The Krafts

[astrozombie]

None of this really shocks me.
Bill was hard to work for and with? huh. He came across as arrogant? hmmm. He was stuck on choosing certain players despite others disagreeing? I think we can all agree love him or hate him he must have felt it was in the best interest of the team. Hard to be pissed about that. He mighta been wrong....or he might have expected bounce back performances but he wasnt trying to be a dick by losing. After 20 years of (by all appearances) being given a free hand to run the football team he suddenly was being (even if slightly) micromanageed? And he chaffed at that. Shocker.

That Robert talked to another owner 1v1....so you expect some candor.....and told him "Yea Bill isnt warm and fuzzy.....so your not gonna like him". Seems perfectly reasonable. No One ever said he should need to "lie" for Bill.
Now we could debate that he shouldve/couldve said "What you see is what you get with Bill". But if your religious friend (which I assume Blank and Kraft are) came to you and asked how you liked his Bleach blond ex-stripper GF who is better now, after rehab..... would you tell him "Hey I cant really give you an opinion". Of course not. Your probably gonna point out some red flags.

Also IF RK had said "Now Defensively? His football mind? I have never met someone so astute" that just doesnt generate the same clicks as "Dont hire him". So who knows what was said and NOT reported on because it just wasnt juicy.

If I was being 100% honest with someone from the sons of Early Deion Sanders I would probably say the same thing if I knew them and they told me "I love it when my coach gives gregarious press conferences. Will Bill Do that??" "Ehhhhh....."


Now Kraft may well be a jerk ..... ..but its not for a conversation with Blank.

These thoughts kind of align with my own. The article seemed to conflate "having a candid conversation" with "Kraft threw BB under the bus out of spite". Did Kraft do that? Maybe. He has a big ego, maybe he retroactively wants more of the credit now that things are sour and he's catching some heat. But I would also not be surprised if these candid conversations contained such damning things as "BB sticks to his guns" or "in 20 years, yeah, we had some disagreements" or "I didn't love all of his hires, but never questioned them" or "Bill is getting up there, I think he might retire after a few years regardless of where his team is". Those are all candid comments that are pretty far from "don't hire this snake under any circumstances". And not for nothing, Wickersham is always the one doing articles about Pats dysfunction, Spygate, Deflategate, so I can't help but feel his stuff is kinda biased.

 

[Cellar-Door]

The two thoughts that leap out at me is that many folks who are normally suspicious of any reporting from the WWL fully embraced that ESPN piece.

Also, if people cannot see how BB's style would not work with certain folks - especially prospective bosses but also just certain types of personalities - its hard to have this conversation. BB seems pretty unapologetic about who he is and how he operates. He also strikes me as someone who is pretty self aware so it probably not lost on him that some folks don't vibe with how he does things.

I mean, maybe, but I think people are less skeptical about it because it reflects what we saw Kraft say directly into a camera in a documentary he trumpeted.

 

[Cellar-Door]

That's not exactly what I said. Yes, Jonathan Kraft wouldn't be the President of the New England Patriots or the New England Revolution, but the idea that Jonathan Kraft wouldn't be successful "at all in life" without his father/mother could be said for every single kid who grew up in an affluent town to successful parents, or shit 90% of the population that had active, engaged parents.

Did Jonathan get into Williams College in 1982, because of his father's paper company and more than a decade before he owned the Patriots? Did his father get him the job at Bain, where he worked before he left and got an MBA from Harvard? Is it because of his father that he now sits on the Board of Dean's advisors at Harvard Business School, and as a Trustee Emeritus at Williams College, his two alma maters? Both of which he graduated from before Kraft owned the team. As previously mentioned, he is the chairman of the board at MGH, he sits on the boards of Belmont Hill School, Dexter Southfield, Partners Healthcare, he chairs the Boston Children's Hospital Stem Cell Advisory Board, he's a member of MIT's Dean's advisory Council, and he's a member of the advisory board of the Billie Jean King Leadership Initiative. Is Robert holding his hand when he meets with these folks and does his work?

Again, if we're going to shit on Jonathan by saying he's only where he is because of his father, I've got a long, long list of folks that we could add to that same list, myself included (and my father never graduated high school), but at some point, a man stands on his own two feet and on his own accomplishments, and I think it's myopic to say that without Bob, Jonathan would be doing some sort of manual labor somewhere or whatever someone means when they say "every opportunity he's ever had is because of his father."

I mean... probably? In the sense that he spent a college tuition on Belmont Hill School.

Listen you can like Jon Kraft, that's awesome, but pretending he has had anything but the traditional millionaire's son path from ultra-rich kid private school to private college, brief stop at Bain (did he get that because of his Dad... probably?) to the Business school his father was an alumni and donor of straight into a role in his father's company that no other fresh grad school graduate could dream of, a role he never left...

All the other things you listed are..... exactly the things you invite rich guys (often alumni and donors) to based on no particular skillset.

Do these things mean he can't be good at all of those roles... nope, he could be ultra-competent, but they also all stem from his father and his father's business.

 

[Salva135]

I mean, maybe, but I think people are less skeptical about it because it reflects what we saw Kraft say directly into a camera in a documentary he trumpeted.

There's a chasm between airing grievances in a documentary and actively sabotaging one's job prospects. The skepticism should be through the roof.

 

[Myt1]

Every NFL owner is a smarmy POS. Every one of them. As others have said, he genuinely cares about his team as a fan and wants them to win, which is more than you can say for a handful of owners in the league. Would you rather have Tepper? Davis? Irsay?

