Minor league thread 2023

JM3

JM3

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JM3 said:
June to September:

46-185
20 walks (9.8%)
61 strikeouts (29.8%)
11 doubles
1 triple
13 homers
1 HBP
0 SF

.249/.325/.530, .855 OPS

So yeah, a pretty substantial improvement.
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For reference purposes, among players with more than 44 PAs (so excluding Story, Teel & Roman SSS), Nathan Hickey led Portland in OPS with .826. So .855 for 4 months is pretty, pretty legit & reason for some optimism.
 
Chris "HEN-ri-KAY"

Chris "HEN-ri-KAY"

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I enjoy the look on Andrew's face when the players mention their fried chicken place of choice, I watch it every time. As for the FF talk, I go w the flow of the conversation. There's players that like FF and there was a league w players in it. We talk about for maybe 2 mins if that. But hey.. thanks for listening.
 
JM3

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Chris "HEN-ri-KAY" said:
I enjoy the look on Andrew's face when the players mention their fried chicken place of choice, I watch it every time. As for the FF talk, I go w the flow of the conversation. There's players that like FF and there was a league w players in it. We talk about for maybe 2 mins if that. But hey.. thanks for listening.
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I get it, & you mostly do a great job & it's gotten better, but I think it was Matthew Berry who said there's nothing people like hearing about less than other people's fantasy football teams. I think it was the Cade Feeney pod where there was like 10 minutes of fantasy football & Vikings talk & it definitely wasn't that much here, but I do zone out & stop paying attention during those pieces.

& I love the SN <3
 
JM3

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I'm also not really one to talk. Probably 80%+ of my posts in here are self-indulgent nonsense about prospects that no one GAF about.
 
Chris "HEN-ri-KAY"

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JM3 said:
I'm also not really one to talk. Probably 80%+ of my posts in here are self-indulgent nonsense about prospects that no one GAF about.
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Ahh, I enjoy reading your posts, hell, I named my account off your recommendation of HEN-ri-KAY lol All kidding aside, we truly appreciate the feedback and support. It goes a long way.
 
JM3

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Chris "HEN-ri-KAY" said:
Ahh, I enjoy reading your posts, hell, I named my account off your recommendation of HEN-ri-KAY lol All kidding aside, we truly appreciate the feedback and support. It goes a long way.
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It's my pleasure & I hope you hang around & post. It's been great having Ed & Parker around.

& yeah...I love that the pod exists & I love learning more about the prospects (I think it helps some with the Top 258 list), & it's really awkward saying negative things about people who are here & who you appreciate & respect, but I try to just be honest in all directions.
 
Chris "HEN-ri-KAY"

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JM3 said:
It's my pleasure & I hope you hang around & post. It's been great having Ed & Parker around.

& yeah...I love that the pod exists & I love learning more about the prospects (I think it helps some with the Top 258 list), & it's really awkward saying negative things about people who are here & who you appreciate & respect, but I try to just be honest in all directions.
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I'll def. post more, I just got to get used to the flow of how this site works. Lots of good banter and conversations on here.
 
JM3

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I can't read this per se, but apparently this J.J. Cooper Rule 5 preview includes Drohan, Fernandez & Cellucci as possible R5 candidates.

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/mlb-rule-5-draft-preview-2023/

Haven't heard much buzz about Brendan Cellucci compared to guys like Gambrell & Penrod, but he did finish the season strong. I could have sworn I had posted the Cellucci improvement stats, but can't find them. Anyway, his switch came about exactly a month later than Binelas.

April - June:
17 games
23 IP
23 ER
32 hits
23 walks
26 strikeouts

9.00 ERA, 2.39 WHIP, 9.0 bb/9, 10.2 k/9

July - September:
20 games
28 IP
7 ER
28 hits
10 walks
37 strikeouts

2.25 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 3.2 bb/9, 11.9 k/9
 
JM3

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This Tigers-centric page notes CJ Liu & Angel Bastardo as interesting R5 starting pitcher targets:

RHP Chih-Jung Liu
The Red Sox signed Liu out of Taiwan in 2019, when he was already 20 years old. That means he’s older than the average international signee being considered in the Rule 5 draft, and will turn 25 years old not long after next season begins. FanGraphs called out Liu as the most likely of Boston’s unprotected guys to be selected on draft day. If he is picked, the plan will likely be to put him in relief to hide his mediocre command and hope that his stuff takes a jump.

