Ironic that those people will vote for VladGotta be Ohtani unless youre one of the people who think a guys team has to make the playoffs to be worthy of the MVP
To be fair, Vlad's team was in contention until the last day of the season.Ironic that those people will vote for Vlad
What I've heard others say is that "Ohtani wasn't the best hitter or pitcher in the AL."I’m a bit surprised that Guerrero has cleared ten percent of votes here given how sizably Ohtani’s total contributions outpace his. I really don’t get the case for Guerrero here, and don’t tell me about team performance in a sport like baseball as a factor for picking an MVP. The separation between them isn’t as cavernous as the one between Trout and Miggy in 2012, granted, but at least there I could squint and see giving Miggy credit for winning the Triple Crown even if I think that isn’t in and of itself all that relevant to who contributed the most to his team.
So did Pedro Martinez.It's Ohtani and it's not close. He's doing shit no one ever did, Babe Ruth be damned.
I'll bite. I understand the historical significance of what he's doing, and I'd certainly have no problem giving him the award for this year - but what do we do with him going forward? If Ohtani comes back next year and has just a "decent" or even a "good" season at the plate (slashes .250, knocks in 10-20 homers), but posts a 3.18 ERA again - or vice versa, has a stellar offensive year but puts up a 5+ ERA, are we going to give him the MVP just because starting pitchers seldom have even competitive offensive seasons?What I've heard others say is that "Ohtani wasn't the best hitter or pitcher in the AL."
I'm with you -- I think those folks are being far too dismissive of someone being among the best hitters and pitchers (his 3.18 ERA was 8th best in the AL among everyone with 120+ IP) in a way that pretty much no one has ever done in the history of the sport, and certainly not since Babe Ruth's 1919, his first BABE RUTH hitting season and his last as a pitcher.
Bullet Rogan would like a word with you. But he's the only comp.It's Ohtani and it's not close. He's doing shit no one ever did, Babe Ruth be damned.
If he has a great year at the plate but a mediocre one on the mound, he's barely a step above a regular DH in that case. DHs have historically gotten short shrift in MVP voting because they don't play defense. I'd expect similar if Ohtani doesn't pitch exceptionally well. Same if he pitches great and hits poorly. He might get Cy Young consideration but pitchers tend to have to be otherworldly or lack competition to be MVP contenders.I'll bite. I understand the historical significance of what he's doing, and I'd certainly have no problem giving him the award for this year - but what do we do with him going forward? If Ohtani comes back next year and has just a "decent" or even a "good" season at the plate (slashes .250, knocks in 10-20 homers), but posts a 3.18 ERA again - or vice versa, has a stellar offensive year but puts up a 5+ ERA, are we just going to give him the MVP just because starting pitchers seldom have competitive offensive seasons?
I love Pedro more than some of my own family members.So did Pedro Martinez.
If he's pretty easily the best player in baseball yes. If he's not then no he doesn't get the award just because he hits and pitches.I'll bite. I understand the historical significance of what he's doing, and I'd certainly have no problem giving him the award for this year - but what do we do with him going forward? If Ohtani comes back next year and has just a "decent" or even a "good" season at the plate (slashes .250, knocks in 10-20 homers), but posts a 3.18 ERA again - or vice versa, has a stellar offensive year but puts up a 5+ ERA, are we going to give him the MVP just because starting pitchers seldom have even competitive offensive seasons?
He did only hit .229 in the second half.I feel bad for people who are struggling to appreciate Ohtani. WAR doesn't do him justice, I think he should have like, 18 WAR this season.
I KNEW I was gonna get schooled on my Negro Leagues erasure. Only fair.Bullet Rogan would like a word with you. But he's the only comp.
That's what I'm driving at - if someone has an all-time great offensive season, but Ohtani has a pretty good season at the plate and augments with 10 wins, who gets it? How do we define "value" - being the best at one thing, or doing two things very well?If he's pretty easily the best player in baseball yes. If he's not then no he doesn't get the award just because he hits and pitches.
Most years lately in the AL an 8-9 war season (depending on which site you use) wouldn't have been running away with the war lead.
This post kind of nails it. Where do you set the replacement level for a two-way player who is both a number 1/1a starter and a middle of the order bat?I feel bad for people who are struggling to appreciate Ohtani. WAR doesn't do him justice, I think he should have like, 18 WAR this season.
I think we need to separate things a bit here - it's phenomenally fun to have a two-way player like that, and since MLB is entertainment, if you're talking about 'value' above replacement then I agree - Ohtani is an incalculably higher draw than the equivalent replacement pitcher + DH.This post kind of nails it. Where do you set the replacement level for a two-way player who is both a number 1/1a starter and a middle of the order bat?
Ohtani's season breaks WAR, not just because you have to add his batting and pitching WAR, but because there just aren't replacement players who can assume his unique role.
Yes, I completely agree with this post. Ohtani is amazing, but I don't think WAR is underestimating him very much at all.I think we need to separate things a bit here - it's phenomenally fun to have a two-way player like that, and since MLB is entertainment, if you're talking about 'value' above replacement then I agree - Ohtani is an incalculably higher draw than the equivalent replacement pitcher + DH.
In terms of on-field baseball value, though, it certainly adds some amount of additional value, but I think we had a discussion a while back about trying to ballpark that - I don't think it's really that high to be honest, because it's basically the WAR value of having an extra roster slot. Which would be hugely valuable if rosters were capped at like 18 or something, but with 26 the amount of value you'd get to add a 27th isn't super high to be honest.
TangoTiger's statement was that value was a 'rounding error' View: https://twitter.com/tangotiger/status/1410118255063207944
, and even the BaseballProspectus convoluted argument about why that wasn't right eventually concludes "And we can start to see how that value can be a few tenths of a win. That’s not huge, but it’s real value." https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/68403/baseball-therapy-the-war-over-ohtanis-value/