I don't buy the story of Kraft badmouthing BB to Blank. Kraft made it extremely clear in his post-firing presser that he felt BB had too much power in the end and was done with that arrangement, but sabotaging his future job prospects is right up there with the rest of sports talk radio discussion. It's a bad look if today is the day you're buying Wickersham's unnamed sources.

How different in kind are the allegations in Wickersham’s article from how Belichick is portrayed in The Dynasty? Seems like lots of players think that Belichick got done dirty there.

 

[Myt1]

There's a chasm between airing grievances in a documentary and actively sabotaging one's job prospects. The skepticism should be through the roof.

What’s the chasm if you know the other potential employer personally? I’d say that the public documentary—that your production team made—is actually far more aggressive than talking to Blank directly, but I’m willing to listen to your explanation for why it’s actually the other way around instead.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I mean... probably? In the sense that he spent a college tuition on Belmont Hill School.

Listen you can like Jon Kraft, that's awesome, but pretending he has had anything but the traditional millionaire's son path from ultra-rich kid private school to private college, brief stop at Bain (did he get that because of his Dad... probably?) to the Business school his father was an alumni and donor of straight into a role in his father's company that no other fresh grad school graduate could dream of, a role he never left...

All the other things you listed are..... exactly the things you invite rich guys (often alumni and donors) to based on no particular skillset.

Do these things mean he can't be good at all of those roles... nope, he could be ultra-competent, but they also all stem from his father and his father's business.

And as someone else mentioned, so does Bill Belichick owe all of his opportunities to his father?

Kyle Shanahan?

Is Sean McDonough only successful because his father was Will?

There are a metric fuckton of millionaire and billionaire donors around here. There's only one Chairman of the Board at one of the top 3 hospitals in the fucking world. But yeah, he got that because he has "no particular skillset."

At what point does a son of a successful person not have to fight off these nonsense claims? Does Dale Earnhardt Jr. lose points as a NASCAR driver because he wouldn't have been one if his dad wasn't the Terminator?

Should we shit on Jayson Tatum and claim that he's nothing without his basketball coach father, who also gave him the genes to be 6'9?

And forget sports and entertainment celebrities. Shit, your thoughts about Kraft should apply to virtually every single kid who's come from a stable family since the dawn of time. If I was born in Venezuela instead of here, and if my father was in prison, I can safely assume I'm not sitting here in my office having a conversation with you folks on Sons of Sam Horn during my work day, while my employees run around doing work. So every opportunity I've had stems from the fact that I had opportunities that most of the planet didn't have, so did you, and I would venture to guess it applies to just about everyone here. Just because Jonathan Kraft had more opportunities than I had doesn't change that calculus in the slightest.

It's nonsense. You're talking about Jonathan Kraft like he's Paris Hilton. Woody Johnson's daughter died of an overdose at 30. It's ridiculous to think that just because they have opportunities that others may not have, that they couldn't also easily squander them away without a fuckton of their own hard work.

And to be clear, I don't like Jonathan Kraft. I think he's an asshole, like @Bleedred does. I've just been pushing back on the idea that this team will be in worse hands under him than it was under his father for reasons that nobody can explain other than he's a rich kid. Clark Hunt is a rich kid too who took over Daddy's team. Seems to be working ok in Kansas City.

 

[Salva135]

What’s the chasm if you know the other potential employer personally? I’d say that the public documentary—that your production team made—is actually far more aggressive than talking to Blank directly, but I’m willing to listen to your explanation for why it’s actually the other way around instead.

You don't see the difference between airing public grievances and actively telling a fellow potential employer, "don't hire this guy?"

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I mean, maybe, but I think people are less skeptical about it because it reflects what we saw Kraft say directly into a camera in a documentary he trumpeted.

He didn't say those things in Dynasty.

 

[Dogman]

Mike Wallace and even Theo aren't in the ballpark, wealth-wise.
No clue who DIck Goodwin is.
And for the love of God, spell Conan's name right if you're going to criticize someone.

Holy shit, really? Kraft donated at least $500K to the very affluent Brookline school system and you are criticizing him because, in your mind, that isn't enough. Never mind that he donates tons of money to other non-profits and projects and has put billions into the town of Foxboro. But, yeah, wish it was more.

And you are criticizing someone over the spelling of a name (with your posting history, this is very rich) while criticizing someone else who "only" donated half a million? Look inward.

 

[Cellar-Door]

And as someone else mentioned, so does Bill Belichick owe all of his opportunities to his father?

I'm going to move on, but if you can't tell the difference between a guy who had a ton of jobs that have no relation to his father and someone whose entire career his primary job has been working for his father I don't know what to tell you. Or the difference between a kid having a coach for a father and being the 1 in a million who makes it to the NBA and Kraft.... c;mon.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

But in a conversation with Blank, Kraft delivered a stark assessment of Belichick's character, according to a source who spoke to two people: a close Kraft friend and a longtime Belichick confidant. The source quoted the Belichick source as saying, "Robert called Arthur to warn him not to trust Bill." That account was backed up, the source said, by the close Kraft friend.

This is such a convoluted game of telephone that it's hard to keep straight who is saying what, but it might instructive to try to parse out who has incentives here. Presumably, this was a private phone call. So, our "source" is a person who spoke to someone adjacent to Belichick about a call between Blank and Kraft? So, that's four steps removed:

1) Blank and Kraft have a call.
2) Belichick gets some information about it. How?
3) Belichick tells someone he is adjacent to.
4) Wickersham (et al.)'s source then learns it from the guy adjacent to Belichick?

