Are we really going there already? This is the NFL. Tampa isn't historically good and the Pats aren't historically bad. I wouldn't expect a massive blowout, regardless of how bad the Pats looked today.
The Game Goat Thread: Wk. 3 vs Saints
- Thread starter SeoulSoxFan
- Start date
Three calls really stood out to me. I think Jeff Howe might have covered this too but: Down 21-6 in the red zone they run back to back runs with Bolden. That lead to 3rd and 11 for Mac. You can't do that. I don't know if McDaniel's called it or Mac checked into it but that's a WTF moment. On a crucial 3rd and 1 down 21-3 and driving they run Bolden behind Herron for a stuff. I just don't get it. Bolden doesn't need reps in the red zone. He had some last week or the week before too - made no sense then or now. You want to give him some reps early in the series, cool - but not on critical plays or when they are in scoring position. I get that White was out and none of the guys they have can be receivers (I guess) but in that case use a different concept.
I am very interested to see how much this team improves over the year. BB teams are known for playing their best football in December and January. The 2019 team was a turkey down the stretch and last years' team was in the playoff hunt until 3 straight December losses. BB is 12-16 since starting 8-0 in 2019.
I think the spirit of what you said is dead on but I would definitely charity bet against the Steelers, Dolphins, Eagles, and Patriots making the playoffs (assuming they lose tomorrow). The rest of them have a chance. Chiefs and SEA definitely, MIN and DAL (if they lose) probably, and maybe even MIN I'd expect to make the playoffs or be in the hunt. Some 1-2 teams are actually bad. I think roughly half of them are in the example above. Again I agree with what you are saying and it is way too early to bury anyone but on the other hand I do think some of these teams you listed have serious systemic issues and won't be in the hunt. YMMV.
Kind of reminds me of:
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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M
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I choose to believe.
One thing that someone said on a podcast (maybe Lazar?) was that we are comparing this Patriots team to what we've seen for the last 20 years, and that's really not fair to them. Everything we are used to is under the umbrella of having the GOAT under center.
This year is going to flip between a lot of hope and some really bad afternoons. You don't really have bridge years in football, but it's kind of what we have. We're going to have 17 games of seeing what plays work for Mac.
That penalty absolutely did not hurt them... because a Pats lineman also held on the same play.
What they did well, I thought, was get a lot of pressure on Winston. Although not on the first and last drives.
Our in-house orthopedist thought that White might be done.
View: https://twitter.com/ChrisGearyOrtho/status/1442187697871798272?s=20
@ChrisGearyOrtho
Gotta think that James White probably fractured his acetabulum (same injury Tua had in college). For a running back his age, that’s likely a career-ender. Which SUCKS.
I was texting with my brother watching the game - we both had the same thought: Bailey's kickoffs keep going out of bounds while his punts reach the end zone.
It is honestly hard for me to say how bad Mac was or wasn't, especially the deep throws: several were hurried, one was thrown to a different place than where the receiver went (making it difficult to know which of them was to blame), and the late game ones were in desperation mode. I also couldn't tell what the deal was with the first pick - the pass looked like a wounded duck, so I thought Mac got hit during his throw. All those passes to Jonnu Smith were not well placed for Smith. He still should have fucking Caught a couple of them but they weren't great.
Mac ran the ball 6 times for 28 yards and showed some good sense in doing it. He was smart enough to take the yards that were there, to slide rather than running into a huge hit, and for the first time we've seen him running the QB sneak which he did well.
All in all, I will have to withhold judgment until people who know what they are talking about review the all 22. Probably his worst game of the 3, but he was once again hung out to dray by his OL and the only time all season he has really been able to perform has been those rare times when the line did its job..
The Pats are reeling and Brady will absolutely be coming in fired up. A blowout is not a c ertainty - BB also has got to be fired up about this one - but it is a realistic possibility.
Isn't Bolden in there because, sans White, he is the must trusted back for blitz pickup? No, that doesn't even begin to explain why he's getting 3 carries in key spots - for a total of -1 yard).
Yeah, Mac hasn't really kept up his level of performance from week one, but he was the best rookie QB then, he was the best rookie QB last week, and he was the best rookie QB this week. As far as bright sides go, "best rookie QB so far without much contest" isn't the worst one to look on. I'm no longer thinking that this team has a reasonable shot at the playoffs, but the worst thing for its long term prognosis is looking like the ~30 million per annum locked up in Smith and Henry for the next three years, and that's probably an overreaction to the short season so far.
