Round 2: Celtics vs Cavs

[benhogan]

But they did turn it back on after they fell behind by 9! And then they turned it off again. Ugh.

It's not really scoreboard-related. It's the approach they were taking early.

There's more to defense than this BUT my "oh crap they aren't playing with intensity tonight" antenna goes up immediately when the CAVs ball handlers aren't being harrassed in the half-court (I prefer 3/4 court defensive intensity with the bench advantage Boston owns)

I especially want Jrue, Jaylen, & Co bodying/bumping/getting up & under CAVs players the moment they touch the ball. Force the Refs to whistle them for a foul.

My concern started in Q1 last night. I pretty much raised the white flag on their D somewhere in the 2nd half

need to pick up the on-ball defense.

lackadaisical, just letting the CAVs comfortably get into sets

expect much better defense from Jrue

have they pressured the ball once on D?

picking up D under the 3pt line is pathetic

shitty defense all night

just cut and paste G2 Miami thread here

36pt Q3 for the CAVs

and Jaylen gets beat back door

I just don't understand why Jrue & Brown aren't getting physical with Dono or Garland or Strus when they initiate from the top, they are standing 3' away letting them operate

 

[jezza1918]

Maybe looking ahead too soon, but I am becoming deeply concerned they get worked by a Minnesota or OKC. I was ok with calling Game 2 against Miami an aberration due to historically good shooting even if the effort didn't look great, but after last night I think it's clear that these Brown and Tatum led teams still have legitimate issues with consistent energy and effort in playoff games and it could be a self-inflicted and totally unnecessary fatal flaw against a West team that is going to be leaps and bounds better than whoever they'll have faced in the East. It's also clear at this point that they have no home court advantage. Thankfully they're a good road team, but the sample size at home keeps growing and it's not good.

It's getting frustrating being a fan of these Celtics teams. They're like the polar opposite of the overachieving Stevens teams in the late 2010s that you knew didn't have the horses but were an absolute joy to root for. These guys are the most talented team in the dance but you still never know from game to game whether or not they'll show up and it's maddening.

The only thing I disagree with is "unnecessary." Just because it's mental and not physical doesn't mean you can automatically fix it or 'coach it up.' That said, it does make it more maddening because it SEEMS like something they should be able to address.
And I also agree that it's their biggest flaw, will it be fatal? Time will tell. Because we can panic all we want about MN and OKC but plenty of flaws we can point out with them as well.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

Maybe looking ahead too soon, but I am becoming deeply concerned they get worked by a Minnesota or OKC. I was ok with calling Game 2 against Miami an aberration due to historically good shooting even if the effort didn't look great, but after last night I think it's clear that these Brown and Tatum led teams still have legitimate issues with consistent energy and effort in playoff games and it could be a self-inflicted and totally unnecessary fatal flaw against a West team that is going to be leaps and bounds better than whoever they'll have faced in the East. It's also clear at this point that they have no home court advantage. Thankfully they're a good road team, but the sample size at home keeps growing and it's not good.

It's getting frustrating being a fan of these Celtics teams. They're like the polar opposite of the overachieving Stevens teams in the late 2010s that you knew didn't have the horses but were an absolute joy to root for. These guys are the most talented team in the dance but you still never know from game to game whether or not they'll show up and it's maddening.

I hope if they get through this series they draw the Knicks next round because it will be a crash course in the kind of intensity they will need. The Celtics seem to draw more energy from their offense than their defense, which can be troubling in those situations where the shots aren't falling. I don't like the idea that shooting better will make their defense better, even if it is objectively true, they need to attack every defensive possession the same no matter what happened on the other end.

 

[bosockboy]

I hope if they get through this series they draw the Knicks next round because it will be a crash course in the kind of intensity they will need. The Celtics seem to draw more energy from their offense than their defense, which can be troubling in those situations where the shots aren't falling. I don't like the idea that shooting better will make their defense better, even if it is objectively true, they need to attack every defensive possession the same no matter what happened on the other end.