And then it is confirmed by the same source, who also spoke with a friend of Kraft?

I don't have any grounds to doubt the truth of the reporting but this starts to be a pretty convoluted path for reliable information.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

But in a conversation with Blank, Kraft delivered a stark assessment of Belichick's character, according to a source who spoke to two people: a close Kraft friend and a longtime Belichick confidant. The source quoted the Belichick source as saying, "Robert called Arthur to warn him not to trust Bill." That account was backed up, the source said, by the close Kraft friend.

This is such a convoluted game of telephone that it's hard to keep straight who is saying what, but it might instructive to try to parse out who has incentives here. Presumably, this was a private phone call. So, our "source" is a person who spoke to someone adjacent to Belichick about a call between Blank and Kraft? So, that's four steps removed:

1) Blank and Kraft have a call.
2) Belichick gets some information about it. How?
3) Belichick tells someone he is adjacent to.
4) Wickersham (et al.)'s source then learns it from the guy adjacent to Belichick?

And then it is confirmed by the same source, who also spoke with a friend of Kraft?

I don't have any grounds to doubt the truth of the reporting but this starts to be a pretty convoluted path for reliable information.

This is believable because some people need a narrative that contemplates good v evil rather than the very common real life outcome of situations running their course.

Of course all these egos are salty. That's how these things typically end. And nobody is good or evil. But hey, narratives work or else CHB would be at the glue factory already.

Edit: I love how Wickersham is now credible again because he is parroting a story that appeals to some Pats fans.

 

[cornwalls@6]

This is believable because some people need a narrative that contemplates good v evil rather than the very common real life outcome of situations running their course.

Of course all these egos are salty. That's how these things typically end. And nobody is good or evil. But hey, narratives work or else CHB would be at the glue factory already.

Edit: I love how Wickersham is now credible again because he is parroting a story that appeals to some Pats fans.

But if it were verified, would you view Kraft calling Bill untrustworthy just a salty ego thing? Seems like that would veer a little further towards a smear. I don’t disagree that believing Wickersham lock, stock, and barrel would be a major change of course around here. But combining this with Krafts digs at BB in the dynasty doc, seems like there's enough smoke for discussion.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

This is believable because some people need a narrative that contemplates good v evil rather than the very common real life outcome of situations running their course.

Of course all these egos are salty. That's how these things typically end. And nobody is good or evil. But hey, narratives work or else CHB would be at the glue factory already.

I disagree with the first sentence entirely.

If Bob Kraft had simply left the entire situation thanking Bill Belichick as the greatest coach of all time, and standing by the "mutual parting of ways," there isn't even a discussion.


Instead, we got this:


"The tension between Bill and Tom was clear. I asked Tommy to come over to my house and air out what was going on," Kraft said. "Tommy and Gisele came to my house and they were really upset. I had Gisele say, 'That effing Belichick, he doesn't treat my Tommy like a man.' She thought Bill was disrespectful to Tommy and that it was time to move on. I realized how bad the situation was. And I said, 'Look, Tommy, if you wanna go, I'll work it out so you can go.'"

What did "Tommy" say about this meeting?

"Yeah, I mean," Brady said, trying to cut off the question before a long gaze into the void. "Yeah, there are things that I'd like to keep to myself. Look, there's no perfect relationship, you know. And there's things that are said and are done that can't be [unsaid] or undone."

When asked about their communication breaking down between Bill/Tom, we got this:

"Basically it was a silent relationship. Before, there had been tension. But now it was just totally dysfunctional," Kraft said of Brady and Belichick.

And while Brady didn't want to explore the negative memories too much, he did admit, "We just didn't talk a lot."

Then Kraft gave us this gem:

"Tommy is the greatest in the 100-year history of the game, and I think he represented a threat to Bill's full power. He didn't want Tommy there," Kraft said.

Bill's statement: "For a head coach, all the relationships are very important. It starts at the top with ownership, and it can derail some positive and constructive progress if those things don't work out well."


More Kraft:

"And so when you come to the decision, you know, Brady or Belichick, I thought back to the Eagles Super Bowl. Tommy threw over 500 yards but Bill made a tremendous error. I credited Bill with that loss. To be honest, my head coach is a pain in the tush. But I was willing to put up with it as long as we won. So for the next Super Bowl, I wanted to keep an eye on him," Kraft said. "After winning that Super Bowl, I thought what an amazing defensive job our staff did under the leadership of Bill. So if I ever thought that Bill was losing it as a head coach and couldn't perform, he had reestablished himself. At that point, Tommy understood that Bill would be the head coach for a number of years going forward."


On the end:

Brady:

He added: "Life is very imperfect and relationships are imperfect, but ... I'm very proud of our journey. It was hard. But, um … but it was great."

While the ending got ugly, it's clear Brady doesn't want to remember it that way.

"In the end, you look back," an emotional Brady said. "And seeing that whole journey, you know, it's perfect. It doesn't need to be more than that."

"My teammates, Robert, Jonathan, their whole family, everyone I know so closely, Bill, his family … I have unbreakable bonds with those people," Brady said. "I've been through it all with them."

Bill:

"I have great love, respect and appreciation for all the people that have given so much to help the team," Belichick said. "I tried to help it in my way, but we all play a part in it, and we all need each other."