I think Harris is their best pass pro back right now. Bolden > JJT though and he was the only other guy. It is also possible that Harris, who had a bum finger, was not 100% and they needed to sub him out. But like you said that doesn't mean you use Bolden that many times.
Seeing people get this crazy after 3 weeks makes it seem like people have never watched football before. The 2018 pats were 1-2 and got smoked by the fucking Lions in week 3. 2017 pats got smoked by KC in week 1 and were 2-2. It's a small sample size, early in the season you can hide your weaknesses better, etc. Give it until about week 6 before you start really judging where teams are.
It is just a really boring team. Not just scheme-wise. They don’t have a single player right now who I would say is top 5 at their position in the league. They have a lot of guys who are above-average or average. But there’s no one you have to game-plan around, and their scheme isn’t innovative enough to make up for it. We’ll see if they grow in complexity with so many new players, but it’s just a team that is going to fall between 7-10 and 10-7 depending on how the breaks go unless they start to find some creativity and execute better. They’re not bad, they’re not good. They’re just boring.
I agree with this generally but in those days you had to prove to me that the Pats weren’t a contender. Now you have to prove to me that aren’t just mediocre. Not saying they can’t get better, and some struggles are expected with a rookie QB. But I don’t think there’s any reason to believe they are good, and it isn’t like they have a ton of young talent to be excited about.
Fully agree with this - this is the team that made "On to Cincinnati" famous after getting smoked by the Chiefs to go to 2-2 after week 4 (plus our annual WTF loss to Miami). I'm willing to give them a number of weeks to get all the parts to work, including a rookie QB. Its going to be hard in the hot take world we live in.
My biggest concern is the line and the lack of a consistent running game early on which is really hurting the offense.
This is the way I would describe Clemson this year, adding in a QB that isn‘t making quick enough reads. Just flat out boring.
I almost had a stroke listening to the back-to-bqck Bolden carries on the radio. Reading between the lines on the post-game comments, I am guessing Mac audibled. Not smart.
I agree with this. The D was good today. The Saints didn't have a 20-yard gain all game. They had two bad drives - unfortunately one of them was at the end when the O had finally shown any signs of life. Other than that, they locked down the Saints.
It is pretty frustrating that they spent all this money on O and drafted a QB in the first and it still looks like the same shitty O we saw in the back half of 2019 and throughout 2020. Jonnu, Henry, and Agholor were overpaid relative to their career accomplishments, and so far they're living up to history rather than their contracts.
Mac wasn't as bad as his line looked, but this was a game where we needed more from the QB than to manage the game, and he couldn't make any plays. He had a bunch of pass attempts downfield where the window was small and he couldn't connect. They weren't really throws he should have made, but if he had made a couple, it might have been a different ballgame. He wound up 3 for 16 on passes over 15 yards.
I'm not surprised the run game struggled, but it was truly dreadful. Harris, Bolden, and Taylor combined for 10 carries for 15 yards and zero first downs. Losing White, who might be our best skill player on O, sucks.
OL and Josh.
Josh needs to coach the team he has, which is one with a terrible OL, not the one he thought he had.
Stevenson needs to play, Bolden needs to sit and the scheme needs a redo. Mac can't keep getting hit 20 times a game, this has to be changed asap.
Josh needs to coach the team he has, which is one with a terrible OL, not the one he thought he had.
Stevenson needs to play, Bolden needs to sit and the scheme needs a redo. Mac can't keep getting hit 20 times a game, this has to be changed asap.
They're starting a rookie QB. They're mediocre. We need to stop comparing them to the Pats of the last 20 years.
We are a team that is undergoing a massive makeover, with a rookie QB and lots of new faces. When you have that, you have games like we've seen the first few weeks---a loss because of a late mistake, then what happened today. The playcalling has been suspect, but everyone has to find their footing.
People need to readjust their baseline to this being a mediocre team. A team that isn't yet able to win games when they make multiple mistakes.
I think, as a fanbase, we just don't know how to watch and evaluate this. I choose to think that today we played badly, yet continued to battle.
Defensive play-calling. Per Lazar:
They sent an extra rusher on 8 of 26 drop-backs, ~31% and when they did Wilson had a QB rating of 33.8. The Saints OL had issues last week and this week dealing with blitzers. At one point they were down 2/5 OL and only 2 guys playing in their original position. Where were all the exotic rushes and fronts? They used some but not enough. Panthers blitzed them 39% of the time last week. As Lazar pointed out on crucial third and longs on their final TD drive the Pats didn't blitz, got 0 pressure and Wilson was able to get to his read for a first down. You're losing 21-13 - maybe do the thing that has been working all day?
