DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
This.
Denver needed to get better for the playoffs, not the regular season. Aqib don't do playoffs.
Talib to Denver
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
This.
Denver needed to get better for the playoffs, not the regular season. Aqib don't do playoffs.
Well that sucks but it's a huge overpay and I am glad the Pats didn't match. I am traveling today which is good because Felger and Mazz are going to be unbearable unless they land Revis between now and 2:00.
Ralphwiggum said:
Guessing auto-correct changed "Revis" to "are is."
I made the mistake of reading comments below a FB post from 98.5 about Revis's top choice being New England. Ye gods.
It's an overpay, but I'm still sad to see him go...he was the best corner we've had since Ty Law.
He's a big corner, can't cover the small guys, does not take away half of the field, and if Manning throws the ball on target in that game at Foxboro, we'd all have been bitching about how he got dropped by Thomas. Steve Smith ate his lunch at Carolina.
Whenever one of our Free Agents leave I always try to play the numbers game. Would I be happy if the Pats paid that? If not, what would I have been happy with. This money is crazy for a guy who (even when healthy) has issues with certain types of receivers, but shows up not healthy too often for elite money. Plus you've got the college and Tampa behavior coupled with legal weed and you've got a ticking time bomb. My guess is it won't take 6 years to get the worst out of him.
They can have him at that pricetag and years. I would have said no at 60% of that amount. How would anyone feel if it was 4yrs/34m/16guaranteed?
Whenever one of our Free Agents leave I always try to play the numbers game. Would I be happy if the Pats paid that? If not, what would I have been happy with. This money is crazy for a guy who (even when healthy) has issues with certain types of receivers, but shows up not healthy too often for elite money. Plus you've got the college and Tampa behavior coupled with legal weed and you've got a ticking time bomb. My guess is it won't take 6 years to get the worst out of him.
They can have him at that pricetag and years. I would have said no at 60% of that amount. How would anyone feel if it was 4yrs/34m/16guaranteed?
Overpaying for a (injury-prone) corner is stupid. Yes it makes the Pats worse but I'd rather see NE spend the money elsewhere anyway. Shocking move at first but when you see the price tag it's somewhat mitigated. I do respect Denver's all-in mentality, though. Brady only has a few years left, too. Maybe adjust your approach a bit, BB?
We have discussed this many times on this board, but BB and more importantly Bob and Jonathan Kraft do not believe in a Brady window and are not going to GFIN at the expense of the post-Brady years. Personally I'm fine with that but can see how it might frustrate some fans.
If anything, we may have to come around to the fact that they may even consider trading Brady while he still has value to kickstart the next "window". I'm not saying it happens this year but in the near future, it's certainly possible.Ralphwiggum said:
That's fine, but they had be very good or lucky at QB lottery. It's not either/or. It could easily be true that Denver's approach is sounder conceptually, even if flawed in execution. I think this is too much for Talib; it smells a bit like a rushed move. I'm still generally on board with how Denver is approaching this. If they get Ware, it will be a very strong FA period for them.
moondog80 said:
Year/Age/Games
2008 / 22 / 15 (*only 2 games started)
2009 / 23 / 15
2010 / 24 / 11
2011 / 25 / 13
2012 / 26 / 10 (TAM + NE, 9 games started)
2013 / 27 / 13
As stated all over this thread, Talib gets his payday and DEN is in GFIN mode.
I'm sorry I'm too dumb to figure this out, but how easily can the Broncos fit Ware under their cap post-Talib?
Edit: I guess, thinking it over, that I'm not so much disappointed the Pats let Talib walk at those numbers... BUT I'm disappointed they didn't sew up Verner as soon as they smelled the dollars they were willing to pay wouldn't cut the mustard. [a/k/a the Welker/Amendola strategy]
Edit: I guess, thinking it over, that I'm not so much disappointed the Pats let Talib walk at those numbers... BUT I'm disappointed they didn't sew up Verner as soon as they smelled the dollars they were willing to pay wouldn't cut the mustard. [a/k/a the Welker/Amendola strategy]
They had about $28 million in room before any signings according to OverTheCap. I don't think the final terms have been released but I assume the majority of his money this year is in the guarantee, not salary so his hit this year is only ~$5-6 million. TJ Ward will count about $~4-5 million this year.
That leaves them with about $18 million but they have other holes to fill. They make another $6 million in space by cutting Welker.
My numbers in the first paragraph are just estimates so its not perfect.
