SOSH Running Dogs

[the_right_arm_of_God]

Thanks for that spread sheet!

This link is from Hal Higdon's site:
Running calculator
This guy, McMillan, seems to have some very interesting ideas.

I am going to run a 1/2 Marathon in 12 weeks. It will be the first race I have run since 1988 (a 10K, I think I ran about 42:00). Over the years I gained, and now finally lost, about 65 pounds since 1988.

The information available, coupled with the data from my Garmin 305, makes training with purpose and intention a very seductive idea. My plan is to use Hal's 1/2M novice plan and incorporate McMillan's recommendations for pacing and type of workout (he calls the categories stamina, speed, and endurance). My goal is to finish in under 2:30:00. Not a world's record, but considering everything it will be for me.

 

[underhandtofirst]

This link is from Hal Higdon's site:
Running calculator
This guy, McMillan, seems to have some very interesting ideas.

I am going to run a 1/2 Marathon in 12 weeks. It will be the first race I have run since 1988 (a 10K, I think I ran about 42:00). Over the years I gained, and now finally lost, about 65 pounds since 1988.

The information available, coupled with the data from my Garmin 305, makes training with purpose and intention a very seductive idea. My plan is to use Hal's 1/2M novice plan and incorporate McMillan's recommendations for pacing and type of workout (he calls the categories stamina, speed, and endurance). My goal is to finish in under 2:30:00. Not a world's record, but considering everything it will be for me.

I used HH's novice plan for my first HM 2.5 years ago and it worked well. My most recent HM I used a plan from Pete Pftizinger's book. I adjusted it a little and I peaked at about 35 miles per week. I included a couple runs of 14 miles because my ultimate goal is the marathon.

A note on the calculators. I've found many calculators dont quite work for me. They assume a higher level of fitness and mileage base I believe. I ran a 19:44 5k in early Feb and that translated to a 1:31:13 HM. I ran 1:35 3 weeks later in close to perfect conditions. I think part of the difference is explained by the type of runner I am, more short distance than long. I was a 400m, 600yd, 800m, 1000yd runner in HS. The rest is that I'm not a 50-70 mpw kind of guy.

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

Yeah, don't trust MacMillan's calculator for distances that are far apart. I ran 2 miles in 13 minutes yesterday, but I will not be running a 1:37 half marathon any time soon.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Running calculator
This guy, McMillan, seems to have some very interesting ideas.

Yeah, don't trust MacMillan's calculator for distances that are far apart. I ran 2 miles in 13 minutes yesterday, but I will not be running a 1:37 half marathon any time soon.

Check out this site which talks about running calculators and how they may or may not work for everyone. Below is a chart for converting 10k times to marathon times. I recall most people use 4.7 to convert 10k times to marathon. last year I ran 44:12 for a 10k then 3:31:45 for the marathon for a 4.76 ratio. The 10k was on a hilly course, and marathon on a flat one that I suffered through the last 8 miles. I averaged 36 mpw for the 18 week training program last year, peaking at 49 miles.

Jim2

Mileage				Ratio 

30-35 mpw			5.5 

40 mpw			  5.0-5.3 

55 mpw				 4.9 

60 mpw			4.75-4.85 

70 mpw			  4.7-4.8 

80-100 mpw	 4.55-4.65 

As you can see, the surveyed runners whose actual ratios were 4.6-4.7, which is the range on which race calculators/tables are based, ran more than 70 miles per week. That is an advanced stage of competitive marathoning and just might be the level of the typical runner on which the original calculator algorithm was based 25 years ago, since most marathoners in those days were of the "hardcore" type

edit: Most calculators do have the note that the conversion assumes you do the required training for the other distance. The required training may be a bit more than most of us do. I've read reports that some people have a tougher time converting marathon success down to 5k or so because they lack the speed necessary

I'd be interested to see what some of the more experienced and hardcore runners think of the calculators. I know BF used to run 70+ quite often, he might be a good test case.

 

[BleacherFan]

I'd be interested to see what some of the more experienced and hardcore runners think of the calculators. I know BF23 used to run 70+ quite often, he might be a good test case.

I very rarely use calculators for this kinda stuff - there are too many variables that factor into my personal results. Like many people here, a lot of my racing is done leading up to a goal race where the training needed to excel in a 5k is lacking since my focus is on mileage and not on speedwork necessary for a marathon. My PR for a 1/2 marathon (1:15) says that I should probably be 'able' to go sub 2:40 - and that's the shape I feel I'm in now. My 10k PR on the other hand is like 35:XX which doesn't even come close - this is because my PR for the 10k came 3 weeks after Boston in 07 - not the ideal time for a 10k.

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

You guys are far more sophisticated than I am.

I just figured if I follow Hal's plan I'll be able to run seven 11 minute miles and six 12 minute miles - all one after another on race day. Maybe 2:30 is too aggressive for me in a 1/2M... if I finish under 3 hours I'll be crossing the line with a smile.

McMillian's calculator has me finishing a 1/2M in 2:19. That's not likely to happen ever. I will try to follow some of his calculator's pace instructions/suggestions.

 

[underhandtofirst]

You guys are far more sophisticated than I am.

I just figured if I follow Hal's plan I'll be able to run seven 11 minute miles and six 12 minute miles - all one after another on race day. Maybe 2:30 is too aggressive for me in a 1/2M... if I finish under 3 hours I'll be crossing the line with a smile.

McMillian's calculator has me finishing a 1/2M in 2:19. That's not likely to happen ever. I will try to follow some of his calculator's pace instructions/suggestions.

You'll begin to get a pretty decent idea of your potential pace from your workouts. Keep in mind that you can usually go a bit faster on race day than during training for a couple reasons. First, you're not fatigued from previous workouts (hopefully), second adrenaline helps, and third, you can empty the tank on race day. You'd be amazed what you can do by chasing down people late in the race.

Focus on running even splits (even effort not necessarily pace) and you'll do ok.