It’s the opposite. Their defense makes their shooting better. They are much better in transition and that gets their offense going and in rhythm. The constant in these stinkers is taking the night off on D.

It’s staggering this happens every series and they haven’t learned from it.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I especially want Jrue, Jaylen, & Co bodying/bumping/getting up & under CAVs players the moment they touch the ball. Force the Refs to whistle them for a foul.

I think there was a weird moment early in yesterday's game that really changed the flow.

Early in the game, the defenders, including Jaylen, were all up in Cleveland's shit. The C's got out to a 14-5 lead. Then out of nowhere, Jaylen off ball got whistled for a foul with nearly 8 minutes left in the quarter. It was, under no circumstances, a foul.

Normally, Jaylen plays the heavier early minutes in the 1st, and Tatum comes out and then re-enters towards the end of the quarter. Jaylen kind of went into a shell, and didn't want to pick up that 2nd foul, and the entire defense kind of took a step back from getting aggressive. They ended up losing the remainder of the quarter 25-10.

Jaylen then came out with about 3 minutes to go in the quarter. He didn't come back in until 7:22 of the 2nd to replace Tatum. Tatum to that point, played the first 16:38 of the game without a rest. It was 42-37 at that point, Celtics lead, and Cleveland immediately countered by bringing Mobley and Mitchell back in when Tatum sat.


That foul on Jaylen, while unnoticed in the grand scheme, seemed to really fuck with the early rotations, and it resulted in Tatum playing almost 21 minutes in the first half. The defense just went to shit right then and there too.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Maybe looking ahead too soon, but I am becoming deeply concerned they get worked by a Minnesota or OKC. I was ok with calling Game 2 against Miami an aberration due to historically good shooting even if the effort didn't look great, but after last night I think it's clear that these Brown and Tatum led teams still have legitimate issues with consistent energy and effort in playoff games and it could be a self-inflicted and totally unnecessary fatal flaw against a West team that is going to be leaps and bounds better than whoever they'll have faced in the East. It's also clear at this point that they have no home court advantage. Thankfully they're a good road team, but the sample size at home keeps growing and it's not good.

It's getting frustrating being a fan of these Celtics teams. They're like the polar opposite of the overachieving Stevens teams in the late 2010s that you knew didn't have the horses but were an absolute joy to root for. These guys are the most talented team in the dance but you still never know from game to game whether or not they'll show up and it's maddening.

It's fair to say what you did, but OKC just lost at home to an inferior Dallas team as well. Among the title contenders, there's no proven team that's been there, done that. While the Game 2 efforts in each series have been mind-boggling, the way to know if this team has matured is if they get off the mat and not make the same mistake again in that series. They did this against Miami but that team was pretty depleted. Cleveland is a team they should take care of, but they do have a superstar in Mitchell and a better supporting cast than Miami did so on the surface it will be harder to end this in 5.

One player I'm particularly disappointed in right now is Jrue Holiday. We were warned of his offense in the playoffs, but I thought him being the 3rd/4th option would get him a more favorable matchup and would create easier scoring opportunities. He's been awful offensively and last night was equally as bad defensively. He has to give more.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I hope if they get through this series they draw the Knicks next round because it will be a crash course in the kind of intensity they will need. The Celtics seem to draw more energy from their offense than their defense, which can be troubling in those situations where the shots aren't falling. I don't like the idea that shooting better will make their defense better, even if it is objectively true, they need to attack every defensive possession the same no matter what happened on the other end.

The intensity thing is overblown. Every team in every game wants to win and gives their best. They went out to a big lead and came back in the 1st half to counter Cleveland's run. They were in it mentally then. Then they miss 15 of their next 16 3 pointers and Cleveland makes a bunch and the game is over. We can break it down as much as we want to but it comes down to one thing: 3 point shooting on both sides. If the Celtics stay committed to shooting 3's and they make them, nobody can touch them because it opens up everything else they try to do offensively and it make them lock in harder on defense. That's kind of how every team is in terms of defense. If things are going well offensively, it brings out more emotion and teams tend to play better on the other end. It's very rare that there are defense-first teams in the NBA anymore.