That leaves them with about $18 million but they have other holes to fill. They make another $6 million in space by cutting Welker.
My numbers in the first paragraph are just estimates so its not perfect.
Ralphwiggum said:
We've also been talking about the Brady window since at least this time in 2009: if we'd been in GFIN mode back then (by singificantly backloading contracts or by trading futures picks) we'd already be suffering the consequences.
Den better hope for injury luck, since that really is the determining factor. Get a top 5-6 roster and keep your guys the healthiest. Look at Seattle last year. No major injuries what-so-ever in the key spots all season long.
The hate spilled here over Talib (and Ware) would be pretty different if the Pats had signed them. Even to this contract -- we'd just be talking about how they could cut him in 3 years if they wanted and how it was a brilliant GFIN move, finally. But hey, one person's sour grapes is another's looking on the bright side, I guess.
Both are very good players with some relatively small concerns that the Broncos apparently don't care about that much. But we already knew the Broncos were good -- they manhandled the AFC last year. No move they've made helps their offense stop SF or SEA's defense or helps Manning throw more than 10 yards downfield.
If NE signs Revis this is fine. If they go with a lesser CB then I'm unhappy.
Both are very good players with some relatively small concerns that the Broncos apparently don't care about that much. But we already knew the Broncos were good -- they manhandled the AFC last year. No move they've made helps their offense stop SF or SEA's defense or helps Manning throw more than 10 yards downfield.
Steve Smith is a hoF player and was basically the only payer who had a good game against Talib last year. And being big is a plus, not a minus -- it's a rarity to find a guy who can cover someone like Jimmy Graham.PaulinMyrBch said:
If NE signs Revis this is fine. If they go with a lesser CB then I'm unhappy.
Maybe let's for once not just suddenly throw a guy under the bus, pick at every last wart, just because WE didn't sign him. His shortcomings are clear, it was definitely an overpay, but the guy was a very good, impact player for us and was, by all accounts, a great guy in the locker room.
He was good, we lost him, that sucks but we can recover. What's next?
He was good, we lost him, that sucks but we can recover. What's next?
In a vacuum this looks bad and I understand why Pats fans immediately freak out. Our top FA, CB, and one of our best players on D just went to our biggest rival in the AFC. But then you start to look at everything else and start to step back from the ledge.
The contract is much higher than anything I'd be comfortable with the Pats playing. Talib has trouble staying on the field, and two of his injuries are huge reasons they were knocked off in the AFC Championship game. It's more likely they'll bring in Revis (even if it's only a fraction). There's also some value in cheaper fallback plans (DRC, Cromartie, Browner, Champ, Tillman).
I'll start complaining if they do nothing from here on forward to address CB1. Which I find highly unlikely.
The contract is much higher than anything I'd be comfortable with the Pats playing. Talib has trouble staying on the field, and two of his injuries are huge reasons they were knocked off in the AFC Championship game. It's more likely they'll bring in Revis (even if it's only a fraction). There's also some value in cheaper fallback plans (DRC, Cromartie, Browner, Champ, Tillman).
I'll start complaining if they do nothing from here on forward to address CB1. Which I find highly unlikely.
Exactly. They really don't have a lot of highly paid guys-Manning, Vasquez, Clady, Welker (if they keep him) and that's about it. Miller and Thomas have 6.6 and 4.7 million cap figures so those aren't too bad at all.DrewDawg said:
Now 2015 things change quite a bit for Denver because they have a whole bunch of pretty good players- both Thomases, Moore, Franklin, Chris Harris, and--if they maintain their play--Knighton and Vickerson who all become free agents.
We can all hope Von Miller and Talib like to hang out together. Double whammy in one night potential there.
Josh Gordon is closer to Megatron than he is the 3rd best WR in the league. No shame in getting beat by him.Dogman2 said:
Gordon is really good. Do we need to find all the #1 receivers that did little or nothing against Talib?Dogman2 said:
If the point is Talib can have a poor game against one of the top 3 WR in the league, then, yes, I knew that. But he stopped most receivers he was assigned to, especially at the beginning of the year when he was closest to 100%. I believe he was in single-coverage most of that game too, while most teams would probably give whoever was covering Gordon help.
It's OK to not like the deal for the price and injury / off-field risk and also concede that Talib is an excellent player.
