The Bottom of the Rotation

grimshaw

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Assuming the Sox add two starters over the winter, who would you prefer to see in the 5 spot?
 
-Another free agent or trade acquisition?
or
-An internal option such as Webster, Barnes, De La Rosa, Henry, Renaudo or Wright?
What would you like to see and how do you think it will shake out?
 

czar

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Not that I'm advocating penciling them for anything more than high-upside lottery tickets, but would love to take low guarantee, incentive-laden fliers on either Kris Medlen or Brandon Beachy (both coming off TJS, both non-tendered by ATL today).

Medlen in particular could be an interesting swing-type piece if healthy (and until his elbow tries to detach again).
 

Mighty Joe Young

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I'd like to see Webster out of the chute .. But the main thing is to reserve a place for the home grown talent. The Sox have seven or eight SP candidates. Sooner or later at least one of these guys have to break through.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I'd prefer two new additions (Lester & ?) to top the rotation.  Clay and Kelly in the 3/4 spots, not neccesarily respectively and for whoever remains in the Barnes/RDLR/Webster/Ranaudo/Workman group to battle it out, as I'm sure two of them will be somewhere else and for the others to start in AAA or the bullpen (Workman!).
 

TigerBlood

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They're gonna let the kids fight for that 5th spot. They're (probably) investing a lot of money into the new top two guys, and its a huge waste of resources to just let Workman, RDLR, Webster, Ranaudo, Barnes all flounder in AAA/mop-up/injury depth positions. I really hope one or two of them step up this year and we have some healthy in-house competition between those guys and Kelly and Buchholz.
 

circus catch

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I agree with the crowd.  Let the kids fight it out in spring training.  If you're not going to give them even one spot why do you keep accumulating them? I would be shocked if the Sox sign three starters.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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circus catch said:
I agree with the crowd.  Let the kids fight it out in spring training.  If you're not going to give them even one spot why do you keep accumulating them? I would be shocked if the Sox sign three starters.
Exactly. Hard to break in the young guys if they have no spot. And we have lots to choose from.
 

Rasputin

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Of the guys who are ready to go on opening day, I go with Webster just because I think he has both the highest upside and the best chance of hitting it.
 

lxt

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Rasputin said:
Of the guys who are ready to go on opening day, I go with Webster just because I think he has both the highest upside and the best chance of hitting it.
I agree. His last four outings were all improvements on the first few. The last outing even Farrell was impressed. The others seemed to go in the other direction. I really can't remember how Ranaudo did. I agree that letting the "kids" fight it out for the last spot is essential. Why else would the Sox have all the prospects if they don't give them a chance.
 

phenweigh

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I'm normally not one who thinks a spring training competition is a good idea, but for choosing between RDLR, Webster, etc for fifth starter, it's probably the way to go.
 

grimshaw

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In order of likelihood I'd put it as Webster, Barnes or Owens.  Webster's probably the favorite until he shits the bed.  Barnes should get a long look and have every reason to win the job.  Owens wins if he dominates the field.  BC has said before that once anyone hits AAA they are essentially big league ready and waiting for a spot. 
 
In order of likelihood of them being traded, I'd put it as Barnes, Webster and Owens.  My reasoning is that most of the trade targets are one year out from free agency, and none of them should require Owens.  I could see  him tn a deal for Ross, Latos or the Chris Sale pipe dream.
 
I like Wright as the swing guy and to save arms from puddinizing.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Farrell was very deliberate about putting RDLR out there every fifth day at the end of the season to keep him in a routine, even while acknowledging that his outings were going to be shorter because he was really piling up the innings.  Suggests to me that he's the nominal #5, going into spring training, anyways.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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Hey, some mod took my picture of a Steel Cage Match out of here but I feel it was a legitimate (and fun) way to make the point that all of the young guys should battle it out in Spring Training and whoever is pitching the best and controlling their pitches the best should win the #5 spot.  I did this with one simple visual - a steel cage match where the best man wins.  I'm going to get a can of gas and pour NO FUN on whomever's lawn deleted my post.
 