Folks don't need narratives in this situation. We have two guys in Bill and Tom who have publicly taken the high road at every turn, and then there's Kraft. There's really not more to it than that, at least for me.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

But if it were verified, would you view Kraft calling Bill untrustworthy just a salty ego thing? Seems like that would veer a little further towards a smear. I don’t disagree that believing Wickersham lock, stock, and barrel would be a major change of course around here. But combining this with Krafts digs at BB in the dynasty doc, seems like there's enough smoke for discussion.

Again, I don't see anything revelatory here - I absolutely love BB but I think he'd be a very difficult employee and and even worse boss, especially if the team is struggling.

I'm not in the NFL but in my industry there is well understood language for when someone is problematic. Its rare that someone outright questions someone's integrity - typically you can convey a lot of information with few words. Maybe Kraft did exactly what was reported (I would argue that if you buy it, you have to buy all of Wickersham's reporting including the parts that make the Pats look bad) but this feels like someone between the actual parties to the story and the reporters did some interpretation. But that's just my WAG.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I disagree with the first sentence entirely.

If Bob Kraft had simply left the entire situation thanking Bill Belichick as the greatest coach of all time, and standing by the "mutual parting of ways," there isn't even a discussion.


Instead, we got this:

"The tension between Bill and Tom was clear. I asked Tommy to come over to my house and air out what was going on," Kraft said. "Tommy and Gisele came to my house and they were really upset. I had Gisele say, 'That effing Belichick, he doesn't treat my Tommy like a man.' She thought Bill was disrespectful to Tommy and that it was time to move on. I realized how bad the situation was. And I said, 'Look, Tommy, if you wanna go, I'll work it out so you can go.'"

What did "Tommy" say about this meeting?

"Yeah, I mean," Brady said, trying to cut off the question before a long gaze into the void. "Yeah, there are things that I'd like to keep to myself. Look, there's no perfect relationship, you know. And there's things that are said and are done that can't be [unsaid] or undone."

When asked about their communication breaking down between Bill/Tom, we got this:

"Basically it was a silent relationship. Before, there had been tension. But now it was just totally dysfunctional," Kraft said of Brady and Belichick.

And while Brady didn't want to explore the negative memories too much, he did admit, "We just didn't talk a lot."

Then Kraft gave us this gem:

"Tommy is the greatest in the 100-year history of the game, and I think he represented a threat to Bill's full power. He didn't want Tommy there," Kraft said.

Bill's statement: "For a head coach, all the relationships are very important. It starts at the top with ownership, and it can derail some positive and constructive progress if those things don't work out well."


More Kraft:

"And so when you come to the decision, you know, Brady or Belichick, I thought back to the Eagles Super Bowl. Tommy threw over 500 yards but Bill made a tremendous error. I credited Bill with that loss. To be honest, my head coach is a pain in the tush. But I was willing to put up with it as long as we won. So for the next Super Bowl, I wanted to keep an eye on him," Kraft said. "After winning that Super Bowl, I thought what an amazing defensive job our staff did under the leadership of Bill. So if I ever thought that Bill was losing it as a head coach and couldn't perform, he had reestablished himself. At that point, Tommy understood that Bill would be the head coach for a number of years going forward."


On the end:

Brady:

He added: "Life is very imperfect and relationships are imperfect, but ... I'm very proud of our journey. It was hard. But, um … but it was great."

While the ending got ugly, it's clear Brady doesn't want to remember it that way.

"In the end, you look back," an emotional Brady said. "And seeing that whole journey, you know, it's perfect. It doesn't need to be more than that."

"My teammates, Robert, Jonathan, their whole family, everyone I know so closely, Bill, his family … I have unbreakable bonds with those people," Brady said. "I've been through it all with them."

Bill:

"I have great love, respect and appreciation for all the people that have given so much to help the team," Belichick said. "I tried to help it in my way, but we all play a part in it, and we all need each other."



Folks don't need narratives in this situation. We have two guys in Bill and Tom who have publicly taken the high road at every turn, and then there's Kraft. There's really not more to it than that, at least for me.

I will stop here because I don't want to dominate the thread but I interpreted all of that to be reflective of who those people are. Brady avoids controversy but admitted that things were imperfect. Kraft goes into greater detail but doesn't call BB untrustworthy or anything like that.

BB was a pain in the tush. We should all be able to agree on that. Its fine when you win...

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I will stop here because I don't want to dominate the thread but I interpreted all of that to be reflective of who those people are. Brady avoids controversy but admitted that things were imperfect. Kraft goes into greater detail but doesn't call BB untrustworthy or anything like that.

BB was a pain in the tush. We should all be able to agree on that. Its fine when you win...

I don't think you're looking at it from an impartial point of view. Kraft publicly blamed Belichick for losing the Eagles SB. He treats Tommy like a son, and refers to his coach as a pain in the ass. He's making Belichick sound insecure as hell when he says "Tommy represented a threat to Bill's full power." He basically insinuated that he had to look over Bill's shoulder in the SB against the Rams so Bill could earn his respect/trust/what back?

Frankly, I blame Belichick for the loss to the Eagles too, and of course Bill is arrogant and a pain in the ass and a curmudgeon. You and I can say that shit, it means nothing. Bob Kraft had the opportunity to make this all go away and everyone can move on, and the fans wouldn't give two shits, but instead, he helps produce a documentary and can't control himself from providing sound bite after sound bite about how Bill was the problem and he, the savior Bob Kraft, had to keep the train a chugging all along.


And let's not forget, Bob Kraft was saying all of this shit while Bill Belichick was still on the sidelines coaching his team. It's insane to me. This isn't a narrative, it's what happened. Meanwhile, I'm 1000000% sure that Brady and Bill had plenty of things they would have liked to have said or could have said about Kraft, and didn't. That's the distinction.

