My First Thread....just some thoughts that hit me last night

[Redsteel67]

During a bout with insomnia

It struck me how eerily similar what we are seeing now with the Red Sox is to what took place in New York in the early to mid 90s and I am really hoping that this Red Sox franchise can go on a similar run

In the Early 90s George S. was suspended from baseball and that gave Bob Watson and Stick Michaels the chance to develop players without them being traded away for George's new "Flavor of the Month" older player

By the time George got back the "Core" of the New Yankees was starting to establish and he couldn't really trade them at that point....he had the beginning of a dynasty. In true George fashion though he proceeded to fire Watson...reassign Micheals and elevate Brian Cashman into the position of GM because Cashman was young and easily intimidated by George's bluster.

to most more casual fans you could ask them who was to be credited with the long Yankee run of the mid ninties through 2004 and they will credit Brian Cashman......and he had almost NOTHING to do with those teams. In fact, truth be told, in the almost 20 years Brian Cashman has "run" the Yankees only one time did a Brian Cashman constructed team win a World Series (2009 and that was because Cashman went out and bought the best 3 free agents on the market and two of them are still albatrosses on his payroll today)

20 years......Billions of dollars spent....one championship he can be credited for


what does this have to do with the Red Sox?

I think the Red Sox have a similar and maybe even BETTER "core" of young players that they are about to go on a run with and If they do Dombrowski will be the guy credited with it. The real architects of this run however will actually be Theo Epstein and even more so Ben Cherington. Unfortunately in this play....Ben will have the role of Bob Watson....they guy that really laid the groundwork...refused the quick fix and in the end paid for preaching patience with his job....and his rightful place in Red Sox legend.

Bogearts
Betts
JBJ
Moncada
Benintendi
Swihart/Vasquez
Rodriquez
Wright
Porcello
Kopech
Pedroia
Barnes
Devers

these are all Epstein/Cherington players and a large part of this teams foundation going forward

Here is to hoping Dombrowski doesnt muck it all up

If you ever see Ben Cherington in a restaurant....buy his meal.....he deserved better then what he got

 

[lexrageorge]

Theo Epstein's 2004 team benefited mightily from Dan Duquette's earlier acquisitions (Varitek, Manny, Lowe, Damon, Wakefield, Trot Nixon, and, of course, Pedro). Kevin Youkilis, who played an important part of the 2007 team and the subsequent playoff teams, was also drafted by Duquette. Most of the 2013 team was built by players acquired or drafted by the Esptein regime. Quite a few of those players you mentioned were drafted when Epstein was running the show. The situation you describe where a sitting GM benefits from the fruits of his predecessor's labors is not all that uncommon. .

I do agree that Cherington does not always get enough credit for some of his moves and non-moves. He did have to navigate a dreaded "bridge period"; his famous 2013 signings were always intended to be stopgaps, and when he arrived most of the best prospects were a couple of years away from being ready. There were also some noticeable screw ups, most notably in Sandoval and Castillo, and he deserves his share of blame for those as well. Those signings could have been fatal to a less resourceful franchise. I'm in the minority in feeling that Lucchino deserves some blame there as well; as has been noted many times, Dombrowski took Lucchino's job, not Cherington's.

I do feel your implied concern about Dombrowski "mucking it up" is a bit of an overreaction. One of Dombrowski's first moves was to name Mike Hazen as his GM; Hazen had been an integral part of the team's scouting and drafting for many years. He's since acquired a number of key and complementary pieces to fill some gaping holes in the roster. He held the line on keeping his favored prospects with the exception of Espinoza. And no matter how one feels about the Pomerantz acquisition, Espinoza was still quite a ways away from making to the bigs, and Dombrowski gave up only one prospect (many deals for MLB roster players usually require 2 or more prospects).

 

[Plympton91]

During a bout with insomnia



what does this have to do with the Red Sox?

I think the Red Sox have a similar and maybe even BETTER "core" of young players that they are about to go on a run with and If they do Dombrowski will be the guy credited with it. The real architects of this run however will actually be Theo Epstein and even more so Ben Cherington. Unfortunately in this play....Ben will have the role of Bob Watson....they guy that really laid the groundwork...refused the quick fix and in the end paid for preaching patience with his job....and his rightful place in Red Sox legend.

If you ever see Ben Cherington in a restaurant....buy his meal.....he deserved better then what he got

First, Ben Cherington was offered the opportunity to work with Dave Dombrowski in the same capacity as Mike Hazen is now serving. Ben Cherington chose not to do so. One should not weep for Ben, who let his ego do the walking away. We shall see whether he ever gets another GM job.

Second, there is another list of players that makes up Ben Cherington's legacy:

Rusnay Castillo, $72.5 million
Allen Craig, $30.5 million
Pablo Samdoval, $90+ million
Justin Masterson, $10 million
AJ Pierzynski, $8 million.

Cherington took the entire assets of one of John Henry's funds and lit a match under it.

Tine has made the Porcello contract look like it may pay dividends and the Hanley contract not be a total disaster. But they each still have nutlike years to run.