Do you keep track of heart rate data? Not everyone likes to use it, but I find it very helpful to keep track of effort level.

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

You'll begin to get a pretty decent idea of your potential pace from your workouts. Keep in mind that you can usually go a bit faster on race day than during training for a couple reasons. First, you're not fatigued from previous workouts (hopefully), second adrenaline helps, and third, you can empty the tank on race day. You'd be amazed what you can do by chasing down people late in the race.

Focus on running even splits (even effort not necessarily pace) and you'll do ok.

Do you keep track of heart rate data? Not everyone likes to use it, but I find it very helpful to keep track of effort level.

I do keep track of heart rate since I got the Garmin. I want to use it every time I run. I am looking forward to seeing my heart rate drop as my conditioning improves.

I need a more directed approach to build my workout's intensity and training for a race gives me a template. Hal is deliberately vague about pace in his Novice 1/2 Marathon program. I've decided, without any idea what I'm doing, to adopt the following paces during my training prior to the 1/2M:
Shorter runs 9-10 minutes/mile
Long runs 11-12 minutes/mile

Hopefully as the weeks go by the times will gradually improve. I run for fun, but I am at the point where I want to get more out of it. To be honest, until I got the Garmin and became interested in running a race I had been very undisciplined, just strolling around at a whimsical pace for 30-60 minutes 4 or 5 times a week for the past few months. I often ran hard, especially up hills, but I had no structure.

Right now I am very interested in the mechanics/technique of my stride. That seems to be about the only thing a runner has to work with. I want to practice the best mechanics. Where I have been running the past week or so there are people of every skill level running. Seeing some people flailing away and others gliding by made me really want to work on finding my own mechanically advantageous stride.

Does anyone have any thoughts (or sources of information) on stride?

 

[underhandtofirst]

Ran the Corporate Challenge last night. The race was shortened to 3.07 (from 3.5) because Kenmore Square had 'unsafe running conditions'. It was packed as usual. I was able to elbow my way up to the area between 7 min milers and 8 min milers. it still took 1:12 to cross the starting line. I dont think I had many stretches of clear running the entire run. I spent the entire race surging and laying back trying to find space to run. Not sure why they even put the signs up for mile pace because nobody pays attention to them.

My splits were:
7:31 - 1 mile
6:44 - 2 mile
6:39 for 1.07 (6:12 mile pace)
20:54

Yeah, nice negative splits I was really hoping for a faster time, but considering the crowd it probably wasnt that bad.

 

[underhandtofirst]

I need a more directed approach to build my workout's intensity and training for a race gives me a template. Hal is deliberately vague about pace in his Novice 1/2 Marathon program. I've decided, without any idea what I'm doing, to adopt the following paces during my training prior to the 1/2M:
Shorter runs 9-10 minutes/mile
Long runs 11-12 minutes/mile

I always wondered the same thing. mcMillian has some ranges for pace

Easy (recovery runs): 90-120 seconds over marathon pace (MP)
Base (normal runs): 30 sec-60 seconds over MP
Long Runs: 30 seconds to 90 seconds over MP

Pfitzinger recommends paces based on heart rates. You can do it by % of Max heart rate or % of heart rate reserver (better method).

Heart rate reserve (HRR) = Max Heart rate - resting heart rate

For me my max HR (reached at end of race yesterday) is 187
My resting HR is about 53
my HRR = 134

so 70% of my HRR would be 53+(.7*134)=147. I'm supposed to stay under 147 for my recovery runs

Recovery runs: 60-70% of HRR
Long Runs: 65-78%
Base Runs: 70-80%
Tempo: 85-90%

The percentage range is for the beginning to the end of the run. Obviously your heart rate goes up with the same effort level as the run goes along. That's probably a bit more than you were looking for, but I hope it gives you a better idea.

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

I do appreciate the insight from an experienced runner. Thanks.

I spent 2 hours (at work) on the www researching different aspects of heart rate today (before I read your post). The fact that heart rate centered pace is almost always based on % of maximum and the four formulas on Wikipedia had my max at 172,172,173, and 171 (I am 49years old) is a problem for me.

The fastest I have run in the last 20 years was this week, 3 miles in 29:05. I was working pretty hard, I could have had at least broken conversation, but I was certainly not at my maximum speed nor my maximum effort. It was flat but conditions were awful (90+ degrees and 60%+ humidity). According to the Garmin my average heart rate was 157 and my maximum was 179 for that run. I wasn't racing, it was just my daily before lunch run and I was playing with my new toy, the Garmin 305.

So, my problem is if I am going to run at 75% of my supposed maximum heart rate, Hal's recommendation, it is about 130 beats per minute. 130 beats per minute doesn't get me done. I have to be around 140-150 to get my buzz on. My resting heart rate is 50. I am going to find out my recovery heart rate after my next run (I just learned about that parameter today). I don't want to overtrain or do anything risky, but I seriously like the pace at 150 beats per minute (or more). I am reluctant to disregard Hal, but I like it better when the old pump is working a little harder.

Using the HRR formula is a new wrinkle for me... my "calculated max" is about 172. I went back and looked at all my runs since I got the Garmin. I had a point back home, before I traveled to Houston, where my measured heart rate was 185 on a very steep hill. Using 185 - 50 = 135 HRR and 135 + 50 = 185 for the value I get to multiply by the percentages. The HHR method seems to fit me better.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[BleacherFan]

My splits were:
7:31 - 1 mile
6:44 - 2 mile
6:39 for 1.07 (6:12 mile pace)
20:54

Yeah, nice negative splits I was really hoping for a faster time, but considering the crowd it probably wasnt that bad.

Nice kick the last mile! You definitely must have found some running room...More fuel for the fire that you're training very smart lately.