 

[j-man]

yeah mr kraft and bill need to stop blameing each other and blame the bears gm in 2017 or sean payton for not getting mahomes

had mahomes gone anywhere but KC u guys win 1-2 more rings

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I don't think you're looking at it from an impartial point of view. Kraft publicly blamed Belichick for losing the Eagles SB. He treats Tommy like a son, and refers to his coach as a pain in the ass. He's making Belichick sound insecure as hell when he says "Tommy represented a threat to Bill's full power." He basically insinuated that he had to look over Bill's shoulder in the SB against the Rams so Bill could earn his respect/trust/what back?

Frankly, I blame Belichick for the loss to the Eagles too, and of course Bill is arrogant and a pain in the ass and a curmudgeon. You and I can say that shit, it means nothing. Bob Kraft had the opportunity to make this all go away and everyone can move on, and the fans wouldn't give two shits, but instead, he helps produce a documentary and can't control himself from providing sound bite after sound bite about how Bill was the problem and he, the savior Bob Kraft, had to keep the train a chugging all along.


And let's not forget, Bob Kraft was saying all of this shit while Bill Belichick was still on the sidelines coaching his team. It's insane to me. This isn't a narrative, it's what happened. Meanwhile, I'm 1000000% sure that Brady and Bill had plenty of things they would have liked to have said or could have said about Kraft, and didn't. That's the distinction.

I agree that Kraft made some notable choices for his documentary. None of it felt cheap or even grossly inaccurate to me even if keeping it private might have kept up appearances.

Also, I wonder how much any of that stuff bothers BB anyway.

Finally, I actually like BB more than Kraft but maybe I am missing something here and am subconsciously a Kraft stan.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I would guess Kraft 100% talked shit about Bill to other owners, talking about how difficult he was to deal with, etc. etc.

I also think it had very little to do with Bill not getting a job, I think age and people already in the building who have far more trust from the owner than Kraft being against it. In ATL for example, no matter what he leaked, I think RIch McKay had ZERO interest in being Bill Bellichik's boss. I would guess most other places were similar, and there was some real reason not to want Bill as your GM.

 

[Myt1]

You don't see the difference between airing public grievances and actively telling a fellow potential employer, "don't hire this guy?"

I think that I said that I see a difference, and that I think you’ve got things precisely backwards. I also said that I’d be happy to read your explanation to the contrary, which is now on its third vague, “But that’s completely different!” unexplained iteration.

But I’ll continue with my view. Having a private conversation with a fellow captain of industry, when likely specifically asked about my twenty year relationship with my second most famous employee ever, strikes me as far less of a bridge to cross than having my production team film and interview a whole shitload of people so that I could largely say and imply the same things, just in a vastly more public way. If a friend in my profession reaches out to me and says, “Hey, X applied for a role with our company, and I see on LinkedIn that you worked with him for a while; what do you think of him?” I’d be more likely to give a response than I would be to completely independently post about my dispute with the guy publicly on my own LinkedIn page. I care more about my buddy and his professional success and my own public image. If the relationship with the former colleague were so utterly horrible that I were posting about it publicly, I have no idea at all what would stop me from giving my friend the same or an even more specific reaction privately.

The analogy’s far from exact, but that strikes me as the most apt way to view the relative levels of likelihood here. Again, I’d be happy to hear your reasoning to the contrary if you’ve actually got some rather than the conclusory statements and rhetorical questions.

 

[Super Nomario]

yeah mr kraft and bill need to stop blameing each other and blame the bears gm in 2017 or sean payton for not getting mahomes

had mahomes gone anywhere but KC u guys win 1-2 more rings

Mahomes didn't cost the Patriots any rings.

 

[4 6 3 DP]

There are plenty of people in Boston who've done business with rkk who never would again, and I say that respecting the fact that he's a tough, tough businessman not afraid to cut people off to win a deal.

 

[Myt1]

And as someone else mentioned, so does Bill Belichick owe all of his opportunities to his father?

Kyle Shanahan?

Is Sean McDonough only successful because his father was Will?

There are a metric fuckton of millionaire and billionaire donors around here. There's only one Chairman of the Board at one of the top 3 hospitals in the fucking world. But yeah, he got that because he has "no particular skillset."

At what point does a son of a successful person not have to fight off these nonsense claims? Does Dale Earnhardt Jr. lose points as a NASCAR driver because he wouldn't have been one if his dad wasn't the Terminator?

Should we shit on Jayson Tatum and claim that he's nothing without his basketball coach father, who also gave him the genes to be 6'9?

And forget sports and entertainment celebrities. Shit, your thoughts about Kraft should apply to virtually every single kid who's come from a stable family since the dawn of time. If I was born in Venezuela instead of here, and if my father was in prison, I can safely assume I'm not sitting here in my office having a conversation with you folks on Sons of Sam Horn during my work day, while my employees run around doing work. So every opportunity I've had stems from the fact that I had opportunities that most of the planet didn't have, so did you, and I would venture to guess it applies to just about everyone here. Just because Jonathan Kraft had more opportunities than I had doesn't change that calculus in the slightest.

It's nonsense. You're talking about Jonathan Kraft like he's Paris Hilton. Woody Johnson's daughter died of an overdose at 30. It's ridiculous to think that just because they have opportunities that others may not have, that they couldn't also easily squander them away without a fuckton of their own hard work.