The anchor of Liu’s pitch mix is his fastball. He’s an excellent on-mound athlete and he can rip it as high as 98 mph. It plays down a little from that velocity because he’s on the smaller side for a starting pitcher, but it’s still plenty enough to bust the chops of any hitter who gets too comfortable in the box. Between that high heat and a slider that is already bumping against plus grades, he struck out a ton of guys in Double-A and even threw a no-hitter in May.

What holds him back is largely feel-related. He came stateside with a splitter that flashed plenty of movement and upside, but he struggled to gain consistency with it. He shelved that in 2021 in favor of developing a curve or standard changeup, but neither of those really took hold, and he went back to his original three pitch mix. Liu will still utilize the occasional soft, loopy curve, but it doesn’t have a true place in his repertoire.

Additionally, while athleticism is generally a decent precursor for development of command, it never happened for Liu. His delivery, which involves a small head whack, is far from optimized for extension or repeatability. That means he leaves too many fastballs in the meat of the zone and doesn’t have the perceived velocity gain to get away with it. As a result, he got bullied in Double-A when his command was off with little help from his defense, finishing with a high walk rate and an inflated ERA.
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RHP Angel Bastardo, Boston Red Sox
Bastardo went both unprotected and unselected in last year’s Rule 5 draft, but he had a breakout season in 2023 and deserves a second look. There were few starting pitchers anywhere in baseball who kept pace with Bastardo’s strikeout rates in 2023 (although fellow Red Sox prospect Chih-Jung Liu was one of the few who bested him in both K/9 and K%). He will not be immediately ready for a spot in an MLB rotation, but I have more faith in him eventually becoming a starter than most of the players I’ve talked about here already.

The first thing most people look to when collecting data on a pitching prospect is his velocity. Bastardo sits in the mid-90s and will consistently reach 97-98 mph with his fastball, but it’s really his changeup that is the money pitch. It’s about ten miles per hour slower than the fastball and it has similar armside run with late diving action. He also throws a 12-6 curveball that has counterintuitively low spin and a slider that he developed last offseason. Both pitches can get whiffs, but the curveball is more advanced.

Bastardo could benefit from adding a two-seam or sinker variation to his fastball. The high velocity version has too little movement to function on its own, which is why the changeup is so crucial to his success. Adding another pitch with a similar movement profile in a distinct velocity band — maybe sitting in the 91-93 mph range — could help keep hitters off balance.
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https://www.blessyouboys.com/2023/11/20/23163484/detroit-tigers-2023-rule-5-draft-cole-wilcox-ian-bedell-taylor-dollard
 
JM3

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Let's see if they did the thing where their rankings get more like mine.

This was a post from Mike Andrews:

End-of-the Season Rankings are live: www.soxprospects.com
(You may have to hit refresh)

Graduates
Enmannuel Valdez graduated

Debuts
Hector Olivarez debuts at No. 49
Elvis Soto debuts at 55
Connelly Early debuts at 56
Luis Cohen debuts at 58
Hayden Mullins debuts at 59

Notable Risers
Roman Anthony up to 1 from 2
Kyle Teel up to 3 from 5
Wilyer Abreu up to 8 from 12
Chase Meidroth up to 12 from 16
Allan Castro up to 13 from 17
Eddinson Paulino up to 16 from 20
Yordanny Monegro up to 20 from 25
Hunter Dobbins up to 23 from 28
Franklin Arias up to 30 from 43
Christopher Troye up to 33 from 39
Felix Cepeda up to 46 from 54
Reidis Sena up to 47 from 55

Notable Fallers
Brandon Walter from 15 to 32
Matthew Lugo from 45 to 53

Notes
-As you might notice, there haven't been any regular season games since our last update on September 8. This month's changes are based on a fulsome review of our own internal reports, a deep dive into 2023 season peripheral stats, discussions with scouts, reports from Fall/Winter ball, and some consideration towards player contract/roster status. We tend to "start fresh" with this update and don't just shuffle players from where they were last month.
-We will be updating multiple scouting reports over the course of today to align with the update.
-We removed Brainer Bonaci from the rankings due to the uncertainty of his status
-As always, please keep in mind that just because a player moved a couple spots in either direction it does not necessarily mean we think more or less of that player at the time of that given update compared to last month. New prospects debut in the rankings, players graduate, other prospects make big jumps around that player. It's all relative. The player grade may not have changed.
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I think it's lazy not to rank Bonaci, but I get it.