So, my problem is if I am going to run at 75% of my supposed maximum heart rate, Hal's recommendation, it is about 130 beats per minute. 130 beats per minute doesn't get me done. I have to be around 140-150 to get my buzz on. My resting heart rate is 50. I am going to find out my recovery heart rate after my next run (I just learned about that parameter today). I don't want to overtrain or do anything risky, but I seriously like the pace at 150 beats per minute (or more). I am reluctant to disregard Hal, but I like it better when the old pump is working a little harder.

Any thoughts on this?

Ahh, recovery runs - nice to see someone else doesn't have them in their repertoire

Kenyans are notorious for running 10minute miles as recovery runs according to Nate Jenkins who even cranks off 8 mile miles on a regular basis. This is a true recovery workout just meant to get everything moving and to prevent tightening up.

That being said, I don't do them and I should. But I'm like you - I feel better when I feel like I'm working at it.

P.S. Great effort by Amy Begley last night in the 10k - made the Olympics by 2 seconds in a gutty performance running a 5k PR in the 2nd half of the race in tough conditions.

 

[underhandtofirst]

I do appreciate the insight from an experienced runner. Thanks.

I spent 2 hours (at work) on the www researching different aspects of heart rate today (before I read your post). The fact that heart rate centered pace is almost always based on % of maximum and the four formulas on Wikipedia had my max at 172,172,173, and 171 (I am 49years old) is a problem for me.

The fastest I have run in the last 20 years was this week, 3 miles in 29:05. I was working pretty hard, I could have had at least broken conversation, but I was certainly not at my maximum speed nor my maximum effort. It was flat but conditions were awful (90+ degrees and 60%+ humidity). According to the Garmin my average heart rate was 157 and my maximum was 179 for that run. I wasn't racing, it was just my daily before lunch run and I was playing with my new toy, the Garmin 305.

So, my problem is if I am going to run at 75% of my supposed maximum heart rate, Hal's recommendation, it is about 130 beats per minute. 130 beats per minute doesn't get me done. I have to be around 140-150 to get my buzz on. My resting heart rate is 50. I am going to find out my recovery heart rate after my next run (I just learned about that parameter today). I don't want to overtrain or do anything risky, but I seriously like the pace at 150 beats per minute (or more). I am reluctant to disregard Hal, but I like it better when the old pump is working a little harder.

Using the HRR formula is a new wrinkle for me... my "calculated max" is about 172. I went back and looked at all my runs since I got the Garmin. I had a point back home, before I traveled to Houston, where my measured heart rate was 185 on a very steep hill. Using 185 - 50 = 135 HRR and 135 + 50 = 185 for the value I get to multiply by the percentages. The HHR method seems to fit me better.

Any thoughts on this?

Dont use the calculations for max HR. They are only for "most" people. Your experience is different, as you pointed out you hit higher max values. Also, everything I read says that max HR has nothing to do with what kind of runner you are. I think I recall reading many distance runners have lower Max HR. Your Max HR doesnt change with training, your resting one days. You can also control your lactate threshold (LT) which enables you to run longer at a faster pace. It is the most reliable predictor of marathon success in fact. Tempo runs improve this the most. Your LT pace is about 30 second faster than marathon pace, or your 15k to half marathon pace.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Nice kick the last mile! You definitely must have found some running room...More fuel for the fire that you're training very smart lately. Ahh, recovery runs - nice to see someone else doesn't have them in their repertoire

It opened up a little, but I was still running around people up on the grass and back and forth across the street. In a way closing with a 6:12 bummed me out a little because my pace the first 2 miles was slower than I planned with the crowds. I would have expected a bit quicker. But then again, I was surging and darting in and out the entire race which isnt a receipe a super fast time or a great kick.

My HR by mile
1 - 172
2 - 183
3.07 - 187 (highest ever)
Avg - 173

The low average shows you just how slow the first mile was.

This race did screw up my week of training somewhat. Pounding beers after the race eliminated the 10 mile run I had planned the next day. And I wasnt able to juggle stuff around with family committments. My planned 46 miles ended up as 35 I believe. We'll see how I handle 48 this week when I already feel a bit wiped out from the 17 miler on Sat and short sleep from work the last week. I'll try and split up by 10 milers with very easy 5 milers (yes recovery!)

I never have them but I've been better about putting them in this year. I've increased the intensity of my tough workouts only a little bit, but added 2 recovery runs of 4-6 miles to allow me to increase the mileage base. One of the reasons I dont mind doing these is that I can run them at a faster pace than before. I can still keep my HR under 145 doing 8:45 miles now. I save my recovery runs for my runs at work when time is an issue. Work wouldnt be too happy if I was out doing 10 mile base runs in the middle of the day

 

[underhandtofirst]

Nice tempo run today.

2.31 mile warmup at 8:07 pace, very downhill (net 250 ft) so this was easy
4.92 miles at 6:58 pace, net uphill of about 50 ft. The first 2 miles are net flat, but some rolling hills, ran at 6:50. Next 3 miles are net uphill of 50 ft, but lots of rolling hills, averaged around 7:05.
2.31 mile cooldown at 8:05 pace, reverse of the same route from the warmup. Finished the last 3/4 mile at 7:30 pace.

Very happy with the run. Started out with legs a bit stiff, never really loosened up a ton, but just enough to stay strong. Pace didnt feel overwhelming, only really had to push the last 3/4 mile uphill to stay on track.

It was nice to have a good workout, I have been feeling a little down about my recent training. I have had to shuffle my running days quite a bit and even missed a day or two. Sleep hasnt been great either with getting paged for work issues. This was the first of 5 consecutive days I have to run to hit my goal for the week. Nice easy 5 miles tomorrow, 10 mile base run, then 5 easy and finishing with 18 on Sunday for 48 total. Next week is supposed to be a step back week (39 mi), but I'm going to do a bit more than scheduled (42-44 maybe) because I've been so erratic.

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

An interesting, at least to me, anecdote regarding my maximum heart rate:

In Houston last week, near sea level, flat, temp around 85F, and the relative humidity around 60% I recorded a maximum heart rate of 186.

