Liverpool FC 2013-14: Pride Restored

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Dehere

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Have been in England for going on a month now and the coverage of this anniversary as well as the ongoing hearings in Liverpool has been stunning. Just amazing how pervasive it is. Yesterday I was having a late lunch in Chester which is about 30 miles from Liverpool and shortly before 3pm the bartender let it be known that the restaurant would be observing a moment of silence at 3:06pm. That made an impression on me. Even in NYC on the 9/11 anniversaries that kind of impromptu observation is rare. Last Saturday I attended the FA Cup semi at which 96 seats were set aside in remembrance. Prior to the match I was able to attend a lunch that was attended by some of the family members and at which Greg Dyke spoke with some passion about the duty the FA has to honor those lost and their families. On some level this is just symbolism but intuitively it felt to me like there was real conviction behind it. If you've followed sports for as long as most of us have I think you develop a good feel for when these ceremonies are perfunctory and when they're heartfelt. The momentum behind the current inquiry is palpable. As someone posted above, the court of public opinion doesn't get to render verdicts but it's almost unimaginable to think that the current proceedings won't result in some long-delayed justice.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Good stuff, Fletch -- I think I will watch the documentary next time around -- why the theme of blaming the victims resonates with me so much I don't know.  It puts me in a foul mood and I almost can't tolerate it.  I have a friend who does pro bono work for incarcerated parents who were accused 20 years ago of hurting or killing their children based on a junk science theory that has since been discredited.  He's been pretty successful working with various justice projects getting some of them exonerated, and more globally has done a great deal to bring attention to the issue.  The situation reminds me very much of the Hillsborough disaster -- you take a person who has an unspeakable tragedy visited on them, and then make it so much worse by throwing them in jail.  Seem like there are some parallels to Hillsborough -- there's a horrible tragedy, which is awful enough, and then you simply take the victims and eviscerate them further.  I don't know how he does the work he does in those cases, and it all just makes me want to scream or break something.
 
A minor thought about Mr. Rip's story below.  One thing I found fascinating when I went to my first game in England is how different the fan-day experience is from what we're accustomed to at sports venues in the USA.  I remember getting to White Hart Lane early to see a game -- the stadium probably holds upwards of high 30,000s or even 40,000.  Fifteen minutes before the game, the seats were empty, except for the visitors.  It was basically tourists like me and other likely non-regulars sitting like dorks in our seats in an empty stadium watching the sprinklers water the pitch.  By the first whistle, the stadium was completely full.  That's sort of the routine at the grounds I've visited.  In the US, they open the gates up to two hours before a game, and there is a steady filling of the stadium -- it peaks around 15 minutes before game time -- but there continue to be stragglers even for the first 30 minutes.  There is lots of wandering around sampling the food options, and hanging out in the concourses, getting beers, and the like.  At English footie grounds, at least in my experience, you don't enter the stadium before it's necessary -- you enter a gate near to your seat, grab your disgusting meat pie, and get to your seat for the start of the game.  There is no up and down for the next 50 minutes.  You sit, and then at halftime, you get your beer and take a pee, and then do it again.  I think in part that sort of approach is the result of the difference in the nature of the game from American sports -- there are no time outs, the timing runs like clockwork, and any particular minute could be the most important minute of the game.  Anyway, I don't know if that was the tradition 25 years ago, but I guess the point is the nature of the sport itself seems to lend to a more intensive burst of turnstyle activity than most USA sports.
 
The Allented Mr Ripley said:
During the course of the afternoon, a few guys from the table next to us struck up a conversation when they heard my American accent. At one point they asked me if there had ever been any serious crush at an American sporting event. I said no, there have never been any at all*. I explained that a lot of our events have been all-seater for a long time, and that's been a part of it, but even before that there were never any issues. It's just that the dynamic is so different, although I was in no position to explain why. My mother's from Scotland and I was raised a Celtic fan by my father (he was at the Ibrox disaster), so I can put my arms around the debate, but I'm not even remotely an expert. I said it's not that the American fan's passion is any less intense, but in Britain there are cultural, social and economic issues that are so intertwined with football that just don't exist in America. I was struggling to make any kind of analogy that would make sense to them, and in the heat of the moment and due to the several beers I'd had, I finally blurted out, "I mean they crammed you into fucking pens!"
 