 

[bosockboy]

Pretty good analysis here.

View: https://twitter.com/billsimmons/status/1788939047961866348?s=46

 

[Ed Hillel]

I mean:
View: https://twitter.com/stoolgreenie/status/1788930190498046030?s=42&t=-Ai-mpXJJ05V-SE-SPRBGA

 

[jose melendez]

The thing that freaks me out is how easy the Cavs were getting to the rim. It felt like they got there whenever they wanted.

 

[Auger34]

One player I'm particularly disappointed in right now is Jrue Holiday. We were warned of his offense in the playoffs, but I thought him being the 3rd/4th option would get him a more favorable matchup and would create easier scoring opportunities. He's been awful offensively and last night was equally as bad defensively. He has to give more.

Same thing happened in Game 2 in the Miami series.

 

[RedOctober3829]

The thing that freaks me out is how easy the Cavs were getting to the rim. It felt like they got there whenever they wanted.

There was no help defense a lot of the game. That is where we miss Porzingis the most.

 

[Auger34]

I mean:
View: https://twitter.com/stoolgreenie/status/1788930190498046030?s=42&t=-Ai-mpXJJ05V-SE-SPRBGA

@slamminsammya has pointed this out and I paid attention to it last night.

When Strus is on him, Tatum seems to be going to the weird turnaround one legged fadeaway a lot and it just hasn't been successful

 

[Jimbodandy]

For people smarter than myself: if you had to put a number (lets say 1-10 scale) how correlated is defense with offense? The D intensity was lacking last night, which is more of a mental thing...not trying to excuse that. But in general how much easier is to lock in on D after a made shot vs a missed? In a text exchange after the 3rd last night (at that point they were down 12 and were 6/25 from 3), my uncle said if they had just knocked down some of the open 3s the game is tied. I responded that if they had hit 3 or 4 more 3's they are likely up by half a dozen points or so because the D is likely to better after a made shot.
I mean, I know that they are tied together on some level...Im just wondering how tied together? What kind of metrics are out there for this? If this is too much of a sidebar for this specific thread and someone wants to PM that works too!
ps #celtsinsix

Not sure how easy it is to quantify it, but the connection is significant. Very good offensive teams provide an inherent deterrence to the other team scoring. Long rebounds and live ball turnovers start the opponents' next offensive possession at an advantage for them. They get fast breaks, 2 on 1, etc. from that. When they're consistently starting their offensive possessions by removing the basketball from the basket though, you're now starting your defensive possessions with set defenses, which are harder to score against on a normal day and twice as hard to beat with playoff whistles (or lack thereof). In some cases, offense is the best defense.

That said, this group has a history of losing defensive effort. Happened a lot last year in the playoffs. Has only happened twice this year. The results are pretty obvious.

 

[jose melendez]

There was no help defense a lot of the game. That is where we miss Porzingis the most.

I watched the game on every possession mode on the package since I had stuff to do today, but it was super apparent watching that way. It just looked like a layup line at times.

 

[RorschachsMask]

I gotta say one thing I’m genuinely confused about is why they seem averse to getting Tatum out in space. They are insistent on him getting the ball in the mid/high post, which gives defenses time to react.

Nevermind what him running PnR does as far as creating advantages for others, Tatum himself is averaging 1.40 PPP when running it…yet they’re doing it 6% less often than the regular season, which was already too low a number anyways.

Seems like an obvious adjustment for the rest of the series? Brad used to have him running PnR 25-30% of the time, it’s at 16% in the playoffs.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Other than Game 1 of the Finals, I feel like whenever this core gets down 10 points at any point in a playoff game, it’s been a loss. It’s a combination of it either being a night off effort-wise, or someone tries to take over and presses into bad shots.

I guess the good news is they have shown they usually bounce back, but at some point it had always caught up with them, as the margin for error decreases each round.

