R2#31/#60: CB Cyrus Jones, a Patriot

[Super Nomario]

I wasn't impressed with his tape. Like I mentioned before, he's too handsy and I see him getting a ton of holding, illegal contact and PI calls with the way he plays the receiver. His anticipation and his ability to read routes is not great. He's going to get obliterated by anyone that has a decent double move or someone that runs crisp routes. He looks like a decent returner but even that aspect of his game I found to be underwhelming. He's not explosive with the ball. He lets his blocks setup which is great but the special teamers in the NFL operate at a completely different speed. I'm going to pull for the guy but my expectations are low.

Just about every college corner has to adjust to the different contact rules in the NFL; I didn't see Jones as a special case in that regard. I thought his anticipation and awareness of route concepts was a strength for him; I saw him getting good depth in zones, avoiding rubs, etc. And I really liked his press skills at the LOS. He's not perfect - if he was, he wouldn't have been available at 60 - but I saw him as the best CB available.

Morgan Burns out of K-State was my hope for a player like Jones. He has better speed and better ball skills. A likely elite KR with the ability to provide depth at corner. I think I said as much in the draft contest.

I didn't see any tape of Burns - DraftBreakdown doesn't have any clips of him.

Asante Samuel had extremely impressive ball skills coming out of college. I believe he still holds the record for passes defended at UCF. Was he a 4th round talent made great by the Pats or was he elite talent that the Pats happened to pick in the 4th round? I completely see how this becomes a chicken/egg situation. Same can be said for Butler. A UDFA made an All-Pro or an amazing talent overlooked by the masses? If the coaching staff can turn and undrafted JAG like Butler into what he is now, why have there been so many failures? That's my question. If the flame out rate is equal to or lower than the mean then maybe I'm off base.

Couldn't you argue that if the Pats can identify underrated talent like Samuel and Malcolm Butler, why do they miss on guys like Dowling and Darius Butler? No one's batting 1.000 on draft picks at any position, or at developing talents into useful players.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Just about every college corner has to adjust to the different contact rules in the NFL; I didn't see Jones as a special case in that regard. I thought his anticipation and awareness of route concepts was a strength for him; I saw him getting good depth in zones, avoiding rubs, etc. And I really liked his press skills at the LOS. He's not perfect - if he was, he wouldn't have been available at 60 - but I saw him as the best CB available.

Fair enough. You watch way more tape than I do and your breakdowns are great so I hope you're right. Maybe I'm just focusing on the negative too much.

Couldn't you argue that if the Pats can identify underrated talent like Samuel and Malcolm Butler, why do they miss on guys like Dowling and Darius Butler? No one's batting 1.000 on draft picks at any position, or at developing talents into useful players.

Darius is an interesting subject. Had a decent first year after being drafted in the 2nd and then fell off a cliff only to resurrect himself in Indy. He's not elite by any means but he's a solid corner. What happened with the coaching there? I don't expect them to be perfect but they've invested some early round picks at the position and have seen minimal results.

 

[soxfan121]

Darius is an interesting subject. Had a decent first year after being drafted in the 2nd and then fell off a cliff only to resurrect himself in Indy. He's not elite by any means but he's a solid corner. What happened with the coaching there? I don't expect them to be perfect but they've invested some early round picks at the position and have seen minimal results.

The Patriots have "missed" on a few prospects, like Butler, because their type of coaching doesn't work for all players. Some players need positive reinforcement or other methods. Part of the reason the Patriots maintain a "different" system and look into the backgrounds of prospects is to find out whether the player can withstand the type of coaching that happens in a Belichick meeting room. Some players are better suited to another environment where mistakes aren't constantly reviewed.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7518409/bill-belichick-everybody-critic-film-sessions

Mike Reiss had a blog post (sorry, can't find it now) that indicated Butler struggled with this type of coaching, didn't respond to being "picked on" during film sessions, and that he ultimately washed out of Foxboro because of "what happened with the coaching" not because of talent.

This tangent started because of ESC's belief that the TECHNIQUE coaching is an issue. That may or may not be true. But when referencing Butler & coaching, is impossible not to bring up the very relevant coaching style issues that occur (infrequently) when the Patriots miss on a player's learning style or a "guess" about whether that player will be able to take their type of coaching. If there's a problem at that level - can the guy succeed in our coaching system? - then whether the coaches can teach him to turn and find the ball* is ... not going to provide many answers.

* FWIW, almost every very-good or great DB evaluator will tell you this - the turn and find the ball - thing is a big deal for almost every prospect and hard to coach. It is the plague of young corners, everywhere. It is a hard skill to learn, harder to teach, and is a very high level skill that few master. Louis Riddick had some comments about learning this skill back on draft weekend, wish I had taped the ESPN discussion segment. Basically, guys who "look good" doing this at the collegiate level are often guilty of cheating in other technique areas and playing sloppily to peek into the backfield.