Debuts
Hector Olivarez debuts at No. 49 - I was thinking he'd be around 50, but I haven't looked at it yet.

Elvis Soto debuts at 55 - I had him #104. He seemed a bit overmatched this year. Definitely willing to look into it, though.

Connelly Early debuts at 56 - I have him #79. He hasn't thrown a pitch yet. I'm cool with my ranking.

Luis Cohen debuts at 58 - I have an irrational love for LuCo but only have him #93 because they didn't even think enough of him to let him pitch in A-Ball this year. Will revisit.

Hayden Mullins debuts at 59 - I like it. I had him #117 but was planning on moving him up probably around 30 spots. He has such little proof of concept, though, & next year will be huge.

Notable Risers
Roman Anthony up to 1 from 2 - I still have him #2 & will continue to through the off season barring a Mayer injury setback.

Kyle Teel up to 3 from 5 - Already had him 3.

Wilyer Abreu up to 8 from 12 - Have him 10. Pretty sure he'll stay there.

Chase Meidroth up to 12 from 16 - I have him 21 & don't really agree, but I like the take.

Allan Castro up to 13 from 17 - Seems aggressive (I have him 18), but sure why not?

Eddinson Paulino up to 16 from 20 - Seems right. I had him 17.

Yordanny Monegro up to 20 from 25 - Smh someday they'll get there lol. I have him #7.

Hunter Dobbins up to 23 from 28 - I have him 20.

Franklin Arias up to 30 from 43 - They're almost there! Have him 27.

Christopher Troye up to 33 from 39 - Meh. I'm comfortable with him at 38 (although I have no idea how the next rankings will break out).

Felix Cepeda up to 46 from 54 - I'm pretty comfortable where I had him at 53.

Reidis Sena up to 47 from 55 - This seems kinda silly on the surface. I already didn't see what they saw when they had him 55. I have him 101.

Notable Fallers
Brandon Walter from 15 to 32 - It's a start. I have him 58.

Matthew Lugo from 45 to 53 - It's a start. I have him 73.
 
JM3

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Yeah...I don't really see anything new in the Flying Elvii's #s I didn't see before.

In '22 in his age 18 season in the DSL he was ok...23.2 IP, 3.42 ERA, 3.12 xFIP, 32.6% k, 9.5% bb.

In '23 in his age 19 season he started in the FCL & was ok...24.1 IP, 3.70 ERA, 4.95 xFIP, 21.4% k, 11.2% bb.

& then was promoted to A-Ball & was ok...24 IP, 4.88 ERA, 4.15 xFIP, 23.8% k, 9.5% bb.

It is kind of interesting that they saw something in him to get him to A-Ball this season over guys I thought were more interesting. But I'll think about it some more later.
 
Chainsaw318

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JM3 said:
I think it's lazy not to rank Bonaci, but I get it.
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I would think you have to take the angle that he’s not likely to play for the organization again until you see something to the contrary, right?

There’s very few versions of being on the type of suspension he’s on that isn’t incredibly serious.

It’s also consistent I would guess with Noah Song, who they pulled from at least the top 30 once his service began.
 
JM3

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Chainsaw318 said:
I would think you have to take the angle that he’s not likely to play for the organization again until you see something to the contrary, right?

There’s very few versions of being on the type of suspension he’s on that isn’t incredibly serious.

It’s also consistent I would guess with Noah Song, who they pulled from at least the top 30 once his service began.
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Well, if he has even a 5% chance of playing again, that's more valuable than several people on the list. But yeah, I totally get it.

& I assume you say Top 30 because that's what they include on the history page. I have no clue, though.

https://soxprospects.com/history.htm
 
JM3

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Here is an explanation from James Dunne of SP on the Meidroth rise:

After a pretty nasty slump in the early summer he was really good again at the end of the year. .283/.433/.396 from 8/8 onward. He's not the most physical-looking guy, and I was getting a little concerned that he was wearing down during the slump, so being able to get through that full season and make an adjustment to be playing well in the last quarter was really a positive development. A big thing was also that his defense went from a concern to a potential positive. He's not a rangy guy but he's got really good hands, a quick release, he's really good at getting good jumps on pop-ups which bodes well if he needs to play the outfield in a utility role. The bat control and pitch recognition were as good as hoped. He's very good at not chasing bad pitches, he's not getting himself out. A development point in year two is going to be hitting the ball with authority more consistently.
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I still don't really see it, but that's ok.
 