 

[RedOctober3829]

View: https://twitter.com/Cerrone_Battle/status/1788945581034852848

 

[RorschachsMask]

I gotta say one thing I’m genuinely confused about is why they seem averse to getting Tatum out in space. They are insistent on him getting the ball in the mid/high post, which gives defenses time to react.

Nevermind what him running PnR does as far as creating advantages for others, Tatum himself is averaging 1.40 PPP when running it…yet they’re doing it 6% less often than the regular season, which was already too low a number anyways.

Seems like an obvious adjustment for the rest of the series? Brad used to have him running PnR 25-30% of the time, it’s at 16% in the playoffs.

This guy has the synergy number, which includes passing. They score on almost 2/3rd of the possessions where he’s been the PnR ball handler. HAVE to increase how often they run it.

View: https://twitter.com/lissmx14/status/1788956388913279363

 

[jezza1918]

Other than Game 1 of the Finals, I feel like whenever this core gets down 10 points at any point in a playoff game, it’s been a loss. It’s a combination of it either being a night off effort-wise, or someone tries to take over and presses into bad shots.

I guess the good news is they have shown they usually bounce back, but at some point it had always caught up with them, as the margin for error decreases each round.

Not trying to discredit your point because I think it largely holds, but just from a factual standpoint they were down 10 a couple different times in game 4 vs bucks in 2022 (once in 1st quarter once towards end of 3rd). Ended up winning by 8. They were also down by 11 in 4th quarter of game 3 IIRC, took a late one point lead...but lost it in last minute.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

I gotta say one thing I’m genuinely confused about is why they seem averse to getting Tatum out in space. They are insistent on him getting the ball in the mid/high post, which gives defenses time to react.

Nevermind what him running PnR does as far as creating advantages for others, Tatum himself is averaging 1.40 PPP when running it…yet they’re doing it 6% less often than the regular season, which was already too low a number anyways.

Seems like an obvious adjustment for the rest of the series? Brad used to have him running PnR 25-30% of the time, it’s at 16% in the playoffs.

FWIW, I think the reason they didn't bother running PNRs last night is that they didn't need a screener to get a clear driving lane.

Tatum (and other Celtics) would ball fake a three, their defender would very aggressively contest, and Tatum/et al would blow by him with a clear lane to the hoop. The help defenders then didn't rotate to try and run the ballhandler off their line. Instead they rotated to the circle to deny a shot at the rim.

Tatum/et al would then either

1. pass to someone for an open three (which we uncharacteristically missed a lot of); or
2. they'd take a short midrange bunny from outside the circle (which we also missed a lot of); or
3. go to the rim, take contact, and draw a whistle (we draw and made a large number of FTs, which was good)

This is an example of taking what the defense gives you, which we sometimes talk about as a sign of basketball maturity. At least when people hit their shots we do

Boston shot under 40% from the field in the first, third, and forth quarters last night. In the second we made shots at something closer to our normal rate and we won that quarter by 6 points

 

[Auger34]

View: https://twitter.com/Cerrone_Battle/status/1788945581034852848

A really weird way of looking at the game...

I posted in the game thread that the only 3 players who were even mediocre were the JAYs and Pritchard. Everyone else was dookie. I think the only player who actually had a good game was Pritchard and even he missed a few wide open 3's

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Pretty good analysis here.

View: https://twitter.com/billsimmons/status/1788939047961866348?s=46

Bill sometimes doesn’t offer much when he assesses the Celtics, especially when shit gets real. He’s pissed off (understandable), but he just reiterates his ‘THEY ARE AN ALL TIME EMBARRASSMENT IF THEY DONT MAKE THE FINALS.’ That’s not basketball analysis, it’s a reaction. I much prefer listening to his takes on the other series.

 

[RorschachsMask]

FWIW, I think the reason they didn't bother running PNRs last night is that they didn't need a screener to get a clear driving lane.