And to be clear, I don't like Jonathan Kraft. I think he's an asshole, like @Bleedred does. I've just been pushing back on the idea that this team will be in worse hands under him than it was under his father for reasons that nobody can explain other than he's a rich kid. Clark Hunt is a rich kid too who took over Daddy's team. Seems to be working ok in Kansas City.

If Jonathan Kraft has exactly the same degrees and work experience (so, conceding a fair amount of benefit derived from his family connections already), but isn’t his father’s son, and the Kraft Family’s gifts to Partners don’t add up to about $20 million or so, what are the odds that he’s on their board’s Executive Committee? Is it even one percent? Is it even half a percent?

I know that we’ve had this conversation in other verboten contexts, but I’m always vaguely amused at our different impressions of how board seats work for the children of the rich and famous who work in or near the family business.

 

[cornwalls@6]

Again, I don't see anything revelatory here - I absolutely love BB but I think he'd be a very difficult employee and and even worse boss, especially if the team is struggling.

I'm not in the NFL but in my industry there is well understood language for when someone is problematic. Its rare that someone outright questions someone's integrity - typically you can convey a lot of information with few words. Maybe Kraft did exactly what was reported (I would argue that if you buy it, you have to buy all of Wickersham's reporting including the parts that make the Pats look bad) but this feels like someone between the actual parties to the story and the reporters did some interpretation. But that's just my WAG.

I think we largely agree. I was just taken a back a bit by that reported questioning of his integrity. Big ego, demanding, even arrogant would seem fair game to me in describing Bill honestly to one of the other owners considering hiring him. Integrity feels like a bridge too far. But I agree. Ultimately, this is as likely to be an embellished story as not.

 

[Super Nomario]

I think we largely agree. I was just taken a back a bit by that reported questioning of his integrity. Big ego, demanding, even arrogant would seem fair game to me in describing Bill honestly to one of the other owners considering hiring him. Integrity feels like a bridge too far. But I agree. Ultimately, this is as likely to be an embellished story as not.

The "can't trust" quote is, at best, fifth-hand (as @DennyDoyle'sBoil alluded to above). We just can't take the exact verbiage reported there seriously.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Mahomes didn't cost the Patriots any rings.

I think it's possible that if Mahomes isn't in KC, then Brady sees the AFC as still his best shot to win more rings.

 

[j-man]

Mahomes didn't cost the Patriots any rings.

if he does not go to kc maybe u guys make a super bowl run in 20 21 or 22

 

[Justthetippett]

It's all results based. When things were going well the relationship worked. When things go badly all the insecurities and grievances come out. People are human and flawed. But if Kraft thinks he's going to convince the majority of fans that Bill is to blame for things falling off, he's just not going to get much traction. Shut up and get this turnaround right and people will stop bitching about you and calling Jonathan a nepo-baby.

 

[ObstructedView]

The type of conversation that Kraft seems to have had with Blank doesn't strike me as much different from what commonly occurs among high-level executives in a results-oriented industry. These are people who are making multi-million-dollar decisions, and who are accustomed to having frank discussions. Even at my level of fairly-senior management in the nonprofit sector, I've had many reference-check discussions during which I've extolled the virtues of a former subordinate or colleague but shared caveats about their work style and where I think they might not be the best fit. Of course the national media want to portray the Kraft comments as someone throwing someone else under the bus, but in the end it's all business among grownups and I'm sure BB wouldn't expect anything less. They'll all hug it out when they see each other again, and this will be at most a minor footnote to the story of what they achieved together.

 

[Bowhemian]

if he does not go to kc maybe u guys make a super bowl run in 20 21 or 22

Yeah, no. Those 3 Patriots teams had zero chance of getting to a Super Bowl regardless of wherever Mahomes was playing.

 

[Devizier]

Speaking personally, not looking for heroes in ownership. Kraft kept the team in Massachusetts, hasn't fostered a culture of harassment and abuse like some of his colleagues, and isn't a complete dipshit like Tepper, so that's basically my bar.

 

[rodderick]

It's all results based. When things were going well the relationship worked. When things go badly all the insecurities and grievances come out. People are human and flawed. But if Kraft thinks he's going to convince the majority of fans that Bill is to blame for things falling off, he's just not going to get much traction. Shut up and get this turnaround right and people will stop bitching about you and calling Jonathan a nepo-baby.

I think it's pretty reasonable to lay the "blame" for the team falling off in Bill's lap, though. Who is even in position to be more at fault? It just doesn't mean that gives Robert carte blanche to shit on him in every opportunity he gets, or to try and diminish Bill's contributions to the success the franchise had while elevating his own, but I mean, it kind of was Bill's fault to a significant degree.

 

[Jimbodandy]

He also got plenty of credit, he was universally lauded as one of the best owners. But.... like most people who own a sports franchise he's an egomaniac who wants ALL credit, no blame. He picked Bill, therefore he should get credit for everything good Bill ever did. But.... when Bill doesn't do well, that's on Bill. It is what it is. He's still a solid owner so far even if trending the wrong direction possibly, but also... he seems like a huge asshole, like most people who buy Sports franchises.

That's basically every rich guy alive.

 

[Justthetippett]

I think it's pretty reasonable to lay the "blame" for the team falling off in Bill's lap, though. Who is even in position to be more at fault? It just doesn't mean that gives Robert carte blanche to shit on him in every opportunity he gets, or to try and diminish Bill's contributions to the success the franchise had while elevating his own, but I mean, it kind of was Bill's fault to a significant degree.

I didn't put this clearly but my general point is that if RKK wants credit he has to also shoulder blame. To ride the success of BB when things are going well and shit on him when they aren't will not endear him to anyone.