Reverend

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Hee Sox Choi said:
Hey, some mod took my picture of a Steel Cage Match out of here but I feel it was a legitimate (and fun) way to make the point that all of the young guys should battle it out in Spring Training and whoever is pitching the best and controlling their pitches the best should win the #5 spot.  I did this with one simple visual - a steel cage match where the best man wins.  I'm going to get a can of gas and pour NO FUN on whomever's lawn deleted my post.
 
You thought that meaning was clear from "Spring Training" followed by a guy jumping from the top of a steel cage into the ring?

I like the picture-speaks-1000-words style post as much as anyone and usually quite a bit more, but that was entirely unclear. We are not in any way anti-humor in the attempt to clean things up--frankly, humor that is on point makes for some of the best posts--but the humorist is always responsible for the audience getting it, yeah?
 
I'm open to correction if I learn that this was a somehow obvious joke and I just whiffed--but for the love of God, please nobody turn this thread into that discussion. :)
 
Edit: Royal Rumble or something would have made a lot more sense, by the way.
 

jasail

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IMO, it's going to go to an internal candidate: Workman, Webster, RDLR, Ranaudo, Wright, Barnes, and Owens. I don't see what the point is in carrying these seven guys on the 40 man roster if they are not going to be used on the 25-man roster. Even if they trade one or two and bring one or two on to up to Boston, they still have plenty of organizational depth. So, I don't see the Sox investing additional resources for another more "established" arm with some type of risk (e.g., injury, recent ineffectiveness) to take that roster spot and potentially add to the existing redundancy. So, IMO, it's a matter of determining which arm is best suited for the job.
 
According to Sox Prospects, each of the potential internal candidates have options remaining, so that is not be a limiting factor. Therefore, it likely comes down to development and potential, and to a lesser extent ST performance. As I can only speculate in ST performance, I won't review it.
 
Development
Barnes and Owens likely benefit the most from continuing their development at AAA, as both really need to work on honing the command/control and improving their 3rd pitch. Webster and RDLR are further along in their development than Owens and Barnes and may benefit some from additional time in the minors to improve their command/control. Workman and Wright more or less are what they are at this point and probably either best off on the 25 man roster or in AAA as the first man up.  
 
Potential
While Owens and Barnes may have the highest ceilings of this group over the long run, it's doubtful that they will be the most advanced pitchers in the group come April 1 and for them to be able to begin to reach their potential they need further development. Workman and Wright have the lowest ceilings of the group. Wright may turn into a successful knuckleballer, but that likely means his ceiling is a reliable #4 pitcher. Workman, particularly if he continues to struggle to maintain his velocity deep into games, likely has the ceiling of a reliable #5 starter. RDLR and Webster have the potential to be solid 2/3 starters if they can harness their stuff and become consistent. 
 
Analysis
To continue their development, Barnes and Owens head back to Pawtucket where they anchor the AAA rotation and work on their control/command and 3rd pitch. Workman ends up in the bullpen. He was previously successful in a bullpen role and his stuff plays up there; I could see him being a steady 7th inning guy. I see Wright best fit for a role as a swing man/spot starter (knuckler w/rubber arm) or as the 1st man up in the case of injury to a starter (allows Barnes, Owens to not be rushed up). So, accordingly, and not surprisingly, the decision ultimately comes down to RDLR and Webster.
 
Conclusion
IMO, based on last year, it's RDLR's job to lose. However, if he struggles and Webster demonstrates that his last 4 starts last year are where he is trending towards then he may take that spot. If RDLR takes the 5th rotation spot, then Wright becomes the 7th man in the pen and serves as your long man and spot starter. If Webster takes the 5th spot in the rotation the RDLR goes to the pen where he works towards becoming a setup man/closer and Wright goes to AAA and is the first man up on the Pawtucket to Boston express. 
 