Tatum (and other Celtics) would ball fake a three, their defender would very aggressively contest, and Tatum/et al would blow by him with a clear lane to the hoop. The help defenders then didn't rotate to try and run the ballhandler off their line. Instead they rotated to the circle to deny a shot at the rim.

Tatum/et al would then either

1. pass to someone for an open three (which we uncharacteristically missed a lot of); or
2. they'd take a short midrange bunny from outside the circle (which we also missed a lot of); or
3. go to the rim, take contact, and draw a whistle (we draw and made a large number of FTs, which was good)

This is an example of taking what the defense gives you, which we sometimes talk about as a sign of basketball maturity. At least when people hit their shots we do

Boston shot under 40% from the field in the first, third, and forth quarters last night. In the second we made shots at something closer to our normal rate and we won that quarter by 6 points

It’s been all playoffs.

Running PnR isn’t so much about a clean driving lane, it’s about getting the defense in rotation, and it opens up clean pull-up threes.

Running it as little as they have? It’s handicapping your offense, for no apparent reason. Especially when it’s been the most efficient action they’ve run in the playoffs.

 

[bosockboy]

Bill sometimes doesn’t offer much when he assesses the Celtics, especially when shit gets real. He’s pissed off (understandable), but he just reiterates his ‘THEY ARE AN ALL TIME EMBARRASSMENT IF THEY DONT MAKE THE FINALS.’ That’s not basketball analysis, it’s a reaction. I much prefer listening to his takes on the other series.

He’s correct that the defense is what feeds the offense. And once a series they completely forget it. It’s completely inexplicable.

 

[bosockboy]

FWIW, they generally don’t play well in Cleveland. Lost 4 of last 5 there including blowing a 30 point lead in March.

Time to see what they are made of.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Running PnR isn’t so much about a clean driving lane, it’s about getting the defense in rotation, and it opens up clean pull-up threes.

Running it as little as they have? It’s handicapping your offense, for no apparent reason. Especially when it’s been the most efficient action they’ve run in the playoffs.

So, you're not wrong

Although I'd add a bit to this.

The goal of a pick and role is traditionally to create an advantage when the ballhandler can't create one on their own. The point of the pick and roll-- in and of itself-- is to create the clear driving lane. Now, the usual assumption is that the defense will not want to give up an uncontested shot at the rim, so someone will rotate. And that leads to open shots elsewhere.

But it's the advantage that provokes the rotation that creates the open looks. Not the pick and roll.

I'm laying that out because last night Tatum/et al were creating the advantage/open driving lanes without a pick and roll. And the defense was in fact then rotating. Often multiple defenders would then rotate to the circle. And that was then creating the open looks. A bunch of which we then missed.

We could have done the exact same thing by starting with a PNR, and then again driven to the circle the way we did, and then again passed out to an open man, but it's not clear to me what bringing a second defender into the start of that action would make the guy at the end hit his shot

 

[RorschachsMask]

We could have done the exact same thing by starting with a PNR, and then again driven to the circle the way we did, and then again passed out to an open man, but it's not clear to me what bringing a second defender into the start of that action would make the guy at the end hit his shot

Space you create with PnR is much more valuable than just beating your guy off the dribble. PnR also opens up the pull-up three, which is a huge part of Tatum’s game, and the corner three for others. Instead the Celtics were trading twos for threes the whole second half.

They are averaging 1.46 PPP when he runs PnR, the team scores TWO THIRDS of the time they’ve ran it in this postseason. Running it as little as they have is atrocious coaching.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Space you create with PnR is much more valuable than just beating your guy off the dribble. PnR also opens up the pull-up three, which is a huge part of Tatum’s game, and the corner three for others. Instead the Celtics were trading twos for threes the whole second half.

They are averaging 1.46 PPP when he runs PnR, the team scores TWO THIRDS of the time they’ve ran it in this postseason. Running it as little as they have is atrocious coaching.

Edit: alright, I posted something snarky a minute ago and I'll take that down and update it with this:

If a train of thought take you to the conclusion that an NBA head coach doesn't understand how a basic basketball play works, then that train of thought has probably gone awry somewhere.