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nighthob

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JM3 said:
Red Sox hired Mason McRae as an amateur scouting assistant.

View: https://twitter.com/mason_mcrae/status/1724231492581097517

Apparently he's a college student at VCU & appears heavily into analytics.
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I meant to address this earlier, this thought in another thread reminded me…

OCD SS said:
I get that (it’s basic sell high), my point is just that it’s ascribing an opinion to him, rather than the whole FO/ process they have in place (which Breslow said he expected to lean on heavily). I think if we see deals for top prospects, they will be based around even value and positional scarcity; if they wind up looking clairvoyant on a player’s path up the ladder, that will be more because prospects tend to flame out…
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McRae seems to look more fully at pitching numbers than hitting, but the hiring still makes me nervous because the hitting evaluations read like my NBA prospect posts from a decade ago. There’s a lot of talk about toolsy players and not a lot of Statcast data. And given how readily available the Statcast data is I’m a little confused as to why he’s so light on it. It’s not like the NBA equivalent.

A decade ago I looked at length/athletic testing (the hoops equivalent to “toolsy”) as the most important thing regardless of the other numbers. But you want to talk about guys I scout now, I might not be able to give you his Synergy #s (Synergy accounts are an expense I can’t justify for a hobby), but I can thoroughly break down the actual pieces of their game to give you my guesses as to what they might look like. For example, I had a long running debate about Aaron Nesmith’s defense, I thought he was quick enough to play solid D if someone could correct the truly atrocious defensive footwork, and this year his footwork is much improved (still not great, but his feet are no longer pointed in the wrong direction 100% of the time) and his D suddenly looks OK, and he seems to have rounded into I a perfectly good 3&D guy.

With McRae, his evaluation of Anthony is “possible left handed side of a platoon”, which was reached by looking at Anthony’s numbers against lefties in his first full pro season. Which is a tiny sample size. He doesn’t look at trends within the sample size, of course those samples are even tinier, but they’re all fucking tiny sample sizes. Teams generally protect LHH in their first full pro seasons, they expose them slowly to LHP. So we’re not really really going to be able to answer this question for another season. But the trends are good (he was hitting LHP better at the end of the year in AA than he was in Salem). Other amateurs creating top 100 lists looked at Statcast hitting numbers. Because those numbers are pretty important in baseball. Hard contact%, barrel %, line drive%, are all associated with higher BABIP.

tl;dr I sort of hope that McRae's hitter evaluations aren't part of Breslow's evaluation of hitters.
 
nighthob

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At the moment the AAA stats are freely available (via Baseball Savant). Rotowire has batted ball numbers for a larger selection if you subscribe.
 
AlNipper49

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I don't see any reason to put Anthony over Mayer just yet. Mayer was a little banged up and Anthony played about as well as a 19 year old could play. All things the same I am still most optimistic about MM.
 
JM3

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Merloni agrees with SP.

View: https://twitter.com/LouMerloni/status/1727377033787785397


It's a really close call for me, but the fluidity with which Mayer plays baseball is just so impressive to me, & the fact that he's a SS & should be able to stick there keeps him #1 to me.

ROMAN is great & has a much more CAPPABLE name, which is important, but I'll still take Mayer barring further set back for the shoulder injury, & of course subject to change next season with more data.

What would one even cap?

MARCELO
MAYER
CELLO
SELLO

If he pronounced it like the instrument I think CELLO would be fun, but he doesn't.

Anyway, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
 
JM3

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& yet YORDANNY is still ranked way too low.

View: https://twitter.com/EdHand89/status/1727858547478733088

Summation: Potential up-and-down, multi-inning relief arm. Ceiling of a back-end starter. High variance arm who is still learning to pitch. Still very projectable and has already added velocity, even within the season. Could gain even more velocity given how loose his arm is and the remaining projection in his frame. Stuff took a significant step forward in 2023, making him a much more interesting prospect. Needs to show more consistency and improve command and control as he moves up the ladder. Fastball quality could stand to improve, as could creating separation between his two breaking balls. Has dabbled with a changeup in the past and adding something like that or a splitter could give him a better chance to stick in the starting rotation. Pitches with emotion and swagger.
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https://soxprospects.com/players/monegro-yordanny.htm
 
JM3

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Breslow: It's easier to teach velo then command.