Back in SoCal, 1050 ft. elevation, temp 90F and relative humidity ~25% I recorded a max heart rate of 167 with a much higher level of effort (there are several steep hills, ~200 vertical feet over 0.4 miles).

Anyway, I know different days have different results because of many different variables, but I have to conclude that humidity is a %#$@*#^!!#*!!!

The relative humidity where I am today is ~60%. I'll be interested to see how the run goes. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the temp is only around 70F, so there are 2 variables instead of just humidity.

 

[BleacherFan]

Anyway, I know different days have different results because of many different variables, but I have to conclude that humidity is a %#$@*#^!!#*!!!

Absolutely. Not a good day to run sans water today - .Dewpoint had to be pushing 70 and the humidity was right up there...

I did a 10 mile run trying to keep it easy going early on - went through 5 at about 6:40 pace and then got a little worse. I wanted to keep the splits even and for my shitty pacing I figure I did. I finished up doing the last 5 @ about 6:51 pace and it felt like a walk..

Oh well, more hay for the barn

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

The relative humidity where I am today is ~60%. I'll be interested to see how the run goes. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the temp is only around 70F, so there are 2 variables instead of just humidity.

max HR of 161 in spite of the 60% humidity... maybe it was a caffine thing when I was up at 186.

For the record, my Heart Recovery Rate, a high level of effort then walk for one minute, is 38 (maxHR - HR at 1 minute). From what I under stand that is barely average.

Today was my cross day, so I ran some hill iintervals at a 8:30 pace. It felt good to run up and then walk back down. My knees will thanks me tomorrow.

"More hay for the barn", is a wonderful phrase when applied to a satisfiing (or not so satisfiing) run.

 

[BleacherFan]

max HR of 161 in spite of the 60% humidity... maybe it was a caffine thing when I was up at 186.

For the record, my Heart Recovery Rate, a high level of effort then walk for one minute, is 38 (maxHR - HR at 1 minute). From what I under stand that is barely average.

Today was my cross day, so I ran some hill iintervals at a 8:30 pace. It felt good to run up and then walk back down. My knees will thanks me tomorrow.

"More hay for the barn", is a wonderful phrase when applied to a satisfiing (or not so satisfiing) run.

I wish I could take credit - I read it on someone's log...

For me, I am planning 8 "easy" today (6:50-7:00) and then I'm "wimping" out of the John Carson 2 miler tomorrow. I am going to take advantage of the predicited cooler temps tomorrow and I'm running a 5k in Lawrence. Supposedly this is a flat course and hopefully I can break 16 finally.

Good luck to everyone else who might be racing tomorrow.....

 

[underhandtofirst]

I wish I could take credit - I read it on someone's log...

For me, I am planning 8 "easy" today (6:50-7:00) and then I'm "wimping" out of the John Carson 2 miler tomorrow. I am going to take advantage of the predicited cooler temps tomorrow and I'm running a 5k in Lawrence. Supposedly this is a flat course and hopefully I can break 16 finally.

Good luck to everyone else who might be racing tomorrow.....

I'll be in the John Carson 2mi race tomorrow as well. Well sort of, I wont be 'racing'. My kids want to be in the race so I'll be pulling them in a wagon...maybe all three. That will cut into my time a bit :angry:

 

[underhandtofirst]

I hope everyone ran well today. This year I walked/jogged the John Carson 2 mile with my kids, pulling one in a wagon. They enjoyed chugging along getting cheered by the crowd. My 6 year old finished in 31:12, but certainly could have gone faster, he kept waiting for us slowpokes. My daughter is 4 and finished in 31:20. She ran all but about 1/4 mile. She took 3 short breaks riding in the wagon for about 50-100 yards. And she ran it all in jeans because she wanted to wear them since it was raining when we were driving to the race. My youngest, also 4 cheered from the wagon the entire race. All in all a very nice time.

After the race I ran the course in reverse and clocked 11:25 for 1.75 miles (6:31 pace). I was pretty pumped because I ran 10 miles this morning already at 7:46 pace (20 sec over MP) and I had just finished 2 slices of pizza. I dont recommend that part. Wasnt expecting to get in a tempo run today, but it seemed to work well.

Weather cleared up by about 9:30am and air was a little damp, but it seemed to be pretty good conditions for July for anyone running races today. Even now it is in the mid 60s.

Happy 4th to all!

 

[BleacherFan]

Weather cleared up by about 9:30am and air was a little damp, but it seemed to be pretty good conditions for July for anyone running races today. Even now it is in the mid 60s.

Happy 4th to all!

Yah, again, I made the wrong move running a race at 9am :fap: - on my cooldown I was thinking how beautiful the Carson race was going to be

Ran the 4th of July race in Lawrence - one of the most unorganized races I've ever been in. No people on the roads from mile 2 on and when the winner was halfway around the track at the end, someone finally told him to go double back and come in from the other side of the road. Luckily us 2nd and 3rd finishers let him go ahead of us - what a poorly run race - just the debacle at the end cost us 10-15 seconds....

Aside from that, the weather really made every start a little slow - my splits were very even but way off what I was shooting for. 5:20 for 1, 5:35,5:36 (1.18) - the course was also almost a tenth of a mile longer. I finished about a second behind #2 and about 10 seconds behind Kevin the winner.

Sub 16 just wasn't in the cards today - we ran together (the 3 of us) for over 2 miles and then Kevin put a move on that neither of us could answer. Kevin was shooting for 15:40 and the other guy was looking for Sub 16 as well.

Happy 4th to all also

 

[underhandtofirst]

Just completed my second highest weekly mileage total ever: 48.04. My highest was last Sep at 48.17. Legs are feeling it today after doing 17.62 on the last of 5 straight days. The plan calls for a step back week and 39 miles. Last week I thought about doing 44, but the way my legs feel today and how they were at the end of the run yesterday I think 39 or 40 sounds better. One thing that helped was that I had 8 or so miles at 2min over MP for recovery runs.