 

[rodderick]

I didn't put this clearly but my general point is that if RKK wants credit he has to also shoulder blame. To ride the success of BB when things are going well and shit on him when they aren't will not endear him to anyone.

To an extent, but I do feel like most of the credit Kraft is taking ownership of is of the "you guys have no idea how hard it was to manage these egos and keep the band together for that long" variety, and not in terms of football decisions (which were what precipitated their fall). But yeah, he should own the Brady decision or at the very least live with the consequences aside of dumping that all on Bill (and also on Tom).

 

[Deathofthebambino]

If Jonathan Kraft has exactly the same degrees and work experience (so, conceding a fair amount of benefit derived from his family connections already), but isn’t his father’s son, and the Kraft Family’s gifts to Partners don’t add up to about $20 million or so, what are the odds that he’s on their board’s Executive Committee? Is it even one percent? Is it even half a percent?

I know that we’ve had this conversation in other verboten contexts, but I’m always vaguely amused at our different impressions of how board seats work for the children of the rich and famous who work in or near the family business.

My brother's in-laws have made donations to MGH that dwarf the Krafts, even have an entire wing of the hospital named after one of them, none of them have even sniffed a seat on the board, never mind the Chairman's role. I can agree that most of these board positions are likely who he is, but these aren't boards of Sam Adams where the guys are basically glorified taste testers collecting a paycheck. As Chairman of MGH, which combined with Brigham, is the single largest employer in Massachusetts and does like 18 billion in revenue, I would imagine he has a huge role there. Brigham and MGH began their connection like 30 years ago, but Kraft oversaw the rebranding to MGB in 2019, and they have now just begun the process of actually integrating the entire hospital system (specifically the clinical and academic teams) operations into one, which will take years.

He's also literally been running the Pats and Revs as President for decades. Again, nobody disagrees that Jonathan Kraft was given or got to where he is, in large part, because of who his father is, but from where I sit, the guy isn't just some guy riding his dad's coattails. He knows what he's doing, and I think most of the folks that have dealt with him in a professional capacity would agree (although most would also say he's a fucking asshole). Interestingly enough, I think it's the same way most folks outside the locker room, especially the media and opposing teams describe one Bill Belichick.

 

[sezwho]

To an extent, but I do feel like most of the credit Kraft is taking ownership of is of the "you guys have no idea how hard it was to manage these egos and keep the band together for that long" variety, and not in terms of football decisions (which were what precipitated their fall). But yeah, he should own the Brady decision or at the very least live with the consequences aside of dumping that all on Bill (and also on Tom).

I think it was that way, pre documentary. Now, it’s getting rougher by the week for RKK.

When it was an amorphous triumvirate, he could be seen to work in the shadows to smooth things over…which was probably accurate. Now he seems to be grabbing the lions share of credit, which forces the question “Bill coached and Tom played and you…kept payroll low and did real estate development? Thanks?”

I may honestly have been one of his biggest supporters on this board: I believe in the differentiated power of ownership. I give props for the run of Parcells to Carroll to BB (yes plenty of bumps on the way in all cases) and want to believe he’s got a great coach again.

However, he has stopped looking dignified and now looks desperate, and it makes me sad. The bullshit around the players survey comments did more damage to my perception than almost anything. Are you a liar or incompetent now? Wtf? Not great options and I don’t see a third.

 

[rodderick]

I think it was that way, pre documentary. Now, it’s getting rougher by the week for RKK.

When it was an amorphous triumvirate, he could be seen to work in the shadows to smooth things over…which was probably accurate. Now he seems to be grabbing the lions share of credit, which forces the question “Bill coached and Tom played and you…kept payroll low and did real estate development? Thanks?”

I may honestly have been one of his biggest supporters on this board: I believe in the differentiated power of ownership. I give props for the run of Parcells to Carroll to BB (yes plenty of bumps on the way in all cases) and want to believe he’s got a great coach again.

However, he has stopped looking dignified and now looks desperate, and it makes me sad. The bullshit around the players survey comments did more damage to my perception than almost anything. Are you a liar or incompetent now? Wtf? Not great options and I don’t see a third.

Oh, he's been a grade A asshole, I just don't think he's taken credit for personnel moves, draft picks, the roster or any of that.

 

[sezwho]

Oh, he's been a grade A asshole, I just don't think he's taken credit for personnel moves, draft picks, the roster or any of that.

Good distinction: he’s not taking direct responsibility for football decisions, in fact if anything he’s continued to try and distance the family from that side.

To me he seems to be trying to position himself not just as peer, but as above the other two somehow and transcending them. The bit about him ‘keeping an eye on Bill’ after the benching in Super Bowl just seems like delusions of grandeur somehow. Like what are you going to do?

Then again, I guess what he was going to do was ultimately hamstring Bill by hiring his successor while he was still HCP..

 

[rodderick]

Good distinction: he’s not taking direct responsibility for football decisions, in fact if anything he’s continued to try and distance the family from that side.

To me he seems to be trying to position himself not just as peer, but as above the other two somehow and transcending them. The bit about him ‘keeping an eye on Bill’ after the benching in Super Bowl just seems like delusions of grandeur somehow. Like what are you going to do?

Then again, I guess what he was going to do was ultimately hamstring Bill by hiring his successor while he was still HCP..

Exactly, the whole tone has been "well, you guys have given all the credit to these two geniuses, but they were also huge schmucks who would've self combusted without my presence as the adult in the room". It's so condescending and transparently self-aggrandizing.

