Adam Caplan @caplannfl 3m3 minutes ago
#Patriots and former #Jaguars TE Clay Harbor agreed to terms on a contract, source said.
#Patriots and former #Jaguars TE Clay Harbor agreed to terms on a contract, source said.
Patriots and TE Clay Harbor agree to terms
- Thread starter soxhop411
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Great name for someone joining a Gronk boat cruise
Good combination of strength and agility if he hasn't dropped off his combine numbers
Good combination of strength and agility if he hasn't dropped off his combine numbers
Harbor visited NE on 3/10 along with RB James Starks and WR Rod Streater.
BB on Harbor, 9/23/15: "I'd say that Harbor is kind of similar to Marcel Reese. He's a fullback, tight end kind of guy. He sort of lines up in a lot of different places. They (Jags) use him in motion, change formations with him quite a bit. He's a good receiver."
So, Harbor is versatile which makes him an ideal depth player in a Williams/Hooman type blocking/goal line type role.
BB on Harbor, 9/23/15: "I'd say that Harbor is kind of similar to Marcel Reese. He's a fullback, tight end kind of guy. He sort of lines up in a lot of different places. They (Jags) use him in motion, change formations with him quite a bit. He's a good receiver."
So, Harbor is versatile which makes him an ideal depth player in a Williams/Hooman type blocking/goal line type role.
Harbor is no lock to make the roster. There are now 5 TEs on the roster(Gronk, Bennett, Harbor, Williams, and Derby). Williams is basically an extra tackle so the roster spot comes down to either Harbor or Derby. Harbor is versatile, but they have Develin as well.
Mike Kaye @mike_e_kaye 12m12 minutes agoCoral Springs, FL
Once played an entire half with a broken back. Was quick to embrace his role with a lot of mouths to feed on O.
Once played an entire half with a broken back. Was quick to embrace his role with a lot of mouths to feed on O.
Harbor is the closest thing to Hernandez we've had since the jail doors slammed. Similar size and workout numbers pre draft. Harbor is a bit slower and bigger, but he still clocked 4.69. Very athletic. 40 inch vertical.
As much fun as it would be to see a 5 wide set of Gronk, Bennett, Develin, Harbor and Williams, I doubt Harbor makes the final 53. If anything he seems like Develin insurance in case the leg injury isn't fully healed. They basically play the same position.
Cut Develin, use Harbor at FB in 2-back sets to block/provide an actual safety valve when passing out of the formation. They can also use him all over the field - pass protection in line or out of the backfield, receiver, flat option - from the gun. If he can actually carry the ball - like BB seems to imply with his comparison to Marcel Reese - all the better.
He seems too versatile to simply bring in for training camp fodder. I've done no research on him myself, but if he provides the kind of flexibility people have implied, I don't see him as as training camp casualty.
I think they really like Develin and wonder if this is a sign that they may play Williams more exclusively at - and have him focus more on - tackle. I'd love for that to be the case because it would tell me they see him as a positive internal solution at that position.
They had a lot of opportunity to use Williams at tackle last year with the injuries to Solder and Cannon and went with Fleming and Stork instead. I guess it's possible they change their minds, but I doubt Harbor, more of a move TE, factors into that at all.
I'm pretty psyched about what Harbor could be in this offense.
He doesn't seem to move like Hernandez despite the combine numbers. However, if you watch Reece play you can't believe the production that's possible with him either. If he brings half of what Reece does he's more than worth a roster spot.
Not sure where the Develin angle is coming from though. Harbor lines up in all kinds of places that Develin does not and cannot.
Maybe, but the difference is that now they could go into the season with Williams fully in a new role, as opposed to jumping into it last year when injuries forced their hand.
That said, I don't think Harbor is simply camp fodder either.
Williams had been working throughout his pro career as a tackle, including in the preseason last year before the Pats traded for him. After the Pats traded for him (about two weeks before the season opener), they moved him back to tight end. So he wouldn't have been jumping into tackle as a new role - he had been working there quite a bit. At any rate, they moved Fleming to left tackle and Stork to right tackle, both of which were new roles for them, rather than use Williams.