They sent an extra rusher on 8 of 26 drop-backs, ~31% and when they did Wilson had a QB rating of 33.8. The Saints OL had issues last week and this week dealing with blitzers. At one point they were down 2/5 OL and only 2 guys playing in their original position. Where were all the exotic rushes and fronts? They used some but not enough. Panthers blitzed them 39% of the time last week. As Lazar pointed out on crucial third and longs on their final TD drive the Pats didn't blitz, got 0 pressure and Wilson was able to get to his read for a first down. You're losing 21-13 - maybe do the thing that has been working all day?
To justify a team-building philosophy that includes having siginficantly more S/T ONLY guys than average, your special teams need to be profoundly exceptional. Game changingly so. Games like today, and all season, really, are infuriating in that respect.
They didn’t spend $163 million or whatever it was this past offseason just to be mediocre. They are supposed to be good
So far they’ve been very very disappointing. Poor play calling, poor execution, poor fundamentals, boring to watch. It’s like Dick MacPherson is the coach again.
I’d seriously think about firing McDaniels. He’s actively hamstringing the offense. Those calls aren’t just failing, they make zero objective sense.
I’d also seriously argue against the idea that the defense was good today. It was most assuredly not. They needed a stop after pulling within 8 and allowed a 7 minute TD drive where they got blasted off the field. That’s about as soft a defense as can possibly be imagined. They were terrible. That wasn’t a battle. That was a bloodbath.
I expected hiccups with so many new players but I certainly didn’t expect abject non-competitiveness. They’re further away today from being a decent team than they were all of last year. It’s extremely discouraging. And Tampa is next up.
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Mac looks like a good rookie qb with a lot of room to learn and grow. He doesn’t look great, but he looks like someone with a bright future. If the rest of the team were ok , we’d be competitive and we’d get better as he learns. The problem is h the rest of the team looks bad.
I think there were/are so many holes on this roster that spending that money has to be seen as plugging some of the holes, but not nearly all of them. And I’m as down on McDaniels work today as anyone, but the idea he should be FIRED for it, or even for this season so far, is beneath the level of what SOSH is supposed to be, compared to other message boards.
Seriously. Firing Josh would probably be one of the top 3 worst moves they could make, along with firing BB and trading Mac.
He does look better if you stack him up against his fellow first round picks.
- Mac Jones: 30/51 for 270 yeards and 1 TD/3 picks
- Zach Wilson: 19/35 for 160 yards and 2 picks, as the Jets were shut out by Denver
- Trevor Lawrence: 22/34 for 219 yards and 1 TD/2 picks as Jaguars lost to Arizona
- Josh Fields: 6/20 for 68 yards as Bears lost 26-6 to Cleveland
- Trey Lance: not playing
The question is whether McDaniels is capable of play calling to allow Jones to thrive. Early results are a definite no. Using Bolden more than Harris? Mac throwing the ball to get into the red zone only to then switch to toss plays and runs by a 4th string RB? Where is the use of the uptempo offense? When they’ve used it they’ve looked good, but they rarely do and instead plod along. It’s hard to watch.
He’s been dreadful and I don’t think that’s in much disagreement. He has no feel for game situations. His red zone play calls have actively harmed the team. The development of your next franchise QB is in his hands and this is what he comes up with? You bet I’d think about firing him.
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Some of it might be the difficulties of integrating a bunch of new guys into the team. New QB, 2 new TEs, 2 new WRs. The OL is all guys who have been here, but the best player on last year's OL (Thuney) is gone.
Here are the players Mac has targeted the most so far:
1. Meyers: 29 (19 catches)
2. Agholor: 18 (10 catches) new
3. Smith: 16 (10 catches) new
4. White: 14 (12 catches) likely gone
5. Bourne: 14 (9 catches) new
6. Henry: 13 (10 catches) new
The defense was, for the most part, very good today. They had two bad drives. Unfortunately, one of them was the knockout punch for the Saints. But you have to look at the whole game, and they were solid defensively on the whole.
Non-competitiveness?
They were a fumble away from a likely win (or late lead if you want to be ornery) and despite the crap today they got back into the game--a game where the opponent was gifted a pick 6 and had a 10 yard TD drive. They didn't play well, but they were not non-competitive.
Hard disagree.
Oh, and if we're that bad, as we keep hearing, then Mac Jones is IMPRESSIVE AF for putting up these numbers on a "bad team".