 
 

SoxFanInCali

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Zomp said:
I know its only the morning after, but how is the doc being taken by liverpool boards?
They can't show it in England because of the hearings that are going on, but the reaction I've seen from people in other countries who watched it has been universally positive.
 

TheWinkleman

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
One matter troubles me a little, and I wonder what others think. It is the almost iconization of "96". Is there any discussion about how, in a way, it tends to diminish the effects of the tragedy?
 
I felt that was a theme of the film. At one point, Phil Scraton said - "The price of Hillsborough is not reducible to 96 people dying." That line was featured in the trailer too. I thought that was a great exclamation of the pervasive trauma of the tragedy. From the failures of the justice system and the media, which Scraton focused on more in his segments, to the damage suffered by survivors and those who lost family/friends - I really felt the collective anguish while watching this film.
 
The interviews expressed that best. On the subject of blaming victims, that resonates with me as well. One survivor in particular made an emphatic statement about it, which was one of the points that affected me the most. There were many powerful moments. Another that stood out to me was a brief story about a policeman who began sobbing during the tragedy when he was asked why they weren't doing more. And like SoxFanInCali, that moment with the close-ups really got to me.
 

cjdmadcow

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I've no idea when I'll get to see the film but I'd just like to thank those of you that have seen it for the thoughtful and considered comments you've subsequently made, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised on SoSH.
 
If one person - just one - changes their perception of that day and makes them realise that what happened on 15th April 1989 wasn't the fault of the fans then the film has served its purpose. There is still so much to be done but the feelings are so more positive than even 5 years ago.
 
Thank you.
 

Oklahoma Jones

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Sunderland gets the draw at City. As the Brits would say "GET THE FUCK INNNNNN!"

Beat Norwich, Crystal Palace, and Newcastle and don't lose at home to Chelsea Lately. I'll take those odds for a title.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Unreal. Sunderland draw City.
 
10 points from Norwich (A), Chelsea (H), Palace (A), and Newcastle (H) and the title is guaranteed.
 
edit: OJ beat me to it. Holy shit.
 

swiftaw

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Oklahoma Jones said:
Sunderland gets the draw at City. As the Brits would say "GET THE FUCK INNNNNN!"

Beat Norwich, Crystal Palace, and Newcastle and don't lose at home to Chelsea Lately. I'll take those odds for a title.
I'd say that the Norwich and Newcastle games should be reasonably straightforward but as Everton just found out, Palace could be tricky.
 

SoxFanInCali

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swiftaw said:
I'd say that the Norwich and Newcastle games should be reasonably straightforward but as Everton just found out, Palace could be tricky.
Definitely, that one has me worried.  The one nice thing is that their safety is pretty much guaranteed now, so they may not be quite as desperate as they were today.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Chelsea has its destiny in its own hands now too.  Still in line for a double, actually.  
 
What an amazing season.  
 
The Palace game actually could turn out not to matter.  If Liverpool win 6 points in the next two games, and City drops just one point, I believe Liverpool would win the league with a win at Palace or to Newcastle.
 

SoxFanInCali

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The important thing to take from today is that after a match like Sunday, it's tough not to have an emotional letdown afterwards.  Yes, Liverpool should beat Norwich, but the team at the foot of the table just took a point from (and almost beat!) City in their place.  If that can happen, anything can happen.  Get the 3 points Sunday, then worry about the Chelsea game.
 

swiftaw

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SoxFanInCali said:
The important thing to take from today is that after a match like Sunday, it's tough not to have an emotional letdown afterwards.  Yes, Liverpool should beat Norwich, but the team at the foot of the table just took a point from (and almost beat!) City in their place.  If that can happen, anything can happen.  Get the 3 points Sunday, then worry about the Chelsea game.
True, but give Sunderland some credit, they also gave Liverpool a scare a few games ago. 
 

doldmoose34

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The Allented Mr Ripley said:
 
I thought all of the commentary by the policemen who were there was riveting. One thing the documentary brought to my attention that I never knew before was the reassignment of South Yorkshire's Chief Superintendent Brain Mole a few weeks before the disaster. Mole was well-seasoned when it came to crowd control and football matches and was a football fan (as opposed to Duckenfield), so he was eminently more qualified to handle a lot of the nuances the post required.
 