I guess it's possible that the Pats traded for him planning to use him at tight end and have since decided he's not a fit there. He's certainly not a lock to make the roster.
Yeah, just eyeballing from way out, I would guess Williams is more on the bubble (with the Bennett and Harbor acquisitions) than either Dev or Harbor.
Develin obviously doesn't have the resume that Harbor does but if I'm not mistaken he's been used at TE, FB, HB and out wide. Where else is there?
Sorry. My feeling is that, if Harbor can line up at FB - and I have no idea if he can, but when I hear "Marcel Reese", I assume he can - that the one position that you really don't want to duplicate/waste space at is FB.
Wow. Belichick compares the guy to Reese in how he lines up, not in skill or playmaking ability, and the whole board thinks Develin is now expendable... Crazy.
I don't. I think Williams is the expendable one. Like SN said, Williams saw very few snaps last season when the team was battling injuries on the line. If he isn't going to line up as a tackle, he becomes 4th on the depth chart for TE. 4th TE are generally unemployed before the season begins, especially if Develin can line up there.
Is Develin actually good? As in good enough to be a dedicated FB. He's certainly an FB but when is the last time a FB was worthy of significantly dedicated assets? He seems relatively replaceable.
Develin is a key part to the run game. He's a fantastic lead blocker and teams have to be wary of his receiving skills. Oh, and Belichick LOVES him. He was a defensive end at Brown turned HB. If he was from NJ Bill may have adopted him.
I like Harbor. I thought he was underutilized in Philly. I watched him last year in JAX and I wasn't all that impressed. He dropped a lot of catchable passes if my memory serves right.
Belichick loves Develin and Brady considers him "the best fullback in the league." Grain of salt and all that, but he does seem like one of those guys. I doubt he's going anywhere.
I'm sure opposing defenses are spending half the week game planning against his career 0.3 catches per game
http://www.patspulpit.com/2015/12/12/9891792/patriots-are-missing-james-develin-in-the-passing-game
I am on a phone so can't quote but that is pretty much the argument made in the article from when he was hurt.
I wonder if you could name any player to BB and he could immediately give a report and compare to another player.
If he couldn't he could probably bullshit you enough with vague comparisons that you'd come away impressed by his knowledge.
First, no, he's not a key part of the run game, nor a "fantastic lead blocker". According to the article you clearly read but applied no critical thinking towards points out, the team rushes for roughly 20% more yards per play without him on the field. As a fullback, his number one job is to, you know, help the run game. Lorenzo Neal was a "fantastic lead blocker". James Develin is the face of a dying position.
Secondly, nobody is wary of his receiving skills. Thats a fucking absurd statement. The team passes for more yards when the opposing defense has to respect the running game? No shit. That doesn't mean they're "wary of his receiving skills". It means you could probably put any FB - and no, Shaq Mason isn't a fullback - in the backfield and the opposing defense would have to respect the run. How does that make Develin a special talent?
That logic is the exact reason that teams average 1.2 yards more per pass out of the play-action over non play-action. Crediting Develin for an increase in passing yards while he's on the field is akin to crediting Barry Switzer for a Cowboys SuperBowl.
The only reason I brought up "cutting Develin" was to illustrate that I think Clay Harbor offers a higher potential than what Develin can bring to the table out of that position. The traditional FB is a dying breed. Harbor - if he can actually line up in the backfield and provide some run blocking - offers a flexibility that Develin never could. Either way, it was a lazy post on my part. I think there are better options to trim down the 53 - including the oft-cited Williams - in favor of Harbor. I also have no idea if Harbor can block out of the backfield, as my assumption when reading BB compare him to Reese - you know, a FB not a tight end - was that there was some run blocking in his history.
Regardless, Develin played defense at Brown, so I guess that makes him a fantastic Patriot.