Edit: I forgot to review Ranaudo in this post. IMO, he's best off on another team, specifically one with a big ball park. His fly ball tendencies and inability to throw down hill and work the bottom of the zone lead me to believe he's never going to be all that successful - as a reliever or a starter - in the AL East considering the ball flies out of the park in Baltimore, New York, Boston and Toronto. 
 

Savin Hillbilly

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lxt said:
I agree. His last four outings were all improvements on the first few. The last outing even Farrell was impressed. The others seemed to go in the other direction. I really can't remember how Ranaudo did. I agree that letting the "kids" fight it out for the last spot is essential. Why else would the Sox have all the prospects if they don't give them a chance.
 
Fortunately this is a take-home exam. ;)
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ranauan01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=ranauan01&t=p&year=2014
 
The answer is that he did pretty terribly--too many walks, too few strikeouts, and a fairly obscene number of HR allowed--but he did finish strong with a nice 7-inning, two-run start vs. TB. I assume he'll be back in AAA to start the year.
 
I think the slot (assuming there's just one) is Rubby's to lose unless they move him to the pen. But if Rubby flounders in ST and Webster looks strong they might go that way. I think they'll start Barnes in AAA or the pen. Workman is probably headed directly to the pen. And of course it's highly likely one of these guys is moved over the coming weeks, perhaps as added value in a Cespedes trade.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Rudy Pemberton said:
I think it's clear that Ranaudo, Barnes, Owens, Rodriguez, etc. start the season in AAA or are traded.

The final slot (although, couldn't there be two?) comes down to Workman, Webster, and RDLR. There seems to be this consensus that Workman is clearly a starter, and RDLR is a starter and I think that's premature.

FIP: Webster RDLR 4.30, 4.35, Workman 4.44
BB/9: RDLR 3.1, Workman 3.7, Webster 4.3
K/9: Webster 5.5, RDLR 6.6, Workman 7.2

RDLR gave up an opposing line of 293 / 349 / 465; compared to 263 / 333 / 415 for Workman, and 264 / 359 / 377 for Webster. The difference in results was largely RDLR being much better with runners on than bases empty; and the opposite being true for the others. Not sure how predictive we should expect this.

Steamer likes Workman the best for '15 (4.37 FIP, compared to 4.47 for RDLR and 4.9 for Webster).

I think you have to keep all of these guys starters for as long as possible (either in Boston or AAA). So, one of them wins the job in ST...the other two start in Pawtucket, and by mid-season you re-evaluate (perhaps at that point it's clear that someone is a candidate to relieve, for example).

Granted, it's impossible to keep them all on the 40-man and starting, I think. So I expect at least two of these guys (probably Ranaudo and Barnes) are moved.
Not around here there isn't.  Most of us were screaming our heads off last season when they kept giving him starts even after it became abundantly clear he's a two-pitch relief guy.
 
Like Savin, I think the #5 slot is probably Rubby's to lose, Webster's to win, with Workman going straight to the bullpen.  
 

67WasBest

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Seeing very little consideration for Wright starting in the 5th spot.  Anyone have thoughts on him?  Farrell had nice words for him in the late season as the guy who may have stood out from the others.  I remember one really bad appearance, but he threw some decent innings.
 

TomRicardo

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The Braves Non Tendered both Medlen and Beachy.  I would be looking at either with a two year contract with an option.
 
(Beachy couldn't get 1.5 million from the Braves, Maybe something like 7/2 with 5 million dollar option)
 

67WasBest

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TomRicardo said:
The Braves Non Tendered both Medlen and Beachy.  I would be looking at either with a two year contract with an option.
 
(Beachy couldn't get 1.5 million from the Braves, Maybe something like 7/2 with 5 million dollar option)
They have to move a number of bodies first, but I think these would be smart future bets for a team with the Sox resources
 

grimshaw

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As a point of reference on those two non-tenders, the Padres declined Josh Johnson's two year option at 4 mill and he is expected to re-sign for less.
 
Since each of those two Braves have had TJ twice, I don't think it would take much for either.  I'd say even less, since Johnson was better at his peak and he's still only 30.
 