My 17.5+ run was 8:09 pace (40-45 sec over MP) and my legs were pretty wiped out at the end. I don wonder how I'll be able to carry the pace for another 9 miles at 40 sec per mile faster! Of course it will be at the end of the taper which should help, but it is a bit scary right now.

 

[BleacherFan]

Just completed my second highest weekly mileage total ever: 48.04. My highest was last Sep at 48.17. Legs are feeling it today after doing 17.62 on the last of 5 straight days. The plan calls for a step back week and 39 miles. Last week I thought about doing 44, but the way my legs feel today and how they were at the end of the run yesterday I think 39 or 40 sounds better. One thing that helped was that I had 8 or so miles at 2min over MP for recovery runs.

My 17.5+ run was 8:09 pace (40-45 sec over MP) and my legs were pretty wiped out at the end. I don wonder how I'll be able to carry the pace for another 9 miles at 40 sec per mile faster! Of course it will be at the end of the taper which should help, but it is a bit scary right now.

Nice bump - your legs will feel a little better after your run today or tomorrow. Whenever I am close to 'breaking through' mileage wise I always have a day or so where my legs feel flat as pancakes, then without a day off they seem to recover OK and it's back to normal. For me it's the start to another week of doubles - today my "texas double" consisted of:

5.1 @ ~6:35 pace 11:00-11:30am
7 @ ~6:29 pace 4:00-4:30pm

Hot day out there and it will only be worse tomorrow....

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

I am trying to learn to bring discipline to my pace... I am training for a 1/2 Marathon by using Hal's novice (free) schedule. After reading up a little and talking to a tri-athlete coworker I have decided to do tempo run pace for Tuesday and Thursday and long run pace for the Saturday/Sunday run. My fitness level dictates, according to McMillian's running calculator, that my tempo pace is about 10:15 - 10:40 and my long pace is 12:00-13:00. My resident tri-athlete said the biggest problem that new runners have is they run their slow workouts too fast and their fast workouts too slow.

Question #1: If I run my tempo runs faster than McMillian's recommendation will I still raise my lactate threshhold just as effectively? As long as I don't break down physically I want to run my tempo workouts faster if that is okay with respect to raising my LT.

The long runs are the challenge for me. I suspect as the distance goes up week by week it wil be easier for me to slow down to the 12-13 pace.

Question #2: How often should I re-evalute my level. That is, how often should I plug new times and distances into McMillian's running calculator to figure out my tempo and long pace?

Week 6 of Hal's program has a 5K race at the end. Should I use that result to update or should I do it sooner?

I am just discovering what my fitness level is... and it is still not that well defined. I suspect I could run, without killing myself, 3 miles in about 25:00 on a flat course/cool day, but right now I am using a 29:05 3 mile time for McMillian's running calculator.

Regarding heart rate:
max measured = 185
max calculated = 170 -182
Heart rate recovery = 38-39
resting = 50
9:30 pace (flat terrain) moderate effort level = 140-143
Plenty of other heart rates available upon request...

Question #3: Should I use heart rate to set my pace rather than McMillian's running calculator? I can go run an all out 3 mile race on a flat track Tuesday and use that time/heart rate data if that is what makes sense...


It is important that I train at the correct levels, finding those levels isn't easy.

Any thoughts from the experienced runners here?

 

[BleacherFan]

My fitness level dictates, according to McMillian's running calculator, that my tempo pace is about 10:15 - 10:40 and my long pace is 12:00-13:00. My resident tri-athlete said the biggest problem that new runners have is they run their slow workouts too fast and their fast workouts too slow.

That seems VERY slow - I would definitely base it off your HR if possible. Your resident athlete is for the most part correct, but when you define workouts you need to gauge those on what your planned race is. If you're planning for a more distance race like a half or a full, you don't want to be doing really fast (5k pace or shorter) stuff until you're 4-6 weeks out from your target race. I would also hold off on two tempo runs and stick with one for now - I've always thought of tempo runs as race pace runs done between 5-7 miles. So, if I was planning to run a half, I would go out and try to hold 5:30 pace for 5-7 miles and call it a day and do that once (maybe twice but I'm at a higher mileage)

The long runs are the challenge for me. I suspect as the distance goes up week by week it wil be easier for me to slow down to the 12-13 pace.

It may sound crazy, but you will get faster with the increased mileage. When is your goal race? What is your mileage at now? For a half, you may want to top out at a 15-16 mile run and do that a few times....

I am just discovering what my fitness level is... and it is still not that well defined. I suspect I could run, without killing myself, 3 miles in about 25:00 on a flat course/cool day, but right now I am using a 29:05 3 mile time for McMillian's running calculator.

So, right now for a 5k, you're about a 8:20 pace. Again, in a vacuum, it's tough to tell what your goal pace would be (how long running,mileage, etc). I would focus right now on upping the mileage - the one thing you need to succeed. The 2nd thing you need is a long run, start building up now and keep going. As far as other workouts go, I would stick with one hard effort once a week - maybe a local race or a hard tempo run. Some people like local races to get the adrenaline & legs going

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

Thank you for the reply.

I am not really a runner... more of a fat old guy that has lost some weight, was running 20 or so miles a week without any plan at all for the past 3 months, wanted to increase his workout intensity, started training for a 1/2M and as a final goal wants to run a full marathon and also lose my last 15 pounds of fat and put on 6-8 pounds of muscle over the next year or 2. I am training for a half marathon using this Hal's Novice 12 week plan for 1/2M plan. I am in week 3 now. I am going to run in this Heartbreak Ridge 1/2M race.

Oddly enough, my mileage has decreased since I started Hal's plan. I was running 2-5 miles per day 5 days perweek before I decided to run the race. As the plan goes through the weeks the mileage does increase. Now I am strictly adhering to Hal's plan. It actually has been a good thing in one respect because I am stretching and doing strength training (high reps/low weight for abs, core, upper body) in a much more deliberate and focussed way.