A better track might be to start with "If I assume Joe Mazzulla knows as much about basketball as me, and has the benefit of a large staff of assistant coaches telling him smart things, why might the team be doing what it's doing?"

Seeing where that leads you might help with the confusion that you seem to be frustrated by

 

[RorschachsMask]

So you see the main problem with our offense in game 2 was that we were taking too many open, catch-and-shoot 3s and not enough pull-up 3s off the dribble?

Got it

That’s not what I said? Or even remotely close. If you don’t realize what PnR does for offenses versus just going iso, I don’t know what to tell you. There’s a reason every other team’s top option has run it 25% of the time or more in these playoffs.

The numbers speak for themselves. It’s been both the team and Tatum’s most efficient action through 7 games, and they’re running it FAR less than they ever have, but if you want to argue for no reason, go ahead.

 

[lovegtm]

Space you create with PnR is much more valuable than just beating your guy off the dribble. PnR also opens up the pull-up three, which is a huge part of Tatum’s game, and the corner three for others. Instead the Celtics were trading twos for threes the whole second half.

They are averaging 1.46 PPP when he runs PnR, the team scores TWO THIRDS of the time they’ve ran it in this postseason. Running it as little as they have is atrocious coaching.

It's not just traditional PnR either. They usually initiate with a lot of good screening actions that often put the defense in rotation.

There was far less of that, far less of Cleveland in rotation, and thus, as you say, trading twos for threes.

Even worse, that put Cleveland in transition more often, because missed rim/paint attempts lead to that often.

 

[RorschachsMask]

It's not just traditional PnR either. They usually initiate with a lot of good screening actions that often put the defense in rotation.

There was far less of that, far less of Cleveland in rotation, and thus, as you say, trading twos for threes.

Even worse, that put Cleveland in transition more often, because missed rim/paint attempts lead to that often.

It played into why I was so frustrated last night.

Tatum has to shoot the ball better, everyone knows that. It would help if the staff put him and other players in better position. Running it this much less with him in the postseason has me legitimately confused.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

FWIW, they generally don’t play well in Cleveland. Lost 4 of last 5 there including blowing a 30 point lead in March.

Time to see what they are made of.

They actually played great in that game building a 30 point lead, then took their foot off the pedal and Dean Wade happened. Similar to last year when they blew a big lead and Grant missed both free throws at the very end of the game, either one would have won it.
I don't think there is anything particularly illustrative or predictive about those games.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

That’s not what I said?

You're right.

That was a snarky reaction and unfair, and I've taken it down

I'm going to make one final point, and then leave you to have the last word or words(s) in this debate.

I get that you have a number, and that number feels very powerful and important to you, and you're frustrated that the Boston Celtics coaching staff, in their incompetence and ignorance, did not appear to act on your number the way you wanted them to in game 2.

And I'll offer-- as an attempted kindness-- the old line that 100% of people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying

 

[lovegtm]

It played into why I was so frustrated last night.

Tatum has to shoot the ball better, everyone knows that. It would help if the staff put him and other players in better position. Running it this much less with him in the postseason has me legitimately confused.

I thought they did it well in game 1, and then started attacking the rim way too much in game 2. It's funny, because it led to good superficial "efficiency", with Tatum getting a lot of FTs, but didn't have the Cavs uncomfortable, and wasn't leading to as many good looks from 3.

It was a great case study in why raw player efficiency is somewhat capped in what it can do for an offense.

I bet if you nerded out and tracked possessions based on how often Cleveland's D was compromised and in rotation, it would have been way higher in game 1 than in game 2.

 

[RorschachsMask]

You're right.

That was a snarky reaction and unfair, and I've taken it down

I'm going to make one final point, and then leave you to have the last word or words(s) in this debate.

I get that you have a number, and that number feels very powerful and important to you, and you're frustrated that the Boston Celtics coaching staff, in their incompetence and ignorance, did not appear to act on your number the way you wanted them to in game 2.