I guess it's also possible that Johnson would want to make good with the team since he didn't pitch last year as well and maybe didn't test the market.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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grimshaw said:
As a point of reference on those two non-tenders, the Padres declined Josh Johnson's two year option at 4 mill and he is expected to re-sign for less.
 
Since each of those two Braves have had TJ twice, I don't think it would take much for either.  I'd say even less since Johnson was better at his peak and he's still only 30.
 
I guess it's also possible that Johnson would want to make good with the team since he didn't pitch last year as well and maybe didn't test the market.
One thing it is likely to take is a reasonable expectation that they'll get the ball every five days, and a chance to rebuild their market value.  I don't think the Sox are a very appealing destination in that respect.
 

phenweigh

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67WasBest said:
Seeing very little consideration for Wright starting in the 5th spot.  Anyone have thoughts on him?  Farrell had nice words for him in the late season as the guy who may have stood out from the others.  I remember one really bad appearance, but he threw some decent innings.
I like the idea of Wright in the bullpen.  It seems to me that less strain per pitch gives knucklers the ability to pitch on short rest and provide multiple innings results valuable  flexibility in the pen.  If Wright starts, he gets the ball every fifth day and that flexibility is lost.  Though Wakefield was mostly a starter, he did show success as a reliever, but it seems his role out of the pen was limited for two reasons.  The Sox had a starting catcher who struggled to catch the knuckler, so that catcher could be avoided on Wake's starts.  Tim was clearly one of the best five starters in the organization.  I don't think either of these reasons exists with Wright and Vazquez.
 
Also I always thought knucklers would be more effective out of the bullpen.  It's a tough adjustment for hitters even with the knowledge that they are going to face a knuckelball pitcher the next day.  It seems it would be even harder to deal with with no idea when you might have to face it.
 

grimshaw

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I think Wright is needed too but also in long relief.
 
Last year they had a total of 13 appearances by their regular relievers throwing two innings or more.  Badenhop did it 8 times, Koji 3, and Breslow 2.  There was only 1 appearance of 3 innings or more and that was by Badenhop.  Farrell seems to prefer spreading the wealth among multiple relievers in a lopsided game.  Buchholz has been erratic, Kelly was a 6 inning guy and they lost their two horses so need to make up those innings with those 3 slots remaining.
 

geoduck no quahog

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jasail said:
IMO, it's going to go to an internal candidate: Workman, Webster, RDLR, Ranaudo, Wright, Barnes, and Owens. I don't see what the point is in carrying these seven guys on the 40 man roster if they are not going to be used on the 25-man roster. Even if they trade one or two and bring one or two on to up to Boston, they still have plenty of organizational depth. So, I don't see the Sox investing additional resources for another more "established" arm with some type of risk (e.g., injury, recent ineffectiveness) to take that roster spot and potentially add to the existing redundancy. So, IMO, it's a matter of determining which arm is best suited for the job...
 
Interesting post, but you forgot Escobar...who "some" say is the most big-show ready of the bunch.
 

TOleary25

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I'd like to see someone like Ogando or Morrow brought in. Someone that can compete for a spot in the rotation in spring training, has some upside, and is flexible enough to be moved to the bullpen.
 

jasail

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geoduck no quahog said:
 
Interesting post, but you forgot Escobar...who "some" say is the most big-show ready of the bunch.
 
Fair point. Excluding him was an oversight. However, if he were to be included I don't think my analysis and conclusions would change. While his pitches and pitchability are further along than the other options, his 2014 season is troublesome. While these numbers may be largely driven by the PCL, I think additional time in Pawtucket may be necessary to enhance the understanding of how he should be utilized. Furthermore, based on my limited viewing of him last summer and the few scouting reports I have read, he seems to be very effective against LHH and his velocity plays up, so I can seem him destined for a bullpen role and perhaps developing into the primary LHSU. However, pending a trade, to start the season he's likely behind both Britton (out of options) and Layne (more of a track record) for the LHP spots in the pen.  
 