Also Breslow: Signs pitchers with awful command.

I'm still into it, though.
 
JM3

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Benitez is currently playing for Caguas in the Puerto Rican Winter League.

6 games
7.2 IP
0 runs
4 hits
3 walks
9 strikeouts

0.00 ERA, 0.91 WHIP, 3.5 bb/9, 10.6 k/9
 
JM3

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It's amazing to me that people on Twxtter are mad about an MLFA signing. Glad I'm not actually on there.
 
JM3

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JM3 said:
Game #4 in the books for Victor Santos in LIDOM...

5 IP
0 runs
6 hits
0 walks
2 strikeouts

On the season...

13.2 IP
1 run
12 hits
2 walks
9 strikeouts

0.66 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, 1.3 bb/9, 5.9 k/9
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Victor Santos with a 5th game, 3rd start.

5 IP
1 run
3 hits
1 walk
7 strikeouts

On the season...

18.2 IP
2 runs
15 hits
3 walks
16 strikeouts

0.96 ERA, 0.96 WHIP, 1.4 bb/9, 7.7 k/9
 
JM3

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I don't think I agree with #13 Allan Castro, but let's see what SP has to say about it...

View: https://twitter.com/SoxProspects/status/1728221457304748531


Summation: Has the ceiling of an average regular. Wide range of potential outcomes as a lot of his value is tied up in his bat. Projectable frame and switch-hitting ability give him a leg up. Has already shown a solid approach and ability to make consistent, hard contact. If he can get stronger and tap into his raw power, could become a very intriguing prosepct. Has been on the radar for a few years, as scouts identified him as one of the more interesting hitters on a loaded 2022 FCL team.
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Yeahhh... I'm going to actually maybe move Castro down from #17 in my next ranking.

So it seems like he's not cut out for anything but LF...

Field: Fringy instincts, average range. Routes are a work in progress. Has played all three outfield positions, but looks best suited for an outfield corner, especially as he physically matures. Potential fringe-average defender in center field and average in the corner outfield.

Arm: Average arm strength.
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This year he played:

51 games in CF
28 games in LF
19 games in RF
15 games at DH

Castro is a switch hitter, but he doesn't seem particularly viable as an RHH, albeit in a small sample size this year:

RHH - .210/.319/.290, .610 OPS in 72 PAs
LHH - .270/.376/.425, .802 OPS in 420 PAs

Castro is an OK base runner:

Run: Average speed. Takes some time to get going, but can go from first to third on a single. Likely to get slower as he physically matures. Not a major stolen base threat.
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He was 19 of 25 steals this past season.

So he has a couple average tools, but to be a valuable MLB player, he'll need to be an above average hitter.

'21 DSL - 110 wRC+ (194 PAs)
'22 FCL - 122 wRC+ (141 PAs)
'22 A-Ball - 88 wRC+ (38 PAs)
'23 A-Ball - 121 wRC+ (306 PAs)
'23 High-A - 119 wRC+ (186 PAs)

These are all fine, the most impressive being the success at Greenville as a 20 y/o.

But among players in their age 20 or younger season at Greenville this year...

ROMAN .981 OPS
Blaze .918 OPS
Mayer .890 OPS
Bonaci .825 OPS
Castro .801 OPS
Paulino .759 OPS

Rosario, Ugueto, Coffey & Romero were worse. But anyway, the point is that he was good, but not great. He feels more like a guy who is going to stall out a bit than a guy that is going to take a huge jump as he seems somewhat limited by a lack of top notch athleticism.

I think Castro v. Paulino is an interesting ranking discussion, but they have Paulino 17th, 4 spots behind. I might cover that debate & why I think Paulino is a better prospect tomorrow.

I'm also have to get into my issues with ranking Hickey 16th soon.
 
JM3

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nighthob said:
You and I are hobbyists. We're not looking for jobs as professional scouts.
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True. I missed my analytics window around 1999 when I was doing labor economics regressions on the correlation between different stats & NBA salaries, & other nonsense.
 