Toe Nash said:
Am I reading the wrong thread? I see a lot of "shit, this sucks, but that's a lot of money" responses, particularly because of Talib's injury history. There are a few mentions of some of the WRs who burnt Talib, but mostly I think people are conceding that this move in a vacuum makes the Pats worse, but (a) its an overpay and most are fine with the Pats not extending themselves like that for Talib particularly since he's got a spotty injury history, and (b) there is a lot of offseason to go.
j44thor said:
I think you can keep the core together through at least 2015.They likely option Miller for 2015 and he'll have something like a $9 million cap hit. I assume they resign both Thomases but with reasonably low first year cap numbers.
Toe Nash said:
Or correcting obviously incorrect simple statements? You said something that wasn't true. You were corrected. Mea culpa the correction and move on with your life. It's not picking nits to point that you made a statement that was not true. It's not like he added any other commentary attacking your overall point, just pointed out an error you had made.
Toe Nash said:
Dogman2 said:
Toe Nash said:
See, this isn't picking nits. You made an incorrect statement and was called on it. Own it and move on.
Toe Nash said:
It's really not picking nits though. When you say that in the 13 games he played he was only lit up once, and that's something that everyone that watched the games knows is wrong, it's the opposite of picking nits, it's pointing out the obvious.
Picking nits would be if someone said QBs completed 56% of passes against him and I said "No, it's 56.1%".
To me, Talib played at an All Pro level during the first six games of the year. That was up to and including the New Orleans game, when he shut out Graham. He came back 5 weeks later, against Carolina. To my eyes, he was not the same player for the rest of the year as he was for the first six games. He was still an above average CB and an asset to the defense. But he wasn't close to the Ty Law prime / Revis / Talib first six weeks shutdown corner.
I guess what I am saying is, when healthy this guy is all world, but health does not appear to be a strength.
I guess what I am saying is, when healthy this guy is all world, but health does not appear to be a strength.
Gordon had a decent day, but a lot of the overall numbers were inflated by that one crossing route that broke free, and Talib was still revovering from injury. I thought Talib played a decent game against a phenomenal opponent, just not stellar.
Overall, Gordon was 7 for 151, which is a nice day, but worse that the 2 games he had prior. Make a tough tackle on the 80 yd TD and you've got 7 for 80 or so, which would be a solid day vs. Gordon.
Anyway, just agreeing with the larger point: the only 2 guys to have a really good game against Talib are a hof'er (who was clearly in his head) and an absolute fucking beast in Gordon...that is nothing to sneeze at.
Overall, Gordon was 7 for 151, which is a nice day, but worse that the 2 games he had prior. Make a tough tackle on the 80 yd TD and you've got 7 for 80 or so, which would be a solid day vs. Gordon.
Anyway, just agreeing with the larger point: the only 2 guys to have a really good game against Talib are a hof'er (who was clearly in his head) and an absolute fucking beast in Gordon...that is nothing to sneeze at.
Marciano490 said:
We have more pressing needs IMO. That and someone is going to overpay for him. What he does offer is the ability to be a deep threat but I'm not sure how much that matters/adds to what we already have. Even if we lose JE I don't know...
He was really awesome for the Pats when he was healthy, probably better than anyone available not named Revis. Unfortunately that was for about 10 games over 1.5 seasons. Im almost happy Denver blew them out of the water and made the decision easy, trying to figure out whether to give him the Grimes deal seemed like a really tough call to me.Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt said:
Its not really even the back end of the contract I was worried about with Talib as much as firing a big chunk of cap space over the next three years and getting not much out of it due to health/behavioral issues,
EDIT: Do not want Decker, useful player but seems like a candidate for a gross overpay.
eric_d_williams Eric Williams
If released, #Panthers WR Steve Smith would be a good fit for the #Chargers
If released, #Panthers WR Steve Smith would be a good fit for the #Chargers
Bergs said:
Eric Van approves this post!
-7/151 was a "nice day"
-Not as good as the best two games of his career the weeks before, but Talib played well
-if they only tackled him on an 80 yard play, it would have been 7/80 which would only have been solid
-Talib's excuse is he was recovering from injury, which is a good portion of the last two years.
As someone getting bashed here for supporting Talib and resigning him for a large contract, it sucks being on the other side but saying that Talib's performance against Cleveland was good is crazy. Even if he tackled Gordon, its still not a great game.
I'll miss him. Injuries and all, he walked the line while here, and was a force in the defense when he wasn't healing his hip.
The bitter side of me wonders if he sat out of the AFCCG after getting banged up to protect himself for FA. And if he did, the fact that he ended up going to the Broncos - the very team that picked the Pats apart that game largely due to his lack of availability - is a double gut-punch.