The ex-policeman who pointed out that preventing the course of justice was a criminal offense followed it up with, "Maybe I'm just an old bobby, but I don't like criminals." That line really hit me.
I agree Kev, as tough as it was to watch the families and others who were there and survived, the cops on the show, speaking from the heart, who were handcuffed by incompetent leadership was almost as painful
 

Oklahoma Jones

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PedroSpecialK said:
edit: OJ beat me to it. Holy shit.
Yeah, I got excited.

Speaking of excited, I totally agree that this feels like 2004. There were always a lot of parallels between the Reds and the Sox, even before FSG bought them, but this really drives it home. Storied franchise looks to get King Kong off its back and stick it to their rivals in the process. What poetic justice would it be if Liverpool and United switch 1st and 7th?

Either way, this season has been tremendous fun, even for a relative noob like myself.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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This is pretty cool if you haven't seen it.  Interestingly, I think the yellow wall at Westfalonstadion is all standing for Bundesliga, but with the newer style safety standing rails. 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNtuW0NOw-M
 

Spacemans Bong

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There's nothing inherently wrong with terraces. You just need more standing rails, more entrances and exits, no pens, and police who give a damn. Germany is proof of that every week.
 
Fletcher talked about this, Hillsborough was the endgame of a lengthy campaign of demonization of working class people and one of their main interests, football. If you think football fans are people, Hillsborough doesn't happen.
 

Nick Kaufman

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Ok, I ll have to disagree there, because I think you re young and don't remember the 80s. Never mind the political side of things and the disgraceful state of Britain during the seventies with the Winter of Discontent being the nadir, there was a ton of hooliganism and shitty things happening by football fans back then with Heyzel being the nadir.  Hooligan violence was a real terrible thing and not something that was invented to demonize the working class.
 
The sliver lining of the Hilsborough disaster was the Taylor report which brought stadium modernization. This combined with more effective tactics to deal with violence is a big part why the Premier League is flourishing today and why it has become a global attraction. Germany followed similar steps and the Bundesliga is also flourishing.
 
If you want to look at where English football would be if it hadn't taken the steps they did, you should look at Italy. Italy had higher attendances in the 80s than England. But Italy didn't modernize its stadiums and it didn't deal with fan violence. As a result, attendance steadily declined though the past 25 years, all the while attendance steadily grew in England. Not to mention, they still get regular flare ups of fan violence.
 
Personally, I have first hand experience of the degeneracy that organized fandom can fall in from Greece, where we also haven't done anything to deal with these problems. Fan firms look more like organized armies and they do all kinds of shitty things to turn regular folk away. They throw stuff on the field - and stuff that can injure people-, they interrupt games when things don't go their way, they get into fights, there were  even instances where people got killed on non-game days during rival firm clashes. That's the scratch of the surface. Fan firms are rife with drug use, extremist groups like anarchists and neonazis try to gain roots and recruit there - and a lot of them do- a ton of the ring leaders are involved with organized crime and protection rackets.
 
That's why it wasn't a surprise to me when I read in Foer's book that Serbian and Croatian paramilitaries were composed to a large extent by members of football firms. I guess you can reject all of this as Balkan backwardness, but you can find phenomena like this all over Europe (Dutch hooligans anyone? ) and lest we forget... hooliganism originated in the UK. There's no demonisation there. Fan violence was a real thing. And for the most part is mostly over in England now.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Bill Buford's Among the Thugs is a worthwhile read on the subject of hooligan culture, crowd mentality, and football in the 1980s.
 
One of the points he makes is that hooliganism really wasn't a strictly working class phenomenon at all.  Lots of people at the time tried to draw this straight line between the supposed "decline of the British working class," Thatcherism, and outbursts of hooliganism, but the reality was much more complicated, with a lot of middle-to-upper-middle class kids drawn to it as well.  The notion of being part of a crowd in a way that sanctioned transgression appealed to a lot of people, regardless of their class background.
 

Nick Kaufman

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The notion of being part of a crowd in a way that sanctioned transgression appealed to a lot of people
 
 
That to me is the heart of the problem. There's a ton of sociological bullshit thrown around regarding football violence along with some sophomoric whining against police brutality, but while police tactics can be counter-productive, if the police adopts the right tactics and provide a credible threat that appropriate punishment is going to be meted out, football violence melts away. If OTOH, people melt into an anonymous crowd, that's when trouble starts brewing.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Aren't we dealing with 2 separate issues here? Yes, hooliganism in English football was a very serious problem with complex causes and horrifying results at times. I've read Among the Thugs as well, and it was sobering, to say the least.
 