So, if a lot of folks want to ride the "Pats aren't good train" then please get off the "Mac's numbers are better because he's playing for a good team!" train.
So, if a lot of folks want to ride the "Pats aren't good train" then please get off the "Mac's numbers are better because he's playing for a good team!" train.
Timing matters. Like the Miami game, with a chance to turn the tide, get a stop and get the ball back, the defense collapsed. That’s a poor performance.
They just needed one stop. Instead they got pushed all the way down the field for seven straight game minutes.
God, watching Rodgers have time to cook a goddamn roast chicken in the pocket right now, and Brady and Stafford both having just all day to wait for receivers to get open, makes me unreasonably upset... and also really hesitant to blame the coaching like some of you, on the offensive side of the ball. It's incredibly difficult to have "good playcalling" when almost every play, even play action, is resulting in pressure and, more importantly, I'm pretty sure they actually did make a change to the scheme that was really effective. The offense had bad luck and a few headscratchers that might have been Jones checking down into a run for some reason in the second half, but overall I thought it was actually moving the ball pretty well ever since the field goal drive before the half; it just ran out of time and, again, had bad luck with stuff like Jonnu's crime against humanity. I would love to see the numbers on changes in personnel frequencies to see if my hypothesis is bullshit or not.
Do you A. call up your coordinator and tell him "hey, dumbfuck, don't call those runs to Bolden on first and ten," or B. fire him and replace him with some other dude. Now, both might be viable options. But there are a lot of NFL coaches/OCs out there who do the exact same thing sometimes. It's hard to find those that don't. So, would someone else be an improvement? Who? I've seen Matt LaFleur go with very weird playcalls like that. So, if you're in charge, you can't really feel confident that you'll get a guy who is both generally capable of the job and who wouldn't go with questionable pass/run choices sometimes. You could bring someone in who agrees to do so, but if you had the ability to force your OC to make the correct call, you might as well do that with your current one and not have to fire a coach in the middle of the season.
If you want to talk about how the playcalling has been so terrible, identify how it's been terrible without looking at results (i.e., pick apart the process, which you can absolutely do with stuff like those running calls today), and suggests how to improve.
An obvious thing is that other teams seem to be blitzing a lot and for one reason or another the Patriots haven't been able to beat those blitzes; they get through too fast and nobody gets open in time. My hunch, thus far unsupported by tape analysis or numbers so I fully admit that it could be completely off-base, is that the Saints today and probably the other two teams we've faced have been blitzing specifically against 12 personnel; if this is true, then other hunch about how the second half's offense was so much improved over the first half today, namely by going mainly to 3WR groupings, is actually an endorsement of the coaching staff, because that would mean they identified what was going on and changed things up to make things easier for Jones to thrive.
There's some evidence to think that Jones checked down into those terrible runs; he seemed to imply as much himself. But let's say that's not the case, that it was McDaniels's call, and you're the person in charge of team decision making. Your offensive coordinator has just made some very questionable decisions about running the ball on early downs in situation where he should not have done that. Outside of that, the offense generally has well-designed plays, makes plenty of use of play action, and generally, from a design standpoint, is pretty solid, and it additionally appears that your coaches were able to recognize something that was going wrong in the first half of the game and switched to a different, much more effective strategy.
Do you A. call up your coordinator and tell him "hey, dumbfuck, don't call those runs to Bolden on first and ten," or B. fire him and replace him with some other dude. Now, both might be viable options. But there are a lot of NFL coaches/OCs out there who do the exact same thing sometimes. It's hard to find those that don't. So, would someone else be an improvement? Who? I've seen Matt LaFleur go with very weird playcalls like that. So, if you're in charge, you can't really feel confident that you'll get a guy who is both generally capable of the job and who wouldn't go with questionable pass/run choices sometimes. You could bring someone in who agrees to do so, but if you had the ability to force your OC to make the correct call, you might as well do that with your current one and not have to fire a coach in the middle of the season.
If you want to talk about how the playcalling has been so terrible, identify how it's been terrible without looking at results (i.e., pick apart the process, which you can absolutely do with stuff like those running calls today), and suggests how to improve.