 

[Myt1]

My brother's in-laws have made donations to MGH that dwarf the Krafts, even have an entire wing of the hospital named after one of them, none of them have even sniffed a seat on the board, never mind the Chairman's role. I can agree that most of these board positions are likely who he is, but these aren't boards of Sam Adams where the guys are basically glorified taste testers collecting a paycheck. As Chairman of MGH, which combined with Brigham, is the single largest employer in Massachusetts and does like 18 billion in revenue, I would imagine he has a huge role there. Brigham and MGH began their connection like 30 years ago, but Kraft oversaw the rebranding to MGB in 2019, and they have now just begun the process of actually integrating the entire hospital system (specifically the clinical and academic teams) operations into one, which will take years.

He's also literally been running the Pats and Revs as President for decades. Again, nobody disagrees that Jonathan Kraft was given or got to where he is, in large part, because of who his father is, but from where I sit, the guy isn't just some guy riding his dad's coattails. He knows what he's doing, and I think most of the folks that have dealt with him in a professional capacity would agree (although most would also say he's a fucking asshole). Interestingly enough, I think it's the same way most folks outside the locker room, especially the media and opposing teams describe one Bill Belichick.

So, like half a percent?

Would we recognize your brothers-in-law’s names the same way that we recognize Kraft’s?

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

I think it's pretty reasonable to lay the "blame" for the team falling off in Bill's lap, though. Who is even in position to be more at fault? It just doesn't mean that gives Robert carte blanche to shit on him in every opportunity he gets, or to try and diminish Bill's contributions to the success the franchise had while elevating his own, but I mean, it kind of was Bill's fault to a significant degree.

I couldn't co-sign HARDER on this. Love Bill, GOAT HC, think Kraft has handled the departure pretty poorly since the farewell presser, but MAN so many often predictably terrible decisions were made over the last decade, basically all of which were Bill's fault more than anyone's. N'Keal Harry over AJ Brown (and all the dominos that fell as a result), Cole Strange, Tiquan, BRADY LEAVING, not just surrounding him with weapons (especially after seeing how dominant the team could be with guys like Welker and Moss) and going full bore offense as often as possible since 2007, not stepping off the gas a bit wrt TB12, refusing to trade Jimmy G in a timely manner (when he likely would have gotten more than a paltry 2nd round pick), drafting a rookie QB and not INSTANTLY surrounding him with even one elite WR for any part of that valuable rookie contract. There's a lot of stuff that went wrong, and it's pretty much all on Bill. So, yes, he gets the blame, just like he got oodles of credit for his amazing, unprecedented successes.

edit typos

 

[The Napkin]

My brother's in-laws have made donations to MGH that dwarf the Krafts, even have an entire wing of the hospital named after one of them, none of them have even sniffed a seat on the board, never mind the Chairman's role. I can agree that most of these board positions are likely who he is, but these aren't boards of Sam Adams where the guys are basically glorified taste testers collecting a paycheck. As Chairman of MGH, which combined with Brigham, is the single largest employer in Massachusetts and does like 18 billion in revenue, I would imagine he has a huge role there. Brigham and MGH began their connection like 30 years ago, but Kraft oversaw the rebranding to MGB in 2019, and they have now just begun the process of actually integrating the entire hospital system (specifically the clinical and academic teams) operations into one, which will take years.

(and is going terribly fwiw)

 

[Van Everyman]

One thing we should account for: by the time the documentary was made, Brady had made his peace with the whole experience. He’d moved on, won without the Patriots. He could afford to be magnanimous. Kraft and Belichick, by contrast, were still in the last chapter of their relationship. So one guy chose to say nothing, the other blabbed. It is what it is.

One thing in Kraft’s favor according to the Dynasty book: he actually started writing in to contracts back in the 90s that players had to give X amount of their contract to charity. Which Benedict acknowledged was not necessarily even allowed and Parcells hated it because he thought it made it harder to recruit FAs to NE.

I know everyone does their charity piece for PR now and I’m sure Myra was at least partly if not entirely behind it but that in itself is def. a massive positive.

 

[Justthetippett]

One thing we should account for: by the time the documentary was made, Brady had made his peace with the whole experience. He’d moved on, won without the Patriots. He could afford to be magnanimous. Kraft and Belichick, by contrast, were still in the last chapter of their relationship. So one guy chose to say nothing, the other blabbed. It is what it is.

One thing in Kraft’s favor according to the Dynasty book: he actually started writing in to contracts back in the 90s that players had to give X amount of their contract to charity. Which Benedict acknowledged was not necessarily even allowed and Parcells hated it because he thought it made it harder to recruit FAs to NE.

I know everyone does their charity piece for PR now and I’m sure Myra was at least partly if not entirely behind it but that in itself is def. a massive positive.

It's obviously not the worst thing, but I'm not sure I'd put that Kraft's column as a positive. Players have short careers and literally risk their lives to play. Mandatory time commitments to charity would be one thing, but requirements for $ contributions is a bit much for me. Kraft is welcome to contribute an equivalent portion of the salaries he pays to charity.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

(and is going terribly fwiw)

Of that, I have no doubt. Thats a massive change, I imagine it'll be brutal for a while for folks in the middle of it.

 

[jcd0805]

They'll all hug it out when they see each other again, and this will be at most a minor footnote to the story of what they achieved together.

Sadly I doubt this.

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

Seems at least mildly amusing that Wolf has directly contradicted Kraft's stated reasons that losing out on Ridley wasn't about the money.