BUT. What happened at Hillsborough wasn't a result of hooligan behavior, and the view of all football fans as little more than animals surely contributed to both the establishment of pens (all the better to lock the animals up), the lack of care taken in policing the ground that day, and the subsequent rush to blame the victims for the disaster (they're just thugs after all).
 

Nick Kaufman

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Aren't we dealing with 2 separate issues here? Yes, hooliganism in English football was a very serious problem with complex causes and horrifying results at times. I've read Among the Thugs as well, and it was sobering, to say the least.
 
BUT. What happened at Hillsborough wasn't a result of hooligan behavior, and the view of all football fans as little more than animals surely contributed to both the establishment of pens (all the better to lock the animals up), the lack of care taken in policing the ground that day, and the subsequent rush to blame the victims for the disaster (they're just thugs after all).
 
To me, they are not separate. Obviously in retrospect, the fans at Hilsborough were innocent and they experienced a grave injustice. However, the point is that people didn't think that fans were "animals" out of thin air.  There was so much history of fans causing trouble (for example, in Heyzel, Liverpool fans pelted rocks at Juventus fans who then run away and then got trampled in the process) that you re bound to get suspicious of all packs of fans traveling together.  To think that fans fucked it up is the operating assumption when you first hear of this sort of news. And the majority of the time this is the case as well.
 

Turrable

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What blows my mind is that it was Hillsborough, and not the Bradford fire five years earlier, that had to serve as the wake-up call regarding crowd safety. I guess it was a combination of poor timing (being like a month before Heysel) and the fact that it mainly drew attention to the flaws of the Safety at Sports Grounds Act (which for some reason didn't apply to third division stadiums). But everything you needed to see about the problem was here. They had a 75 year old wooden stand with no fire extinguishers because they were more afraid of hooligans than fucking fire. 56 people died -- imagine if they had been penned in like at Hillsborough? We're probably talking about thousands.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXRp3qzEPiI
 

DLew On Roids

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David Conn's book The Beautiful Game? mentions that when the Bradford fire was investigated, newspapers from the 1950s were found under some stands. And it was that way all over England. The denial of the humanity of football fans was a major issue in the 1980s, to be sure, but the structure of clubs as essentially local magnates' non-profit playthings also played into these tragedies. It was amateur hour in the boardroom Nd basic things like fire prevention were just ignored. No one considered anything as basic as risk management.
 

Granite Sox

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A couple of days late, but given the primary audience of SoSH, I thought I'd mention a point of interest from the memorial service earlier this week.

I happened to be in London on business and caught some of the news coverage of the memorial service on TV Tuesday night. As fletch mentioned up thread, there were some very nice speeches by Rodgers, Martinez, and others. There was also a large 96 created in the middle of the pitch by the placement of scarves representing each of the professional football teams in England and Europe.

There was one additional, non-football scarf placed within the 96... A Boston Red Sox scarf placed there by Liverpool Chairman Tom Werner.
 
 

 
 

cjdmadcow

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Norwich: Ruddy, Whittaker, Martin, Turner, Olsson, Snodgrass, Howson, Johnson, Redmond, Fer, Hooper.
Subs: van Wolfswinkel, Bunn, Gutierrez, Garrido, Ryan Bennett, Tettey, Murphy.
 
Liverpool: Mignolet, Johnson, Skrtel, Sakho, Flanagan, Allen, Gerrard, Lucas, Sterling, Suarez, Coutinho.
Subs: Brad Jones, Toure, Agger, Alberto, Aspas, Moses, Cissokho.
 
Referee: Andre Marriner
 
Is there a more appropriate day for Moses to score the winner?
 

DLew On Roids

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Are we sure this isn't being played at Anfield?  All the audio is picking up is Liverpool fans.  Poetry in motion, indeed.
 
Luis Suarez now has as many goals against Norwich this season as Norwich's leading scorers have in the league (5).
 

DLew On Roids

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Does he have more goals at Carrow Road over the past three seasons than any current member of the Norwich City squad?
 
Edit: I think he does...Suarez has 7, while Pilkington and Snodgrass both have 5.  GRANTHOLT! (14) would count if he were still at Norwich.
 
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