Heating up in the bullpen

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JM3 said:
I don't think I agree with #13 Allan Castro, but let's see what SP has to say about it...

View: https://twitter.com/SoxProspects/status/1728221457304748531




Yeahhh... I'm going to actually maybe move Castro down from #17 in my next ranking.

So it seems like he's not cut out for anything but LF...
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Seems like trade bait. Might be more valuable as a corner (LF/RF) outfielder to any team but the Red Sox, since we need a centerfielder in RF.
 
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Heating up in the bullpen said:
Seems like trade bait. Might be more valuable as a corner (LF/RF) outfielder to any team but the Red Sox, since we need a centerfielder in RF.
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If another team values him as highly as SP does, I would be happy to move him for value. I'm not sure he has the arm to play RF in different stadiums either. & I'm not convinced his hit tool is a carrying tool.
 
AlNipper49

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JM3 said:
Looking for stuff on Castro, I came across these scouting reports. They aren't necessarily the most in depth & they seem to come from some random guy who Tweets a lot about fantasy baseball, but figured I'd post the ones on Castro & Jedixson Paez anyway.

View: https://twitter.com/UnchartedFields/status/1719824434130035067


View: https://twitter.com/UnchartedFields/status/1722021095211946493
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I didn't get a chance to see Castro much after he was called up but he struck me as a very adept player. I like that scouting report, it feels right to me to look at him as a 4th outfielder type eventually. Incredibly valuable, that's 5m/year that we can spend elsewhere.
 
Chainsaw318

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JM3 said:
I don't think I agree with #13 Allan Castro, but let's see what SP has to say about it...

View: https://twitter.com/SoxProspects/status/1728221457304748531


Yeahhh... I'm going to actually maybe move Castro down from #17 in my next ranking.

So it seems like he's not cut out for anything but LF...



This year he played:

51 games in CF
28 games in LF
19 games in RF
15 games at DH

Castro is a switch hitter, but he doesn't seem particularly viable as an RHH, albeit in a small sample size this year:

RHH - .210/.319/.290, .610 OPS in 72 PAs
LHH - .270/.376/.425, .802 OPS in 420 PAs

Castro is an OK base runner:



He was 19 of 25 steals this past season.

So he has a couple average tools, but to be a valuable MLB player, he'll need to be an above average hitter.

'21 DSL - 110 wRC+ (194 PAs)
'22 FCL - 122 wRC+ (141 PAs)
'22 A-Ball - 88 wRC+ (38 PAs)
'23 A-Ball - 121 wRC+ (306 PAs)
'23 High-A - 119 wRC+ (186 PAs)

These are all fine, the most impressive being the success at Greenville as a 20 y/o.

But among players in their age 20 or younger season at Greenville this year...

ROMAN .981 OPS
Blaze .918 OPS
Mayer .890 OPS
Bonaci .825 OPS
Castro .801 OPS
Paulino .759 OPS

Rosario, Ugueto, Coffey & Romero were worse. But anyway, the point is that he was good, but not great. He feels more like a guy who is going to stall out a bit than a guy that is going to take a huge jump as he seems somewhat limited by a lack of top notch athleticism.

I think Castro v. Paulino is an interesting ranking discussion, but they have Paulino 17th, 4 spots behind. I might cover that debate & why I think Paulino is a better prospect tomorrow.

I'm also have to get into my issues with ranking Hickey 16th soon.
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I thought that SP take on Castro was similar to Anthony, in that the underlying numbers in low-offense Salem heralded the move to Greenville, and he was as good or better in Greenville.

The defense seems lesser than Anthony’s, but if he can play center now, I don’t know that he’s immediately LF only. RF at Fenway is big, but I dont feel players out there have not always had to be elite CF types to be successful, like a Trot Nixon.
 
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JM3

JM3

often quoted
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
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AlNipper49 said:
I didn't get a chance to see Castro much after he was called up but he struck me as a very adept player. I like that scouting report, it feels right to me to look at him as a 4th outfielder type eventually. Incredibly valuable, that's 5m/year that we can spend elsewhere.
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The question is more one of one of is 4th OF his absolute ceiling or is there more upside there? Because for a guy this young & this far away, there is always going to be a fairly wide range of outcomes. If it's 4th OF to never makes it, that's ok, but not very valuable. I feel like the range has to be more average starter to up & down guy to justify ranking him 13.
 
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