Basically, this is no where near as simple as "turn around!" and the Patriots issues drafting/developing DBs is probably the result of a TON of factors, including some struggles in coaching a difficult technical skill.

 

[Super Nomario]

Darius is an interesting subject. Had a decent first year after being drafted in the 2nd and then fell off a cliff only to resurrect himself in Indy. He's not elite by any means but he's a solid corner. What happened with the coaching there? I don't expect them to be perfect but they've invested some early round picks at the position and have seen minimal results.

Before landing with Indy, Butler spent a year in Carolina for the 27th-ranked scoring defense and then the Panthers cut him. So he'd washed out of two places. My impression is that he always struggled outside and didn't tackle well enough for the Patriots' slot corner role (which has a lot of S/LB responsibilities), which was why he lost his job to superior tackler Kyle Arrington.

* FWIW, almost every very-good or great DB evaluator will tell you this - the turn and find the ball - thing is a big deal for almost every prospect and hard to coach. It is the plague of young corners, everywhere. It is a hard skill to learn, harder to teach, and is a very high level skill that few master. Louis Riddick had some comments about learning this skill back on draft weekend, wish I had taped the ESPN discussion segment. Basically, guys who "look good" doing this at the collegiate level are often guilty of cheating in other technique areas and playing sloppily to peek into the backfield.

Basically, this is no where near as simple as "turn around!" and the Patriots issues drafting/developing DBs is probably the result of a TON of factors, including some struggles in coaching a difficult technical skill.

Probably nine times out of ten fans complain about a DB not turning around, the issue is more that he was not in good position. If you're not right on a guy and you look back, that's when a 25-yard catch turns into a 60-yard touchdown. The offenses aren't stupid, either - one of the reasons they run fades against press man is because it's really hard to look back from that position because you can't see both the ball and the man at the same time.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Probably nine times out of ten fans complain about a DB not turning around, the issue is more that he was not in good position. If you're not right on a guy and you look back, that's when a 25-yard catch turns into a 60-yard touchdown. The offenses aren't stupid, either - one of the reasons they run fades against press man is because it's really hard to look back from that position because you can't see both the ball and the man at the same time.

Especially nowadays. Traditionally, DB's would keep their hand on a receivers back or hip so that he could find his bearings while risking a peak into the backfield. We've seen ref's throw flags because of outstretched arms by DB's where the ref's simply assume he's holding onto his jersey. QB may be the most important position on the field, but playing high level CB may be the most difficult.

 

[soxfan121]

Building on the above, that was what made Revis such a fascinating player to watch week-in and week-out. The nuances of playing CB at a high level are subtle. A very few human beings can run at top speed next to another human sprinting and cutting, and match their movement. It is a really rare skill - most people need to use a hand to maintain proper distance.

CB requires, IMO, a melding of physical skill (you just have to be able to run) plus spatial awareness (think of it as being able to always be on the cusp of that other guy's personal space) plus intelligence (knowing what the opponent is likely to do). It is a ridiculously specific set of skills. I would concur with the "most difficult" designation.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

CB requires, IMO, a melding of physical skill (you just have to be able to run) plus spatial awareness (think of it as being able to always be on the cusp of that other guy's personal space) plus intelligence (knowing what the opponent is likely to do). It is a ridiculously specific set of skills. I would concur with the "most difficult" designation.

Completely agree - I also think CB is one of the positions where a player is most likely to get mentally off - as reputation plays a large role in the officiating (as guys are making calls on things they can't actually see) - if you get a reputation for being handsy, you're going to get called for holding/PI even when you're not contacting the receiver, and I'm sure that's really frustrating.

During Revis's first couple of years - he was basically running backwards faster than most receivers could run forward, keeping a couple of fingers barely touching the receiver, and managing to react to the receivers body movements faster than the receiver could complete them - a receiver would start a cut and he'd finish it before they did. After his rookie year, he basically never held or grabbed because he never had to. As he's gotten older, he's still fast, but not as fast, and still good, but he has to hold occasionally now - but he doesn't get called very often because the refs assume he didn't if they don't actually see it. Whereas with guys like Browner (who yeah, is grabby), you can run in front of him and fall down, and you'll get a call - there's a ton of calls that are a combination of what the referee is guessing happened (because he can't see it) and reputation.

I could see that really messing up some younger players - random punishments is a really good way to make people bad at things.

 

[Old Fart Tree]

What has the coaching staff done for Malcolm besides telling him to "GO"?

To be fair, they also shouted "three corners."