And I'll offer-- as an attempted kindness-- the old line that 100% of people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying

I wasn’t talking about just last nights game though, you came in and gave your explanation on why you think they didn’t run PnR more just last night.

I’m talking about the whole playoffs, they clearly aren’t running it enough. You can give all the explanations you can, but Tatum in space running PnR has always been the best version of Tatum, and the team.

Running it 40% less is just not good game planning.

 

[RorschachsMask]

I thought they did it well in game 1, and then started attacking the rim way too much in game 2. It's funny, because it led to good superficial "efficiency", with Tatum getting a lot of FTs, but didn't have the Cavs uncomfortable, and wasn't leading to as many good looks from 3.

It was a great case study in why raw player efficiency is somewhat capped in what it can do for an offense.

I bet if you nerded out and tracked possessions based on how often Cleveland's D was compromised and in rotation, it would have been way higher in game 1 than in game 2.

I was yelling at him, Jaylen, and Joe in my discord lol. Mitchell and Garland kept running PnR, getting open threes for them or teammates, and we have Tatum and Jaylen going iso for two’s against a set defense.

I like iso, there’s a time for it, last night wasn’t the time.

 

[Leon Trotsky]

Edit: alright, I posted something snarky a minute ago and I'll take that down and update it with this:

If a train of thought take you to the conclusion that an NBA head coach doesn't understand how a basic basketball play works, then that train of thought has probably gone awry somewhere.

Another thing is we seemed to have jumped the gun on young Evan Mobley. I thought the only chance the Cav's had was for him to be good and that he didn't have it in him, but he definitely had it in him last night. He really exposed Al and improved in nearly every way, except picking up the 4th foul relatively early. I expect this to change just with the C's playing harder and better, but something to keep an eye on.

 

[lovegtm]

I was yelling at him, Jaylen, and Joe in my discord lol. Mitchell and Garland kept running PnR, getting open threes for them or teammates, and we have Tatum and Jaylen going iso for two’s against a set defense.

I like iso, there’s a time for it, last night wasn’t the time.

I sort of wonder how much the "Jayson needs to be a scorer!" narrative took them out of their offense.

More likely, they were leveling themselves by trying to prematurely adjust to what Cleveland might do to limit 3s.

 

[RorschachsMask]

I sort of wonder how much the "Jayson needs to be a scorer!" narrative took them out of their offense.

More likely, they were leveling themselves by trying to prematurely adjust to what Cleveland might do to limit 3s.

I’ve talked about it before, but one negative thing I say about this team is they tend to let the other team dictate their offense too often.

 

[Euclis20]

I’ve talked about it before, but one negative thing I say about this team is they tend to let the other team dictate their offense too often.

It's funny how when you win, it's because you took what they gave you but when you lose, it's because you let the other team dictate your actions.

I don't think the offense was the main problem yesterday, they missed a lot of shots they'd normally make, and it snowballed. The defense was atrocious, open 3's and a what frequently looked like a layup line. Mitchell has looked unstoppable at times, which is what stars do but it shouldn't be THIS easy for him to get wherever he wants, whenever he wants.

 

[RorschachsMask]

It's funny how when you win, it's because you took what they gave you but when you lose, it's because you let the other team dictate your actions.

I don't think the offense was the main problem yesterday, they missed a lot of shots they'd normally make, and it snowballed. The defense was atrocious, open 3's and a what frequently looked like a layup line. Mitchell has looked unstoppable at times, which is what stars do but it shouldn't be THIS easy for him to get wherever he wants, whenever he wants.

That’s why I’ve been posting about usage, touches, PnR stats, etc after wins too lol, it’s something I’ve been curious about going forward, and if they’ll adjust if the game calls for it. Last night they didn’t adjust at all.

The effort on defense was bad, and the gameplan on offense was stupid.

 

[Auger34]

There were at least 3 or 4 defensive possessions where the team looked like they didn’t have a clue what they were supposed to do. Leaving guys wide open or not guarding the ball.