 

[lexrageorge]

AJ Pierzynski's contract is a rounding error and was off the books long time ago. He was brought in as a stopgap when it was clear that some team was going to overpay Salty in both $$$ and years. No matter what you think of AJP, his name does not belong on that list. And Hanley's contract has got only 2 more seasons to run.

Finally, I'm quite certain that Cherington will have no issues getting another GM job. He's got enough connections and a World Series title on his resume. By all accounts, he left the Sox on good terms and worked to ensure a smooth transition for Dombrowski. It's not like he stormed off the set in a gorilla suit.

 

[Plympton91]

AJ Pierzynski's contract is a rounding error and was off the books long time ago. He was brought in as a stopgap when it was clear that some team was going to overpay Salty in both $$$ and years. No matter what you think of AJP, his name does not belong on that list. And Hanley's contract has got only 2 more seasons to run.

Finally, I'm quite certain that Cherington will have no issues getting another GM job. He's got enough connections and a World Series title on his resume. By all accounts, he left the Sox on good terms and worked to ensure a smooth transition for Dombrowski. It's not like he stormed off the set in a gorilla suit.

Pierzynski's signing was an unimaginative reaction among many in 2014 and 2015. It's not like he was the only catcher available at the time, either through free agency or trade.

And I don't think you understand the term rounding error, unless you think the true budget is $800 million per season.

Bottom line is that Cherington made massive mistakes routinely over two years. And yet, he still wasn't fired. He chose to leave after he was denied a promotion but asked to remain in his current position. Big difference from the sob story hypothesized in the IP.

 

[chrisfont9]

First, Ben Cherington was offered the opportunity to work with Dave Dombrowski in the same capacity as Mike Hazen is now serving. Ben Cherington chose not to do so. One should not weep for Ben, who let his ego do the walking away. We shall see whether he ever gets another GM job.

Second, there is another list of players that makes up Ben Cherington's legacy:

Rusnay Castillo, $72.5 million
Allen Craig, $30.5 million
Pablo Samdoval, $90+ million
Justin Masterson, $10 million
AJ Pierzynski, $8 million.

Cherington took the entire assets of one of John Henry's funds and lit a match under it.

Tine has made the Porcello contract look like it may pay dividends and the Hanley contract not be a total disaster. But they each still have nutlike years to run.

Cherington's hit rate is not 100%, nobody's is. You're right about his choosing to go, though it's not fair to act like his authority was unchanged when he made that choice.

Anyway, the opening post was about windows being open, and I think we all agree there's a nice core here. I don't know if you can compare it to the 1990s Yankees or anything earlier -- team control is only six years, and the pitching side of things is still a pretty significant puzzle to solve. There might be an interesting question about how hard it is, 20 years later, to compete for pitching, with the competitive balance that exists now. Back then the Yankees just bought whomever they wanted. But there's a chance, if the Sox can extend their young core and they continue to play at really high levels, that we have a long-term open window and the pitching will work out just fine at times.

 

[gryoung]

I recall several years back when a young Theo Epstein was asked about his vision/strategy for building the Sox. His comment was along the lines of duplicating what the Yankees had done.

1. Develop a core of young talent (Williams/Jeter/Posada) that will be there for years
2. Supplement this core with selective free agents

This is what the Yanks did during their latest glory years run. They went the other way after a while and signed more FA which led to their decline.

Looks like Theo's plan has been carried forward by other GMs on the team -- likely with strong encouragement from ownership to stay that course.

 

[Wayapman]

First, Ben Cherington was offered the opportunity to work with Dave Dombrowski in the same capacity as Mike Hazen is now serving. Ben Cherington chose not to do so. One should not weep for Ben, who let his ego do the walking away. We shall see whether he ever gets another GM job.

Second, there is another list of players that makes up Ben Cherington's legacy:

Rusnay Castillo, $72.5 million
Allen Craig, $30.5 million
Pablo Samdoval, $90+ million
Justin Masterson, $10 million
AJ Pierzynski, $8 million.

Cherington took the entire assets of one of John Henry's funds and lit a match under it.

Tine has made the Porcello contract look like it may pay dividends and the Hanley contract not be a total disaster. But they each still have nutlike years to run.

To be fair, Cherington also orchestrated the Punto trade. Had he not, this team would have been saddled under massive payroll obligations for years (Carl Crawford)

Overall, it was a mixed bag

 

[PapaSox]

Nice opening thread. I think Chistfont9 is right on the money as to this team comparred to what the Yankees built. If pitchers such as EdRod keep developing then this could be a real solid team for 5 to 10 years. A key FA or two added here and there and I think the Sox can maintain a long success stint.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

To be fair, Cherington also orchestrated the Punto trade. Had he not, this team would have been saddled under massive payroll obligations for years (Carl Crawford)

Overall, it was a mixed bag

To be even more fair .. That trade was initiated at ownership level .. Either Henry or Luchino IIRC. Cherington just worked out the details of what was coming back.