It is my first race in 20 years. I've read your times/pace... that is a level of effort I am not capable of at this point in my life. You are a different class of athlete than I. I just want to train at the pace/paces that will bring me the most benefits for the time I put in. If Hal's plan is flawed please explain what different approach you recommend. To be honest, a 24 minute 5K would probably be the best effort possible at my present level of fitness

My fitness goals are simple: finish the 1/2 Marathon on Setember 13 somewhere around 2:30, take a week off, and barring injury start Hal's 18 week Full Marathon training plan for this Carlsbad Marathon race.

After that I'll still run, I truly enjoy my time on the trail, but I am going to switch to a program a little more focussed on building upper body strength and flexibility.

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

Anyway, to reiterate:
1) Are there any suggestions on how often I should reevaluate my pace during the course of my training?
2) Do the paces called out by McMillian's running calculator for me seem too slow or too fast?
3) Anything else ???????????
4) I am MOST interested in running at the correct pace to gain the maximum benefits and how to determine that pace. My tri-athlete advisor laughed at me when I asked him... he said as soon as I figure it out it will change.

 

[BleacherFan]

Anyway, to reiterate:
1) Are there any suggestions on how often I should reevaluate my pace during the course of my training?
2) Do the paces called out by McMillian's running calculator for me seem too slow or too fast?
3) Anything else ???????????
4) I am MOST interested in running at the correct pace to gain the maximum benefits and how to determine that pace. My tri-athlete advisor laughed at me when I asked him... he said as soon as I figure it out it will change.

Just a preface - I don't follow any plan and I just follow my body. Part of this is because of my crazy schedule, I basically run when I can and I find it works for me.

1) Are there any suggestions on how often I should reevaluate my pace during the course of my training?

Since you're watching your HR - I would start with there. Keep as much data and maybe revisit after a month. If you do a 5M Monday monday at 9:00 pace w/ an avergage HR of 170 and in a month you note that both your time and your HR improve - then yhere's your training.

2) Do the paces called out by McMillian's running calculator for me seem too slow or too fast?

Personally, I've never seen those caculators but that seems slow to me

4) I am MOST interested in running at the correct pace to gain the maximum benefits and how to determine that pace. My tri-athlete advisor laughed at me when I asked him... he said as soon as I figure it out it will change.

He's right - the more you run and start tracking HR data, mileage data, you'll start improving. It's just the nature of the beast in some regards. If you're training for a half marathon (and it looks like a tough trail one at that), I would focus on stuff on the lower side of your HR. Say after a month, you feel most comfortable when running at an average HR at 145, then there's your target pace - from whatever your pace for that run was. You will find that as you run, that you will slowly be able to run 10 seconds / mile faster at that pace , etc ,etc. I would just continue doing that...

Hope it helps

 

[Guinevere]

Right Arm, I think you're freaking out a little about getting it absolutely "right." I say that respectfully -- please keep in mind that Hal's plans are one-size fits all, but no athlete is alike. Use it as a guide, but don't worry if you vary it a bit because of other goals, or because it feels right for your body.

If you want to use the McMillan calculators, go ahead. I know a lot of triathletes who use them, and other who do not, and focus on perceived exertion (PE), or heart rate zone training. You will eventually find what works best for you.

Congrats on the accomplishments and good luck with the training. I also found running after losing a bunch of weight, and have more to go. I started using Hal's plan for a half 2 falls ago, but some health issues intervened and still haven't worked my way back. I'm hopeful I'll be ready by next fall! Today I managed my longest "run" (I'm doing run/walk intervals) of the summer, so I'm pleased that I've made some recent progress.

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

Right Arm, I think you're freaking out a little about getting it absolutely "right."

Yeah... I am just trying to use my workout time as efficeintly as possible and besides, I have to obsess on something! I am also concerned because a 1/2M is a long way for me. I am confident I can finish that race, but I don't take it lightly and I want to be prepared as well as possible.

Good luck with your training!

 

[BleacherFan]

Bump...

Well it doesn't look great on paper, but the weather was tough last week to train in. I managed 11 sessions in 7 days - 62 miles @ an average pace of 6:35 - just about 90% of my eventual marathon pace goal.

Two workouts on Wed and Thurs - 12x400 at marathon pace - nailed them all within a second of each other. A nice long run of 12 miles and a handful of 6:30 or so 5M afternoon runs.

Sad mileage with 4 doubles but I'll take what I can get these days - you make time I guess..No races planned for me - maybe a low key half marathon in September not done at 100% and some shorter stuff...

 

[underhandtofirst]

Nice tempo run today.

2.31 mile warmup at 8:07 pace, very downhill (net 250 ft) so this was easy
4.92 miles at 6:58 pace, net uphill of about 50 ft. The first 2 miles are net flat, but some rolling hills, ran at 6:50. Next 3 miles are net uphill of 50 ft, but lots of rolling hills, averaged around 7:05.
2.31 mile cooldown at 8:05 pace, reverse of the same route from the warmup. Finished the last 3/4 mile at 7:30 pace.

Very happy with the run. Started out with legs a bit stiff, never really loosened up a ton, but just enough to stay strong. Pace didnt feel overwhelming, only really had to push the last 3/4 mile uphill to stay on track.

It was nice to have a good workout, I have been feeling a little down about my recent training. I have had to shuffle my running days quite a bit and even missed a day or two. Sleep hasnt been great either with getting paged for work issues. This was the first of 5 consecutive days I have to run to hit my goal for the week. Nice easy 5 miles tomorrow, 10 mile base run, then 5 easy and finishing with 18 on Sunday for 48 total. Next week is supposed to be a step back week (39 mi), but I'm going to do a bit more than scheduled (42-44 maybe) because I've been so erratic.