Well isn't that a bunch of nonsense. I get that the rushing numbers are less because the other teams see Develin and stack the box. Meaning they respect the rush attack. What you don't seem to get is that defenses didn't respect the run game with Develin off the field. Which would obviously lead to slightly increased rushing numbers and decreased passing numbers. And no we're not talking JUST Shaq Mason as player B. There were other players factored in the backfield since the numbers were tallied from 2013- present. Develin has a defined role in this offense AND he understands the scheme. If you don't see how that makes him different than 90% of the players in the league than I guess we're at an impasse.
I don't think that Develin and Harbor are in any direct competition for a roster spot. Develin is the starting full back and I would be very surprised if he doesn't make the final roster. Clay Harbor has been in the league six years and this is his third team. He is a tight end who offers some positional flexibility in that he can line up as a receiver or as a full back. Regardless of the declining importance of the full back position I don't think the Patriots are cutting their starting full back with plans of starting a converted tight end on rushing plays.
If they both make the team, I suspect Develin gets on the field for conventional rushing downs and Harbor gets on the field for conventional passing downs.
If they both make the team, I suspect Develin gets on the field for conventional rushing downs and Harbor gets on the field for conventional passing downs.
One draft pick to watch out for is Dan Vitale, the "Superback" that has lined up everywhere at
http://www.patspulpit.com/2016/2/27/11125266/nfl-combine-studs-and-duds-running-backs
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Vitale looks interesting.
But my hope is that they use their best draft picks on the positions of need that they have not addressed fully in free agency -- offensive line, RB and depth in the secondary. I realize what you're suggesting is not necessarily mutually exclusive with that. But another option at a hybrid type (RB/TE/HB/FB) seems like a luxury item at this point given the what seem to me to be real pressing needs on the o-line and RB, in particular.
PS: What must AJ Derby be thinking now? He went from a guy who seemed to be in the mix to someone with some serious obstacles in front of him.
I mean, if we're going to be deleting ad hominem posts I assume that you just missed this one?
Correlation vs causation. I won't waste my time expounding on this idea in case it gets deleted.
As far as I can tell, Develin, Harbor, Bennett, and Williams are all free agents after the season, so FB/TE is a need, just not necessarily for 2016. Since few rookies contribute much as rookies, especially after the first round, it probably makes more sense to look at 2017 in terms of draft needs rather than this season.
He was a sixth round pick. The team's other sixth round pick was traded before the preseason for a guy who didn't even make the team. Derby was a longshot then and he's a longshot now.
The Pats didn't have a fullback between Heath Evans and James Develin (2009-2012), and they didn't have one last year after Develin was put on IR at the start of September. There's definitely a precedent for not having a dedicated fullback for week 1.
Good points both. I was being short sighted when I wrote that.
At the same time, I do hope they will focus most of their best chits on o-line and RB because the Pats' on field success in 2016 depends, in part, on upgrading those two positions. As to the line, Dante should help but they need better personnel, too.
I agree talent is a problem on the OL, but upgrading through the draft is somewhat problematic. At the end of the second round, they're unlikely to find a tackle better than Solder or Vollmer, and what good is adding another talented, unproven youngster to an interior group that already has talented, unproven youngsters? I think the ideal is getting a guy at 60 or 61 who can compete at guard right away and maybe move to tackle long-term, but throwing a couple of third- or fourth- rounders at OL seems like a waste to me. They have guys like that. I think that's part of the reasoning trading for Cooper.
EDIT: Please no one search through the archives because I'm sure I argued the opposite of this a month ago.
This team absolutely needs an infusion of young, talented (even if developmental) tackles and it's worth making the investment as soon as this year. I've gotta think we can plausibly improve on Cannon, Waddle and Fleming with a draft pick (or two) in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even 5th rounds.
Just because the junk we have now hasn't worked out in terms of developing a starting tackle down the road doesn't mean we should stop trying.
Just because the junk we have now hasn't worked out in terms of developing a starting tackle down the road doesn't mean we should stop trying.