An obvious thing is that other teams seem to be blitzing a lot and for one reason or another the Patriots haven't been able to beat those blitzes; they get through too fast and nobody gets open in time. My hunch, thus far unsupported by tape analysis or numbers so I fully admit that it could be completely off-base, is that the Saints today and probably the other two teams we've faced have been blitzing specifically against 12 personnel; if this is true, then other hunch about how the second half's offense was so much improved over the first half today, namely by going mainly to 3WR groupings, is actually an endorsement of the coaching staff, because that would mean they identified what was going on and changed things up to make things easier for Jones to thrive.
i think a ton of us agree with the stuff you’re pointing out that happened today. It was terrible, indefensible. (Though I’ve read that a couple of the Bolden runs were Mac’s fault, audibling out to them.) So, yes, we’re with you. Right up to the point where you suggest it is remotely reasonable to consider FIRING him for it. I would try some deep, calming breaths, possibly a cup of cocoa or something stiffer.
This team clearly misses N’Keal Harry…
For real though, I am so disappointed in the OL. I know Brown has been out but the entire unit is just a gigantic mess. There is literally no path for success for this team with the OL in its current form and I really fear for Mac next week against a pissed off and aggressive Tampa front 7. These guys might literally get our QB injured at this rate.
Jonnu was just so bad. I certainly hope this is a hiccup because he was unspeakably bad today. Our WR group continues to not be that impressive. There isn’t a single guy you need to worry about. And the TEs aren’t really causing any mismatches either.
The defense hasn’t been as good as I hope but they’ve been decent enough. They’re also missing their best player who’ll hopefully come back at some point. Barmore is one of the few bright spots there. We need more difference makers. Judon has been as advertised, which is good.
For real though, I am so disappointed in the OL. I know Brown has been out but the entire unit is just a gigantic mess. There is literally no path for success for this team with the OL in its current form and I really fear for Mac next week against a pissed off and aggressive Tampa front 7. These guys might literally get our QB injured at this rate.
Jonnu was just so bad. I certainly hope this is a hiccup because he was unspeakably bad today. Our WR group continues to not be that impressive. There isn’t a single guy you need to worry about. And the TEs aren’t really causing any mismatches either.
The defense hasn’t been as good as I hope but they’ve been decent enough. They’re also missing their best player who’ll hopefully come back at some point. Barmore is one of the few bright spots there. We need more difference makers. Judon has been as advertised, which is good.
That was the worst special teams game I can remember in the Belichick era… penalties in the return game, penalties in the kick game (even from Ensign Cardona) clueless punting, a blocked punt. Embarrassing.
u are looking at a 2-4 start and 0-4 home start yes dallas coach is dumb but that team can put up 30 on anyone even denver
i feel to make the playoffs every AFC team ex the south champ is going to have to win 10 games
i can see u winning 9 games
TB L
@ Hou W
Dal L
NYJ W
@LAC W
@ CAR L
CLE L
@ ATL W
Tenn W
@ BUFF L
@ INDY W
BUFF L
JAX W
@ MIA L
goats are smith TE your run def and O-Line
i feel to make the playoffs every AFC team ex the south champ is going to have to win 10 games
i can see u winning 9 games
TB L
@ Hou W
Dal L
NYJ W
@LAC W
@ CAR L
CLE L
@ ATL W
Tenn W
@ BUFF L
@ INDY W
BUFF L
JAX W
@ MIA L
goats are smith TE your run def and O-Line
I think you have to give Mac Jones post game comments very little weight when you see stuff like this - he isn’t going throw anybody under the bus, including McDaniels. Every comment I’ve seen from him post game has been him taking all the blame even for stuff that clearly isn’t his responsibility
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/McKennAnalysis/status/1442232115031015426
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/McKennAnalysis/status/1442232115031015426
I think you miscounted, that only adds up to 8 wins.
It's pretty optimistic to think they win at the Chargers at this point - I'd have them getting to 7 myself.
He let him play with the Rams game over and he took a big hit.
So yeah, he'll play 4 quarters.
The defense played a good game that was one stop away from being an excellent game. They held Kamara to less than four yards per carry and made him work for everything he got. They held Winston to six yards per pass attempt. The loss is 100% on the offense, which handed the Saints more points (14) than they scored themselves (13).
And with the game on the line, when a stop of any kind gets then the chance to tie the game, they allowed a backbreaking 7 min TD drive where the Saints were never seriously threatened with not scoring.
The defense was poor today for that drive alone.
That's really not how football works, you also absolutely needed a stop on the previous 3 possessions, which they got. If giving up 1 scoring drive for the entire second half of a game is poor defense then there are no good defenses in the league. THis is like complaining about the pitching in a 2-1 loss because they gave up a HR in the 8th when you were down 1-0 and then you could only score 1 in the 9th.
This game was lost because our offense was absolute garbage and wasted a solid defensive performance, same as week 1. This is a good not great defense, and a (at least for now) very bad offense.