Ran the same tempo run as above.

warmup at 8:14 pace
4.92 at 6:57 pace. First 2 miles at 6:55, last 3 at 6:58
2.31 cooldown at 7:51, finished last 1.5 at 7:32 (just over MP) the best part was that it wasnt really hard

Really nice effort today. The first tempo run was an average HR of 157, today was 151 and the total time was about 30 seconds faster overall. I've got a bit more sleep recently so that helped. My legs felt pretty good today after a day off yesterday.

I've been planning on responding to Right arm's post about paces, but havent been able to set aside the time. I'll try and do that later today

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

I've been planning on responding to Right arm's post about paces, but havent been able to set aside the time. I'll try and do that later today

Awesome! I await your wisdom. Seriously, the guys that are offering their experience and know-how are a huge benefit to me. Thank you.

I ran 5 miles in 59:30 Sunday in accordance with Hal's plan. My pace was erratic, 9:00 -14:00, but the average of 12:00/miles was what I was shooting for. I had to run the last 0.5 mile at 9:00 -9:30 to stay under an hour for 5 miles. HR was pretty flat, around 130 for most of the run, but shot up to 160 for the finish. My level of effort was easy then moderate at the end. I only ran fast enough to get under 60 minutes. I could have run faster for longer. My fitness level is starting to surprize me. I jogged 1.5 miles to the courts, played tennis for 2 hours in the morning, and then jogged 5 miles 7 hours later.

Tonight I plan on 3.5 miles at a <10:00/mile pace... maybe a 9:00 pace depending on how strong I feel. Yesterday was a rest day for my legs and I usually feel pretty strong with no knee pain after a rest day.

Another question... My pace plot from the garmin is not flat. It is an undulating sinusoidal waveform. It is becoming clear to me that not only do I need to know the right pace to run, I need to know how to set that pace mentally and without too much wasted effort. Any secret runner's tricks that help you hold a consistant pace?

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

Yesterday my legs were d-e-a-d dead! 10:34/mile pace for the mandatory 3.5 miles with a 140-150 HR for the whole unpleasant ordeal. I didn't even want to finish the run but I did it anyway. Thank goodness tonight was just an easy crosstraining 40 minute bike ride. Tommorow is likely to be a better day.

Still hopefully awaiting some more pace wisdom...

 

[BleacherFan]

Kinda fitting I stumbled upon this article today - given the horrible running weather we've had this month:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/health/n...&oref=login


I was so spent on my workout on Wednesday, I ran 16 quarters instead of 14

 

[TallerThanPedroia]

So, the fact that, even after two years of distance running, I break into a sweat ridiculously easily is a good thing?

 

[BleacherFan]

So, the fact that, even after two years of distance running, I break into a sweat ridiculously easily is a good thing?

From what I've been told it's absolutely a good thing - your body knows that you're starting to work hard and starts to cool you down before your core temps get too high.

 

[sass a thon]

Kinda fitting I stumbled upon this article today - given the horrible running weather we've had this month:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/health/n...&oref=login
I was so spent on my workout on Wednesday, I ran 16 quarters instead of 14

The solution is simple. Come to Texas, run every day for two weeks, and then go home.

I struggled running a fast 5 miles on Saturday morning. It was 78 and humid at 6:30am. Ugh.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Last 4 days have been a bit of a bummer. It started on Sat when I tweaked my right calf playing with the kids. It was minor but it forced me to miss my first long run since last October. Instead of doing 17 on Sunday to get to 48 for the week, I ended up with 31. This was my lowest mileage week since early May.

Sunday I was limping around anytime I sat for any length of time. I got through cutting the grass and it felt better. This was a good indication that it wasnt too bad and it would respond after warming it up.

I considering running the 17 miles on Monday morning, but decided taking it a bit easier would allow me to continue on with my schedule without further delay. Instead I ran a moderately easy 6 miles on Monday in preparation for my first interval workout in months.

Today I had 9 miles scheduled with 6x800 at 5k pace with 2 mins rest. I warmed up with 3.7 at about 7:45 pace. It is downhill quite a bit (net -150 ft), but was probably a bit too fast. Didnt feel that tough so that was good. The calf wasnt an issue either, another good sign. I have a big problem with intervals because I run them too fast. My goal was to run 3:02-3:04. My times were 2:56, 2:57, 3:03 with 2:04 of rest in between. With about 300m left in my 3rd interval I felt my right hammy tighten a bit. I was trying to push it a bit to keep on pace around the turn. I was able to relax and finish the last 300m without much more pain, but I decided to end it there. I took it easy on the run home (1 1/4 miles). Total miles 6.7 at 7:42 avg.

It sucked not being able to finish the workout, but I stopped in time to prevent a bigger injury. I iced it when I got home and it feels ok now. I should be good to go with my scheduled 12 miles tomorrow.

The weather hasnt been too bad the last 2 days. yesterday pm was mid 70s and humid, but I got a nice breeze running along the Charles River which made it ok. Today was mid 60s and humid, but not bad at all really.

 

[BleacherFan]

My goal was to run 3:02-3:04. My times were 2:56, 2:57, 3:03 with 2:04 of rest in between. With about 300m left in my 3rd interval I felt my right hammy tighten a bit. I was trying to push it a bit to keep on pace around the turn. I was able to relax and finish the last 300m without much more pain, but I decided to end it there. I took it easy on the run home (1 1/4 miles). Total miles 6.7 at 7:42 avg.

Nice workout nonetheless - those are pretty consistent splits - and you tell me I'm picky about being off a few seconds on my intervals :c070:

When is your 5k 'time trial' - at Good Times you should have no problem hitting 18:40

Dave

 

[underhandtofirst]

Nice workout nonetheless - those are pretty consistent splits - and you tell me I'm picky about being off a few seconds on my intervals :c070:

When is your 5k 'time trial' - at Good Times you should have no problem hitting 18:40

Dave

The splits were consistent, but too fast. I was on my way to another sub-3:00 800 on the 3rd repeat. I was sucking wind pretty bad after the last one, which of course is the goal, but it was more than expected. I'm not sure how I would have completed the last 3 near that pace even with a race-type effort.