I expect them to lock in in Game 3. Would also be nice if they didn’t switch at even the hint of a screen. Horford should not be guarding Mitchell. He will get BBQ’d

 

[brendan f]

Mitchell and Garland kept running PnR, getting open threes for them or teammates, and we have Tatum and Jaylen going iso for two’s against a set defense.

This was the game that I saw. The lack of in-game adjustments was disturbing. And if you noticed after game 2 against the Heat, Tatum quietly called out the team (i.e. Joe) for exactly this. This is not a record that plays well on repeat, especially as quality of opposing teams and coaches gets tougher and tougher.

 

[8slim]

The intensity thing is overblown. Every team in every game wants to win and gives their best.

I respectfully disagree. The players themselves often talk about their "intensity" or lack there of. It's simply human nature that there are games where, for a myriad of reasons, a team might be more or less focused and intense. Hell, I see this with my kid's high school teams.

Now, I agree that it can be a lazy shorthand to explain losses and/or poor play.

 

[Kliq]

Just venting here, as there is a lot of sound analysis in this thread, but I absolutely despise the way this Celtics team has been talked about by the general media. When they win, there isn't a peep from the national media about what a dominant performance the team displayed. Only when they lose do we get the "something isn't right" think pieces and analysis. It's made what should be a very enjoyable and entertaining time following a great Boston team a bit of a chore. I've had to ax some podcasts out of my regular rotation because I can't deal with the reactionary "Looks like the Celtics are going to blow it!" takes after every loss.

 

[RorschachsMask]

Just venting here, as there is a lot of sound analysis in this thread, but I absolutely despise the way this Celtics team has been talked about by the general media. When they win, there isn't a peep from the national media about what a dominant performance the team displayed. Only when they lose do we get the "something isn't right" think pieces and analysis. It's made what should be a very enjoyable and entertaining time following a great Boston team a bit of a chore. I've had to ax some podcasts out of my regular rotation because I can't deal with the reactionary "Looks like the Celtics are going to blow it!" takes after every loss.

It’s OBNOXIOUS.

View: https://twitter.com/SBNation/status/1788943123558588826

 

[Kliq]

It’s OBNOXIOUS.

View: https://twitter.com/SBNation/status/1788943123558588826

And Tatum is 100% right with his comments. The Celtics so far are 5-2 with a gigantic point differential in the playoffs, yet they are treated like a huge disappointment on the brink of an embarrassing collapse.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

You came in and gave your explanation on why you think they didn’t run PnR more just last night... I’m talking about the whole playoffs, they clearly aren’t running it enough

I misunderstood the conversation we were having and thought we were talking about game 2. Apologies for that.


If the point up for debate is "Tatum pick-and-rolls are good! We should do them more." Then I agree.

If the point up for debate is "Joe Mazzulla not running more Tatum PNRs is evidence that he's stupid" I might need more convincing.

I also might need convincing that Tatum running more PNRs would have changed the outcome in either of the games we lost

We lost game 2 in Miami because Porzingis and Jrue had awful nights, and the Heat hit a ridiculous number of 3s. We lost last night because we let Cleveland get to the rim way to easily and we missed a ridiculous number of 3s.

This might just be me, but I'm less than clear how Tatum running more PNRs early in the shot clock changes any of the big things that cost us those games.

 

[Auger34]

It's funny how when you win, it's because you took what they gave you but when you lose, it's because you let the other team dictate your actions.

I don't think the offense was the main problem yesterday, they missed a lot of shots they'd normally make, and it snowballed. The defense was atrocious, open 3's and a what frequently looked like a layup line. Mitchell has looked unstoppable at times, which is what stars do but it shouldn't be THIS easy for him to get wherever he wants, whenever he wants.

I agree with this.

The Celtics smoked a decent amount of bunnies and missed some WIDE open 3’s. After looking like a superstar for a run of games, White looked terrible.
The JAYs weren’t bad but neither of them were good enough to overcome the starting backcourt and Horford’s suck