Idabomb333

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I think some people have been essentially making this point, but I don't think I've seen it quite as explicitly as I'm hoping to convey.
 
I really like the idea of having so many pitchers who have some decent chance of being above AL average.  It's more obvious in the bullpen, but pitching quality fluctuates a heck of a lot year to year, and there are several roster spots for essentially the same position.  I really hope the Sox can take advantage of it.  I'm thinking of it like this: people keep saying things like, "well Webster has a tendency to lose control and RDLR doesn't have a great 3rd pitch" and so on about each of the different young pitchers we have around, and they're all valid points.  Every year, several pitchers around the league with a valid complaint like that going into the season end up with a great year.  Maybe it'll only be a 1-year thing, or maybe they figure something out, but there are always plenty of pitchers who dramatically exceed their projections.  I think having a whole lot of possibilities gives us a great chance of catching one of those break out or career years.  If we look at everyone's 50th percentile projections and try to pick the best ones, that's not particularly reassuring.  If we look at everyone's 90th percentile projections, I bet we'd be all be ecstatic to see 2 pitchers hit that out of our young crop.  Take, say, RDLR, Webster, Ranaudo, Johnson, Owens, Barnes, Rodriguez, and Workman as nearly ML ready pitchers with lukewarm projections and the arguable ability to start.  The chances that at least one of them hits his 90th percentile projection is about 55%.  The chances that at least one of them hits 80th percentile projection is about 85%.  I have no particular insight on what their 80th and 90th percentile projections are, but I bet the worst of their 80th percentile projections would be a pitcher we'd be very happy to have 5th in the Sox rotation.  Throw in Wright and Escobar and we're talking about a 65% chance of hitting at least one's 90th and a 90% chance of hitting at least one's 80th.
 
Of course, the issue is complicated by the fact that we don't know ahead of time which one will hit the high projection even assuming someone does, and moving them around a lot to try to find the hot hand could mess them up.  Still, I see strength in numbers and I'd really like the Sox to hold onto that.  It's probably also worth pointing out that if the Sox are willing to move a few to the bullpen, the acceptable projections for them probably come down to 60th or 70th percentiles and we're looking at excellent chances of getting a great reliever or two out of the bunch, if we can identify who they are.  And in the bullpen, there are probably more roster spots available to the youngsters to experiment and find out who's having a great year or who plays up the most in the pen.
 

Corsi

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According to a major league source, the club has made a contract offer on right-hander Justin Masterson, who is trying to come back from a disappointing injury-plagued season.
 
The market for Masterson, however, is considered robust. According to reports, his agent, Randy Rowley had already met with Boston officials and was scheduled to meet with the Miami Marlins during the winter meetings.
 
http://rangersblog.dallasnews.com/2014/12/texas-rangers-make-bid-for-free-agent-starter.html/
 

BarrettsHiddenBall

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How many innings do you think they could get out of Brett Anderson before he hits the DL? I reckon 60, though he's running out of limbs to break, so maybe he pitches a full season.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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Rasputin said:
 
I wonder if Masterson would consider moving to the bullpen.
I read this morning that he won't.  Let me try to find it.  He'll most likely sign a 1-year make-good contract.  Searching...
 
EDIT: Thx to Kramerica below.
 

Kramerica Industries

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Hee Sox Choi said:
I read this morning that he won't.  Let me try to find it.  He'll most likely sign a 1-year make-good contract.  Searching...
 
no link but Heyman said on MLBN that he wants a rotation spot
 

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Masterson seems like a reasonable guy to sign a pillow deal here. Sure he has a lot of question marks, but he had success with Farrell way back when, has some upside, and the Sox have a few open rotation spots.
We have top of the rotation spots.  Masterson can't possibly be signed as a nominal #1 or #2, and it's not clear he's put together enough to beat out guys already on the roster for one of the other slots.  Can't see why he'd come here.
 

