's time to start working guys out (and wondering again about the Mankins trade). There has to be somebody out there who can block. The Eagles basically used a full-backup unit on the OL and they didn't look appreciably worse than the Pats starters.Stitch01 said:
Stitch01 said:
Yes, but I think even admitting our limited info, that grading has to be questioned. I get being patient with Solder even though he's had struggles. But Devey doesn't appear to be NFL ready.
As mwownow says, if that's the best they can roll out then bring in some journeyman from somewhere.
And really hope that Stork shows enough in practice to start getting more C reps in games. That's needed, too.
I don't understand Devey over Kline either, but I don't think benching Solder to play a guy they think is worse than probably the worst starter in football is going to happen.
I do think if Stork settles in at center they might go trade the pick they got for Mankins or something like it for a guard. Then they could go Stork-trade-Connolly and play Cannon at tackle if Solder doesn't revert to form. I doubt that will be a good line, but decent chance its adequate and allows for a functional offense and gives the team a chance. If Stork cant take the starting role I wouldn't bother, just not good enough then to burn future assets on.
I do think if Stork settles in at center they might go trade the pick they got for Mankins or something like it for a guard. Then they could go Stork-trade-Connolly and play Cannon at tackle if Solder doesn't revert to form. I doubt that will be a good line, but decent chance its adequate and allows for a functional offense and gives the team a chance. If Stork cant take the starting role I wouldn't bother, just not good enough then to burn future assets on.
He might be able to, but I don't believe he has. He would be small for a G. It's more likely they'd play Wendell at C and play someone else at G.Stitch01 said:
Can Stork play guard? Just thinking that if Connelly can't go this week, Wendell and Stork can both only play center, and Kline is still buried somewhere below me on the depth chart, than we are sort of stuck with our friend Devey for another week.
I think Stork at G / Wendell at C is more likely than the reverse, but I think one of those guys at C and Devey or Kline at G is the most probable outcome.Stitch01 said:
The Devey thing is really messing with me as someone who tries to be analytical about football. He must be showing something in practice to have won the starting job, and I'm not sure three bad games should offset them - but damn, I can't figure out what BB / Gugs see in him because he has been garbage. He's not even young - he turns 27 in January. Maybe we chalk this one up to whatever made them think Sergio Brown was a starting safety in 2011?
Me too. Plus no one else saw anything in him either, he was an UDFA and then signed to the practice squad off the street. He didn't look good in his preseason game action. Meanwhile Kline was pretty good in limited action last year. Its a head scratcher.
Mike Petraglia @Trags 14m
No Siliga at #Patriots shorts and shells practice. Mystery man No. 93 appears while psquader OL Chris Martin is absent
No Siliga at #Patriots shorts and shells practice. Mystery man No. 93 appears while psquader OL Chris Martin is absent
Jeff Howe speculated in today's Herald that Wendell might be under consideration--but to replace Cannon, not Connelly.http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots_nfl/new_england_patriots/2014/09/patriots_notebook_bryan_stork_ready_to_deliver_at
A lot of speculation that Stork will start Monday.
A lot of speculation that Stork will start Monday.