I'm looking at Aug 12 for my 5k time trial. I'll use in in place of my next interval workout. It will be a couple days after a 16 miler with 12 at MP, so I wont be fresh. The goal will be to get close to 19 mins, although 19:30 wouldnt be a bad showing considering I wont do any taper for it.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Yesterday my legs were d-e-a-d dead! 10:34/mile pace for the mandatory 3.5 miles with a 140-150 HR for the whole unpleasant ordeal. I didn't even want to finish the run but I did it anyway. Thank goodness tonight was just an easy crosstraining 40 minute bike ride. Tommorow is likely to be a better day.

Still hopefully awaiting some more pace wisdom...

How many days per week are you running? Cross training? Remember your legs need a day off from time to time to recover and rebuild.

 

[moondog80]

The splits were consistent, but too fast. I was on my way to another sub-3:00 800 on the 3rd repeat. I was sucking wind pretty bad after the last one, which of course is the goal, but it was more than expected. I'm not sure how I would have completed the last 3 near that pace even with a race-type effort.

I'm looking at Aug 12 for my 5k time trial. I'll use in in place of my next interval workout. It will be a couple days after a 16 miler with 12 at MP, so I wont be fresh. The goal will be to get close to 19 mins, although 19:30 wouldnt be a bad showing considering I wont do any taper for it.

Training for the Downtown (Providence) 5K last year, I was doing 800s with roughly similar results as you, although my distance base wasn't anywhere near yours (maybe 25 miles a week from June on). I ended up running a 19:22, so that 19:00 should be well within reach.

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

How many days per week are you running? Cross training? Remember your legs need a day off from time to time to recover and rebuild.

I had a complete rest day on the previous Friday and no leg work on Monday, just upper body strength and stretching. I am following Hal's plan, the plan found at this link , almost exactly. Today is week five, day two. My 4 mile tempo run for today is already in the bank.

I overdid it that Sunday with tennis and a jog in the morning and then the 5 miles in the afternoon. It took me longer to recover than I expected. I felt much better the next workout. For the record I ride a mountain bike for my cross training days.

A question about Garmin Forerunner model 305. I have had two separate instances where the data has failed to upload to my laptop (PC). It really bugged me. Has anyone else had that issue? I've had to reset everything and lose that particular data, which makes me mad as a hornet.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Training for the Downtown (Providence) 5K last year, I was doing 800s with roughly similar results as you, although my distance base wasn't anywhere near yours (maybe 25 miles a week from June on). I ended up running a 19:22, so that 19:00 should be well within reach.

Thanks for the info. Did you opt out of the final three 800s like I did? :c070: I'd love to do 19:00, but just continuing my streak of PRs in races will be good enough for me.

I had a complete rest day on the previous Friday and no leg work on Monday, just upper body strength and stretching. I am following Hal's plan, the plan found at this link , almost exactly. Today is week five, day two. My 4 mile tempo run for today is already in the bank.

How did you do the tempo run? What were your paces by mile or better yet half mile?

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

How did you do the tempo run? What were your paces by mile or better yet half mile?

4 miles, flat, crappy asphault surface. My average pace was 10:34. McMillian's running calculator, found at this link , has my projected tempo pace at 10:23 - 10:45.

I am not very adept at setting my pace, even with the Garmin as a tool. I much prefer listening to my iPod rather than the pace alerts. The endorphins come sooner with music! So, I look at the display and as the run goes on I figure out how fast I have to run to finish at the right average pace. I know... not very disciplined.

Typically I start out fast @ 8:00 - 8:30, slow down a little in the middle to ~11:30, and then speed up the last mile or so to make the final pace turn out right. I know... not very disciplined.

Thursday I am going to run my fastest and see what happens. 4 miles are required, so I am going to do a 1/2 mile warm up, then run my best flat 3 miles, then a 1/2 mile cooldown jog for my training. I will use that data to recalulate in the McMillian Running calculator linked above.

I am really pissed that I lost all my previous Garmin data when I exported it from the Training Center software. I love the Garmin when it works right, but between corrupted data files that won't allow data transfer, and my experience with export/import bugs, I am very close to getting my money back and going for a Polar or a Suunto.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Typically I start out fast @ 8:00 - 8:30, slow down a little in the middle to ~11:30, and then speed up the last mile or so to make the final pace turn out right. I know... not very disciplined.

That is quite a range. A 3-3.5 per mile difference is huge. It must feel like the difference between running and walking.

Starting out fast is a great way to fizzle out in the end. A tempo run should start out comfortable, speed up for the middle then end somewhat comfortable.

 

[the_right_arm_of_God]

That is quite a range. A 3-3.5 per mile difference is huge. It must feel like the difference between running and walking.

Starting out fast is a great way to fizzle out in the end. A tempo run should start out comfortable, speed up for the middle then end somewhat comfortable.

Thank you for the information. I will try to follow that template next time and in the future.

My problem is that I am torn between running just because I enjoy it and running to train for a race (and improve my fitness level).

I guess I need to get busy and do it right.

 

[underhandtofirst]

Thank you for the information. I will try to follow that template next time and in the future.

My problem is that I am torn between running just because I enjoy it and running to train for a race (and improve my fitness level).

I guess I need to get busy and do it right.

You should do it so you enjoy it. If you dont enjoy running hard, then enjoy just going out for a run. No sense in grinding yourself into dust if it isnt enjoyable. Get your fitness level up then think about racing. Use a race in the future as a goal. Set certain short term goals that will allow you to take the next step in fitness or racing if that's what you want to be able to do. You can still improve your fitness without racing. Many people here run with lesser intensity in the offseason just improving fitness. You cant train hardcore 12 months a year or you'll burn out.

It is tough to run slow...believe me I deal with it every day. But over time it happens. A few years ago I was dying running 5 miles in 50 mins.