YTF

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A couple of things come to mind after a quick read through here. First with all of the young talent and limited roster spots I really don't see the Sox trading for or signing a pitcher to fill the fifth spot in the rotation. There are enough #5 capables in the organization. Perhaps the third spot but not the fifth. As for Masterson (assuming he would come) where does he possibly fit in? Certainly neither of the top two spots. Is his suck or potential to turn things around any better than Buchholz's suck or potential to things around? Kelly is going to make considerably less, isn't FA eligible until '19 and stills shows promise. If Masterson doesn't turn back to Masterful, he's certainly no better than any of the kids.
 

YTF

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Rudy, where do you see Masterson slotted in? If it's not #1 or #2 who do you take out of the rotation? Save for Buch or Kelly being part of a deal to bring in another guy, I just don't see a spot for him unless they move multiple youngsters from those mentioned up thread in a deal.
 

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Answering question: Internal option.  Best (and healthiest) man wins, likely RDLR, Webster, Workman or Wright.  Would like to see one of the first two run with it - highest upsides of this group.
 
Picking up a guy like Ogando with the intention of stashing him in the pen and having him available to start later if needed (and if he's healthy) would be ok.  Stashing another rehabbing vet in AAA would also be ok.  But I do NOT want them signing someone like Masterson to clog up the back end.  Risk and dollars are too high.  Spend the money elsewhere (like on the top 2 guys).
 

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Minneapolis Millers said:
 
Picking up a guy like Ogando with the intention of stashing him in the pen and having him available to start later if needed (and if he's healthy) would be ok.  Stashing another rehabbing vet in AAA would also be ok.  But I do NOT want them signing someone like Masterson to clog up the back end.  Risk and dollars are too high.  Spend the money elsewhere (like on the top 2 guys).
 
I've seen a bit of Ogando, and I can say with 100% certainty that he's not a SP. His stuff takes a big hit, he doesn't have the stamina to do it, gets injured. Love him as an 8th inning piece though.
 

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Minneapolis Millers said:
Answering question: Internal option.  Best (and healthiest) man wins, likely RDLR, Webster, Workman or Wright.  Would like to see one of the first two run with it - highest upsides of this group.
 
Picking up a guy like Ogando with the intention of stashing him in the pen and having him available to start later if needed (and if he's healthy) would be ok.  Stashing another rehabbing vet in AAA would also be ok.  But I do NOT want them signing someone like Masterson to clog up the back end.  Risk and dollars are too high.  Spend the money elsewhere (like on the top 2 guys).
What is the risk though? It's been reported he wants a 1 year deal. And we have no idea what the dollars are. It would have to be astronomical to make any real impact on offers to the top 2 guys which are likely 5 or 6 year deals.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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The risk is that he stinks, and they waste a half season of starts on him, instead of giving those starts to someone better obtained during this offseason, or using them to develop our own prospects.  Opportunity costs on three levels (getting a better player for the limited space, 25 man roster; wins; and prospect development). 
 

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“@TimBritton: Cherington said the Red Sox have made multiple offers to free agents, including starting pitchers.”
 

Shamus74

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Barry Zito, who sat out 2014, wants to pitch in 2015.
 
"Zito, who stepped away from the game after the 2013 season, has been working out at a facility in Houston since September and is said to be encouraged by the mechanical adjustments he has made. The 36-year-old is working with Ron Wolforth, a rather unorthodox trainer who helped A's left-hander Scott Kazmir return to form."
 
He's represetned by Boras, but Zito would probably sign a minor league deal. Might be worth a flyer.
 

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Shamus74 said:
Barry Zito, who sat out 2014, wants to pitch in 2015.
 
"Zito, who stepped away from the game after the 2013 season, has been working out at a facility in Houston since September and is said to be encouraged by the mechanical adjustments he has made. The 36-year-old is working with Ron Wolforth, a rather unorthodox trainer who helped A's left-hander Scott Kazmir return to form."
 
He's represetned by Boras, but Zito would probably sign a minor league deal. Might be worth a flyer.
 
Classic Spring Training invite opportunity, I'd say.